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Replying To Awwwwnow: "What really does it matter? We won 4 under 21 titles and have these players progressed? No they haven't.
Seance Johnston was our top scorer last year and he hasn't played u21 for 12 years.
The u21s coming through are not progressing at the rate they should be considering the success we had at that level.
We don't have the expertise within the county to bring players to the next level.
4 under 21 titles, a minor title and a colleges title and not 1 decent forward to show for it." 2011 - a kick of a ball away from div 4 and getting beat out the gate at home to longford
2017 - competing in div 1 and beating mayo in their back yard
Yep, you're spot on there , no progression at all genius
averagejoe (Cavan) - Posts: 60 - 06/04/2017 12:25:22
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Replying To sceptical: "I agree. It is bizarre that people who i assume are grown men savage an underage team after admitting that they didnt even attend the game. I sat near a fan last night who rediculed the efforts of our team for the entire hour. There is something very wrong in our counties football. It is not however to be found in the current u21 setup. It is in the disgraceful attitude of many on here. Lads, the team last night were beaten by an extraordinary Donegal squad. However, Conor Bradley, Caoimhin Reilly, Donal Monaghan, Luke Fortune, David Brady, and some might say others too, are well capable of making an impact at senior level. However, even if they dont, that doesnt lessen their effort or commitment." If that refers to me then let me tell you that I attended 5 of our league games and also went to the rained-off U.21 match.
I work shifts and often get swaps but it wasn't possible yesterday, Nature of the job. Won't make them all so your own shot was as cheap as mine.
Maybe I was a wee bit harsh on reflection but I find it hard to imagine that a squad who have been kept apart from the senior set-up could lose a game by 14 points. It reflects poor preparation to me and a poor game plan by the mentors.
As for Donegal being a brilliant team, well maybe they are and I wish them the best of luck and hope they go on and win the AI. However they struggled to beat Tyrone needing extra time and a replay to do so. For that reason the jury is still out.
Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 06/04/2017 12:28:39
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Replying To MuckrossHead: "The advantage the young Tyrone & Donegal players have is that they are coming into a well eatablished senior setup that has success in it's recent history.
For me the man who has laid the groundwork for this U21 team is Jim McGuinness, for Tyrone it is Mickey Harte. These managers put a stamp on their counties that has permeated every level & Cavan's task is to appoint a figure who can do the same thing." That's our biggest problem.. the link between senior and u21.
Donegal beat us in 2010 with Mc Hugh Murphy and and 18 yr old Mc brearty.
These lads have excelled at senior level since along with other lads like the other 2 mchughs.
We had decent Senior players but with our underage success we discarded them and went with no experience.
Hyland was doing an exceptional good job at u21 level churning out good honest lads with great commitment and discipline and determination.
What we didn't have was an experienced Denior Coach like Pete McGrath to take these lads to the next level.
Hyland tried at senior level but found it difficult to make the step up into senior management without the necessary expertise and help.
We needed someone like McGrath for 3 years with Hyland as his assistant. Then Terry would have been experience to take the Senior job.
But as usual we put the cart before the horse..
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 06/04/2017 12:32:29
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Replying To averagejoe: "2011 - a kick of a ball away from div 4 and getting beat out the gate at home to longford
2017 - competing in div 1 and beating mayo in their back yard
Yep, you're spot on there , no progression at all genius" 4 Ulster 21 titles and 1 minor title and the best we can do is beat Mayo!? Your happy with that? Because London nearly beat them a few years ago.. and New York almost bet Roscommon in last years championship..
that shows you how we have progressed
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 06/04/2017 12:36:45
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Wow tough night for Cavan and wow that's a serious Donegal team - Donegal football is in a healthy state from what i seen last night.
I think people are getting a bit carried away here ... we had 4 u21 wins in a row with a good few of the same players playing over multiple years and the ulster minor 2011 winners coming through to back them up so we had a bit of a golden patch - last time we played Donegal u21's we had them bet only for mcHugh to score a last minute goal to beat us so we were not far of them and beat them in finals over our run prior to that.
