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Replying To bert09: "Has Andy settled on his best 15?" Don't buy the best 15 anymore. It's the best 20. Also often see a new guy suddenly get a chance. Think there was only a handful that started every league game. The 15 that finish are as important or probably more so than the 15 that start in the modern game.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 02/11/2020 19:15:36
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Replying To ASaminthehand: "I tend to agree with you about about getting strong athletic men on the pitch! I'd be looking at the likes of Jack Flynn from Ratoath - brilliant with the 20s last year and carried that form into the Senior Championship with Ratoath - big strong lad but as he showed he can score and play too! He is in the panel now too!" Ye seen him final day.the likes of him im talking about.hopefully im wrong.
Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 496 - 02/11/2020 19:41:09
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Replying To royaldunne: "Don't buy the best 15 anymore. It's the best 20. Also often see a new guy suddenly get a chance. Think there was only a handful that started every league game. The 15 that finish are as important or probably more so than the 15 that start in the modern game." In Fairness Dunners thats a great point ! Huge importance on subs coming in
grahamc9897 (Meath) - Posts: 1175 - 02/11/2020 20:47:51
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Our biggest issue in last 24 months has been upfront. We saw that in the leinster final 2019. Since Tyrone 2018 game our defence has improved substantially. While not as good as 80s or 90s defence where you had two footballers of the year in the defence. In era where there is serious shortage of great defenders nationwide compared to 90s and 00s where sweepers and blanket defences have made defenders lazier and have destroyed the art of defending, we have a good defence. We were shaky at the back for years. We are no longer shakey at the back. We have one of better defences in the game. You look at kerry or Galway they have problems at the back. Tyrone have great system but as Colm O Rourke said on Sunday they dont have great individual defenders they had in 90s. Counties at are level kildare and Armagh and particularly Armagh are poor at the back. The Dublin forwards after leinster final told Bernard Flynn and journalist that toughest defenders they faced in last few years were Meath. We did keep them lowest score in the championship in first half in 9 years. Keoghan, McGill, Harnan, Two McEntees, Lavin, Gallagher, Two Ryans, McCoy, Hickey, Harkin, Clarke, Kane, B Conlon are a good set of defenders.
Problem is an upfront. However is there signs in last 2 games that thats changing. Just look at the below scores v Top teams in last 24 months
2019 v Donegal Meath scored 0 -14
2019 v kildare Meath scored 1-9
2019 v Dublin Meath scored 0-4
2019 v Donegal Meath scored 1-13
2019 v Mayo Meath scored 0-14
2019 v Kerry Meath scored 2-13
2020 v Tyrone Meath scored 1-9
2020 v Donegal Meath scored 0 -7
2020 v Mayo Meath scored 2-5
2020 v kerry Meath scored 2-13
2020 v Galway Meath scored 1- 12
2020 v Dublin Meath scored 0-19
2020 v Monaghan Meath scored 1- 17
Against div 2 teams we were scoring well but up to the break for 24 months we were getting on average 13 to 14 points v top teams, 4 times we got 13 or 14 points v top teams and a 4 point disaster v Dublin. Yet in Dublin game recently we scored 0- 19 and against Monaghan in Clones which has being bogey ground for Meath for a decade, we scored 1- 17. We seem to be getting closer 20 points in last two games. Where is that improvement coming from. Where are these scores coming from we didnt have last year.
They are Shane Walsh, Jordan Morris and Thomas Reilly on the frees. Neitheir of the 3 started v Dubs last year.
V Dubs 2020
Shane Walsh scored 4 points all from play
Jordan Morris scored 2 points from play as sub
Thomas Reilly scored 6 points from frees
V Monaghan
Jordan Morris scored 7 points as a sub
Shane Walsh scored 1 point
Thomas Reilly scored 4 points ( 3 from frees)
So these 3 players in last 2 games v div 1 opposition have scored 24 points between them. None of them started v Dublin last year.
And our bench is making a bigger impact. Last super 8 kerry Mayo Donegal bench made a bigger impact then us.
In last 2 games
V Dubs
Dublin bench scored 0
Meath bench scored 4
V Monaghan
Monaghan bench scored 1
Meath bench scored 8
Last two games
Dublin and Monaghan scored 1 from their benchs v us
Meath scored 12 points from the bench v them
Forwards like Jordan Morris Joey Wallace James Conlon and Donal lenihan are offering a threat we have never had before on the bench.
It feels that we are now scoring 0-19 and 1-17 v top tops our forward play and free taking is improvinh. If we can score 20 points or plus v top teams I think thats when we will start winning v top team. I think we are improving upfront. Jordan Morris Shane Walsh Thomas Reilly are the present and future best trio upfront all still young forwards Morris is 20, Walsh 19 and O Reilly 23. With J Conlon Wallace and Lenihan as back up and also real options to start. While young Lynch from Trim who is on panel is also a prospect. As well as luke Mitchell, Jack Flynn and minor captain Eoghan Frayne and few others like Curtis who also on the panel. If we 2 or 3 of these young talents were to really step up as top class forwards we would really be going places. You can never say with young players you just know. But we definately are more dangerous uofront in last two games then we have anytime under McEntee and remeber we missed 3 goals chances v Dubs and 3 more v Monaghan.
With more experience this area of goal taking will improve. Shane Walsh is a proper modern full forward, a real prospect, Thomas O Reilly is developing into all round forward who can take frees and lead the line and score from play and Jordan Morris is just out and out classy finisher something we havent had probaly since Stephem Bray retired. James Conlon is also exciting talent a real poacher / finisher also who could form a good trio upfront with Walsh O Reilly or Morris. I think there are signs an area of concerm the forwards is improving very strongly.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 03/11/2020 08:23:32
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Replying To Furlong1949: "Our biggest issue in last 24 months has been upfront. We saw that in the leinster final 2019. Since Tyrone 2018 game our defence has improved substantially. While not as good as 80s or 90s defence where you had two footballers of the year in the defence. In era where there is serious shortage of great defenders nationwide compared to 90s and 00s where sweepers and blanket defences have made defenders lazier and have destroyed the art of defending, we have a good defence. We were shaky at the back for years. We are no longer shakey at the back. We have one of better defences in the game. You look at kerry or Galway they have problems at the back. Tyrone have great system but as Colm O Rourke said on Sunday they dont have great individual defenders they had in 90s. Counties at are level kildare and Armagh and particularly Armagh are poor at the back. The Dublin forwards after leinster final told Bernard Flynn and journalist that toughest defenders they faced in last few years were Meath. We did keep them lowest score in the championship in first half in 9 years. Keoghan, McGill, Harnan, Two McEntees, Lavin, Gallagher, Two Ryans, McCoy, Hickey, Harkin, Clarke, Kane, B Conlon are a good set of defenders.
Problem is an upfront. However is there signs in last 2 games that thats changing. Just look at the below scores v Top teams in last 24 months
2019 v Donegal Meath scored 0 -14
2019 v kildare Meath scored 1-9
2019 v Dublin Meath scored 0-4
2019 v Donegal Meath scored 1-13
2019 v Mayo Meath scored 0-14
2019 v Kerry Meath scored 2-13
2020 v Tyrone Meath scored 1-9
2020 v Donegal Meath scored 0 -7
2020 v Mayo Meath scored 2-5
2020 v kerry Meath scored 2-13
2020 v Galway Meath scored 1- 12
2020 v Dublin Meath scored 0-19
2020 v Monaghan Meath scored 1- 17
Against div 2 teams we were scoring well but up to the break for 24 months we were getting on average 13 to 14 points v top teams, 4 times we got 13 or 14 points v top teams and a 4 point disaster v Dublin. Yet in Dublin game recently we scored 0- 19 and against Monaghan in Clones which has being bogey ground for Meath for a decade, we scored 1- 17. We seem to be getting closer 20 points in last two games. Where is that improvement coming from. Where are these scores coming from we didnt have last year.
They are Shane Walsh, Jordan Morris and Thomas Reilly on the frees. Neitheir of the 3 started v Dubs last year.
V Dubs 2020
Shane Walsh scored 4 points all from play
Jordan Morris scored 2 points from play as sub
Thomas Reilly scored 6 points from frees
V Monaghan
Jordan Morris scored 7 points as a sub
Shane Walsh scored 1 point
Thomas Reilly scored 4 points ( 3 from frees)
So these 3 players in last 2 games v div 1 opposition have scored 24 points between them. None of them started v Dublin last year.
And our bench is making a bigger impact. Last super 8 kerry Mayo Donegal bench made a bigger impact then us.
In last 2 games
V Dubs
Dublin bench scored 0
Meath bench scored 4
V Monaghan
Monaghan bench scored 1
Meath bench scored 8
Last two games
Dublin and Monaghan scored 1 from their benchs v us
Meath scored 12 points from the bench v them
Forwards like Jordan Morris Joey Wallace James Conlon and Donal lenihan are offering a threat we have never had before on the bench.
It feels that we are now scoring 0-19 and 1-17 v top tops our forward play and free taking is improvinh. If we can score 20 points or plus v top teams I think thats when we will start winning v top team. I think we are improving upfront. Jordan Morris Shane Walsh Thomas Reilly are the present and future best trio upfront all still young forwards Morris is 20, Walsh 19 and O Reilly 23. With J Conlon Wallace and Lenihan as back up and also real options to start. While young Lynch from Trim who is on panel is also a prospect. As well as luke Mitchell, Jack Flynn and minor captain Eoghan Frayne and few others like Curtis who also on the panel. If we 2 or 3 of these young talents were to really step up as top class forwards we would really be going places. You can never say with young players you just know. But we definately are more dangerous uofront in last two games then we have anytime under McEntee and remeber we missed 3 goals chances v Dubs and 3 more v Monaghan.
With more experience this area of goal taking will improve. Shane Walsh is a proper modern full forward, a real prospect, Thomas O Reilly is developing into all round forward who can take frees and lead the line and score from play and Jordan Morris is just out and out classy finisher something we havent had probaly since Stephem Bray retired. James Conlon is also exciting talent a real poacher / finisher also who could form a good trio upfront with Walsh O Reilly or Morris. I think there are signs an area of concerm the forwards is improving very strongly." Great post and interesting stats! What I've was d into that is that we have real strength in depth in the backs and the forwards.
Looking back over posts - it does seem apparent though that where we are lacking in strength in dept is two key positions - goal keeper and mid field
In goals. right now I think Colgan is the best we have. I thought he did well against Monaghan and I think more than any other position that games under the belt is vital. I hope they are working with Yorke, Beakey and McDermott in the background
Midfield is the area I have most concern about. Menton has developed into a strong midfielder and I think Jones could be the real deal. Time will tell. But an injury to either and where do we go? I thought you Flynn was outstanding for the 20s in midfield this year. Is Ethan Devine more of a midfielder than a half forward? What about O'Reilly from Kells? I still think midfield is our most challenged line
But - I do think the team has come on and while I think it will be a tough game at the weekend I expect us to win by 5/6 in the end
ASaminthehand (Meath) - Posts: 422 - 03/11/2020 10:44:13
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Replying To ASaminthehand: "Great post and interesting stats! What I've was d into that is that we have real strength in depth in the backs and the forwards.
Looking back over posts - it does seem apparent though that where we are lacking in strength in dept is two key positions - goal keeper and mid field
In goals. right now I think Colgan is the best we have. I thought he did well against Monaghan and I think more than any other position that games under the belt is vital. I hope they are working with Yorke, Beakey and McDermott in the background
Midfield is the area I have most concern about. Menton has developed into a strong midfielder and I think Jones could be the real deal. Time will tell. But an injury to either and where do we go? I thought you Flynn was outstanding for the 20s in midfield this year. Is Ethan Devine more of a midfielder than a half forward? What about O'Reilly from Kells? I still think midfield is our most challenged line
But - I do think the team has come on and while I think it will be a tough game at the weekend I expect us to win by 5/6 in the end" watching the championship Semifinals & Final what Farrell did with Ratoath this year was take the 2 Meath u20 Midfielders and played them as 10 &12 Dathi McGowan & Flynn (both in the Squad) , this essentially gave Ratoath 4 Midfielders across the middle giving their keeper plenty of options and putting pressure on opposition kickouts, 10 & 12 are so important we need to get this right for Meath , Devine has got a number of starts and brought on a number of occasions but not winning enough ball or working hard enough (aganst Dublin) when we dont have possession .
ABD09 (Meath) - Posts: 68 - 03/11/2020 12:23:28
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Replying To royaldunne: "Don't buy the best 15 anymore. It's the best 20. Also often see a new guy suddenly get a chance. Think there was only a handful that started every league game. The 15 that finish are as important or probably more so than the 15 that start in the modern game." Ah we can agree on something, it's all about the panel and the arrival of the cavalry in the second half. Some have said that Dublin's training matches are the biggest opposition that the team meets until the very end so maybe the figure 20 should be replaced by 30+ in order to have competitive training matches. Or maybe to level the pitch so to speak introduce a rule limiting inter county panels to say 24 and have the powers that be monitor the composition of such panels with new introductions only being accommodated by corresponding departures.
MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 1080 - 03/11/2020 12:26:22
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Replying To ABD09: "watching the championship Semifinals & Final what Farrell did with Ratoath this year was take the 2 Meath u20 Midfielders and played them as 10 &12 Dathi McGowan & Flynn (both in the Squad) , this essentially gave Ratoath 4 Midfielders across the middle giving their keeper plenty of options and putting pressure on opposition kickouts, 10 & 12 are so important we need to get this right for Meath , Devine has got a number of starts and brought on a number of occasions but not winning enough ball or working hard enough (aganst Dublin) when we dont have possession ." Yes that is the way they played. Certainly against Summerhill in the semi. They used those two lads as an outlet and they won plenty of ball through them. Devine certainly didn't look sharp against Dublin and Ronan Ryan was better in that role against Monaghan. I think Ryan is a better half back though. Given our kickout issues having two more options around the middle would be a good thing!
Royalblufill (Meath) - Posts: 511 - 03/11/2020 13:55:49
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An interesting aside to the game on Sunday is that the Wicklow manager Davy Burke was involved with Summerhill during our club championship.
Not sure of the extent of his involvement but he was in with their panel for the Ratoath game.
jackhackett (Meath) - Posts: 773 - 03/11/2020 13:59:34
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Replying To Royalblufill: "Yes that is the way they played. Certainly against Summerhill in the semi. They used those two lads as an outlet and they won plenty of ball through them. Devine certainly didn't look sharp against Dublin and Ronan Ryan was better in that role against Monaghan. I think Ryan is a better half back though. Given our kickout issues having two more options around the middle would be a good thing!" Ryan definitely better in the half back line
We could do with more help with our kickouts. What I mean is more players who can win a ball out in the middle. That's why I like young Flynn.
ASaminthehand (Meath) - Posts: 422 - 03/11/2020 14:37:14
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Replying To ASaminthehand: "Ryan definitely better in the half back line
We could do with more help with our kickouts. What I mean is more players who can win a ball out in the middle. That's why I like young Flynn." literally a "tall" order for Young Flynn to make his Senior County Debut for this one., but I do agree with the logic ..I think safer bets are devine costelloe . by the way on Flynn for what its worth, this guy has what it takes. his honesty in County final when for large periods it looked like Ratoath in trouble and for his man of the match performance for the u20s against Dublin last year , when he seemed to step up alone to the task , shows he has the right character
Thelongwoodslasher (Meath) - Posts: 401 - 03/11/2020 14:59:16
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Replying To Royalblufill: "Yes that is the way they played. Certainly against Summerhill in the semi. They used those two lads as an outlet and they won plenty of ball through them. Devine certainly didn't look sharp against Dublin and Ronan Ryan was better in that role against Monaghan. I think Ryan is a better half back though. Given our kickout issues having two more options around the middle would be a good thing!" Ronan Ryan lined out at wing forward on the line up. But he played centre back v Monaghan. With Shane McEntee as a sweeper. Shane Walsh and Thomas Reilly at times came at to the 40. We played with 7 defenders v Monaghan. Ronan Ryan didnt play on the 40 v Monaghan. He was centre back. Thats what it looked like. We played with Sullivan on the 40 and when he was injured Morris went inside.
Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
S McEntee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones Menton
Sullivan McMahon Scully
Walsh O Reilly
When Sullivan injured Morris went inside. Thats what it looked like. Positions in the modern game interchange but it looked like Ryan was centre back and McEntee sweeper.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 03/11/2020 15:29:56
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Replying To royaldunne: "Don't buy the best 15 anymore. It's the best 20. Also often see a new guy suddenly get a chance. Think there was only a handful that started every league game. The 15 that finish are as important or probably more so than the 15 that start in the modern game." Maybe, but its still important to start with the right attitude and right team so your not on the back foot straight away, And dont end up chasing your tail the whole game. The last two games we had poor starts and ultimately cost us, as we lost the Dublin game and scraped a draw against Mongahan.
bobkarlgees (Meath) - Posts: 1265 - 03/11/2020 15:53:20
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Replying To Furlong1949: "Ronan Ryan lined out at wing forward on the line up. But he played centre back v Monaghan. With Shane McEntee as a sweeper. Shane Walsh and Thomas Reilly at times came at to the 40. We played with 7 defenders v Monaghan. Ronan Ryan didnt play on the 40 v Monaghan. He was centre back. Thats what it looked like. We played with Sullivan on the 40 and when he was injured Morris went inside.
Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
S McEntee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones Menton
Sullivan McMahon Scully
Walsh O Reilly
When Sullivan injured Morris went inside. Thats what it looked like. Positions in the modern game interchange but it looked like Ryan was centre back and McEntee sweeper." Ryan lined out on the 40 - He didn't stay there thats for sure and you are right we did pretty much have 7 defenders. My point I suppose is this, I'd rather see Flynn start at 10 or 12 as he can do a combination of the grunt work and he can score. I don't think we will need 7 defenders against Wicklow (no disrespect) but I think we should be trying to take the game to them. I think Andy is looking for a 10 and a 12 who can win ball and who can get up and down the pitch for about 40/45 minutes and then replace them with like typed players. I think he thought Devine was his man for this but maybe after the Dublin game he has changed his mind.
Royalblufill (Meath) - Posts: 511 - 03/11/2020 16:47:40
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Replying To Furlong1949: "Ronan Ryan lined out at wing forward on the line up. But he played centre back v Monaghan. With Shane McEntee as a sweeper. Shane Walsh and Thomas Reilly at times came at to the 40. We played with 7 defenders v Monaghan. Ronan Ryan didnt play on the 40 v Monaghan. He was centre back. Thats what it looked like. We played with Sullivan on the 40 and when he was injured Morris went inside.
Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
S McEntee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones Menton
Sullivan McMahon Scully
Walsh O Reilly
When Sullivan injured Morris went inside. Thats what it looked like. Positions in the modern game interchange but it looked like Ryan was centre back and McEntee sweeper." Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
S McEntee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones,Menton
Sullivan McMahon Scully
Walsh O Reilly
Decent side
would change
Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
s Mcentee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones,Menton
Sullivan McMahon James Mcentee
Walsh O Reilly
Bear10 (Meath) - Posts: 463 - 03/11/2020 17:06:26
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Replying To Royalblufill: "Ryan lined out on the 40 - He didn't stay there thats for sure and you are right we did pretty much have 7 defenders. My point I suppose is this, I'd rather see Flynn start at 10 or 12 as he can do a combination of the grunt work and he can score. I don't think we will need 7 defenders against Wicklow (no disrespect) but I think we should be trying to take the game to them. I think Andy is looking for a 10 and a 12 who can win ball and who can get up and down the pitch for about 40/45 minutes and then replace them with like typed players. I think he thought Devine was his man for this but maybe after the Dublin game he has changed his mind." I am a big fan of Jack Flynn. But he is not even on the match panel yet. Andy likes to throw curveball, no one predicted Hickey Harkin and Scully to start v Dublin. But its unlikely hes going to throw Flynn in v Wicklow. Flynn is a player for the future. For next 2 to 3 years. But at the moment I would have Sullivan McMahon J McEntee Morris Walsh O Reilly Conlon Wallace Devine and Lenihan ahead. If we need presence on 40 Devine will start there. Our problem is scoring forwards. We average 13 of 14 points v top teams last year and this year but in last two games we scored 0-19 and 1-17. I think Flynn is not a massive scorer from play yet. For me Morris Walsh and Reilly are the best upfront. And you do need workers in the forwards. And Harnan is back training. I would have Harnan on the 40 ahead of Flynn. A fully fit Padraig Harnan is a first team starter he can come back and sweep or act as third midfielder. Young Flynn has a great future. And I think he could be a target man. Try him as a Cathal McShane type full forward in the future. He is definately a player for the future. But for me its 2021 2022 2023. Morris has really stood up and so has Hickey. And Harkin is in with a shout of starting. Going forward Flynns clubmates Daithi McGowan is another player in the coming years with huge potential on the 40. At the moment I would Daithi McGowan higher then Flynn hes more likely to score from play, McGowan has a great left foot. But in 2 or 3 years time you could have real competition to play in Meath half forward line between Matthew Costello Dara Campion Ethan Devine Jack Flynn Jack O Connor Daithi McGowan Ruari kinsella Jason Scully. Great prospects all the above in the future on the 40.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 03/11/2020 18:25:35
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Replying To Bear10: "Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
S McEntee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones,Menton
Sullivan McMahon Scully
Walsh O Reilly
Decent side
would change
Colgan
Lavin McGill Toner
s Mcentee
Hickey Ryan Keoghan
Jones,Menton
Sullivan McMahon James Mcentee
Walsh O Reilly" The side I wrote above was the side that played v Monaghan
The side I would pick v Wicklow is
1 Colgan
2 Lavin
3 McGill
4 Hickey
5 J McEntee
6 Ryan
7 Keoghan
8 Jones
9 Menton
10 Sullivan
11 McMahon
12 Harnan ( If not fit start Devine or maybe Campion)
13 Morris
14 Walsh
15 O Reilly
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 03/11/2020 18:29:13
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Any word on harnan and j mcentee? Are they fit. And what about O'Sullivan, has he trained much since concussion?? My usual sources have dried up in all this Covid thing.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 04/11/2020 15:57:44
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Is Alan Forde finished?
bert09 (Meath) - Posts: 1807 - 04/11/2020 20:23:42
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Replying To bert09: "Is Alan Forde finished?" Ah here..
Ed2010 (Meath) - Posts: 109 - 05/11/2020 08:16:55
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