What happened last night is hopefully a blip, we came up against a serious outfit, perhaps Donegal's golden age and we were fore-warned as they were close to an all ireland in minor and even our seniors struggled over them in the mckenna cup. Also they hit unbelievable scores, they couldn't miss so that might not happen again and because they were hitting such serious scores it had to deflate on our lads. Of course they were better all over the field stronger, faster but the gap is inflated because of a few things, they had a serious game, they have senior inter county experience (both mckenna cup and Div 1 League) seemingly 16-14 of them are involved in the senior panel which is massive and they have big game experience even from minor level (in all ireland finals) - our lads haven't any big game experience and counts for a lot.
Anyway good luck to Donegal - they should win Ulster but will get a test from Derry as they beat Monaghan who were defending champions and had a tough game against Armagh last night which will stand to them.
sidelineview (Cavan) - Posts: 109 - 06/04/2017 13:06:20
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Replying To Cavan_Slasher: "If that refers to me then let me tell you that I attended 5 of our league games and also went to the rained-off U.21 match.
I work shifts and often get swaps but it wasn't possible yesterday, Nature of the job. Won't make them all so your own shot was as cheap as mine.
Maybe I was a wee bit harsh on reflection but I find it hard to imagine that a squad who have been kept apart from the senior set-up could lose a game by 14 points. It reflects poor preparation to me and a poor game plan by the mentors.
As for Donegal being a brilliant team, well maybe they are and I wish them the best of luck and hope they go on and win the AI. However they struggled to beat Tyrone needing extra time and a replay to do so. For that reason the jury is still out." Donegal Tyrone was the most one sided draw ever. Donegal missed loads.
doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 06/04/2017 13:25:34
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Not exactly true that Cavan had no big game experience. 6 or 7 that stated or came on, were part of the Mac Rory cup winning team.
Donegal were picking from 3 strong Minor teams. Ulster Champions 2014, they won the Ulster Minor League in 2015 and favourites for Ulster, missed a last minute penalty against Derry in the semis. They won Ulster Minor Championship 2016 as well.
FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2824 - 06/04/2017 13:35:58
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Replying To Breffni39: "I see the usual suspects seem to have enjoyed that result last night.
Bizarre attitude to following your county.
Saying young fellas, amateurs, should "hang their heads in shame" is not on. They were beaten by a better team. It happens, that's how SPORT works." I see you still haven't relinquished your role as the forum policeman.
By the way, do you ever go to matches? You seem to have a lot to say about other people's opinion, whilst never offering your own.
Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 06/04/2017 13:36:43
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Replying to FrDougalMaguire (Cavan)-
"Also my gripe with this age group is that for the past number of years it has been basically a closed shop. It is based on minor teams of the past few years.
There are no open trials to pick up lads who have developed mentally, physically and tactically over the years. It's a closed shop !
A few weekends of trials would cast the net wider and possibly pick up talent."
I totally agree with this comment and I have seen this "closed shop" or "development squad" mentality for some years now.
Last evening we had a few players who started or came on as a sub in the game that played little or no part in any preparation training or games for this competition which would make no sense.
This is a reflection on the management and not the players involved.
experiencedblu (Cavan) - Posts: 19 - 06/04/2017 13:39:51
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Replying To Ned_Stormcrow: "I see you still haven't relinquished your role as the forum policeman.
By the way, do you ever go to matches? You seem to have a lot to say about other people's opinion, whilst never offering your own." Good man Ned, you must be due another name-change soon?
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12200 - 06/04/2017 14:02:28
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Replying To doratheexplorer: "Donegal Tyrone was the most one sided draw ever. Donegal missed loads." The fact is that it could have gone either way in the first game. Something that couldn't be said about last night's game.
Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 06/04/2017 14:34:35
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Replying To Cavan_Slasher: "The fact is that it could have gone either way in the first game. Something that couldn't be said about last night's game." There's no blame on players here. It's the structure of the transition from u21 to Senior is not what it should be.
We are still fiddling around trying to get a permanent full back, centre back centre forward and full forward after all the underage success we have had.
That can't be right.
Too much chopping and changing in key positions this past 4/5 years.
Look at the good teams their spine don't change.
If you don't have a settled spine up the middle your going nowhere.
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 06/04/2017 15:03:35
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Replying To Awwwwnow: "There's no blame on players here. It's the structure of the transition from u21 to Senior is not what it should be.
We are still fiddling around trying to get a permanent full back, centre back centre forward and full forward after all the underage success we have had.
That can't be right.
Too much chopping and changing in key positions this past 4/5 years.
Look at the good teams their spine don't change.
If you don't have a settled spine up the middle your going nowhere." The biggest fault is keeping them seperate. 16 of Donegal's team on their senior panel. U21 challenge tournaments such as Hasting is no preperation like Senior football.
doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 06/04/2017 16:12:42
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Tough game for our young lads last night. Saw Donegal v Tyrone and feared this would happen. They are a serious team with no weak links. We have some decent players but we are weak in a few positions. Donegal were in the groove as well which compounded the issue.
People need to relax. Comparisons with other years is crazy too. We are a smaller county than most in Ulster and cannot expect to be among the top dogs every year. Again, Donegal are an exceptional team, we would not even be among top 4 in Ulstet this year. Some of those lads will progress to Senior, of that I'm sure. When we were winning titles people were saying they were sick of Ulster and would rather we concentrate on flair and individuals instead of hard work. People are quick to call the tune but don't want to pay the piper.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 06/04/2017 16:18:19
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Replying To doratheexplorer: "The biggest fault is keeping them seperate. 16 of Donegal's team on their senior panel. U21 challenge tournaments such as Hasting is no preperation like Senior football." It's very difficult now to draft u21s into this years senior setup at such a late stage.
Ok we might find an impact sub or 2 that's the best we can hope for.
Maybe we should take donegals lead next year where u21s were allowed play with the seniors if good enough.
They need experience at a higher level which would stand to them for the u21 competition.
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 06/04/2017 16:46:26
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To say barely any of those lads will make the senior grade is beyond ridiculous. They are 19 20 21 years of age for God sake. Yes, they didn't perform to their potential last night but even if they did I don't believe they would have toppled Donegal, they were excellent. They still have time to develop and no doubt a handful of them will at least get an opportunity.
Brady in the goals, in my mind will be a future Cavan goalkeeper. He struggled yesterday from the kickout but to be fair he didn't have much movement from the defence and midfield was a battle we were going to lose all day. Luke Fortune was the only bright spark in the back yesterday. Showed tenacity in the tackle and showed he had pride in the jersey he was wearing. O Reilly from Crosserlough is only out of minor and I believe he has showed before that he has potential to push for a senior place. He has a long way to go but with coaching and time he could make it. Galligan is an outstanding fielder of the ball when he is let. He needs to now develop into a player who can cope with a player at midfield who can compete with him. An abundance of talent there and has potential. Maybe lacking in the fitness department but that is something he can work on. Daly could make the grade too if he works hard at it. Don't need to say too much about Bradley we all know what he can do. Maybe a bit light but again I'm sure the lad knows himself what he has to do to make the step up to senior. Caoimhin O Reilly was disappointing last night but the young lad has potential as does Connolly in the other corner.
The key point in all of the above is potential. We shouldn't be criticising the young lads! They need to be told where they are falling short and what they've got to do to push onto senior. There is no point lambasting them on forums such as this that certainly won't do us any good, nor will telling them all that they are God's gift. They need to be constructively criticised and not told to 'hang their heads in shame'!
patman92 (Cavan) - Posts: 71 - 06/04/2017 17:29:50
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Replying To Awwwwnow: "It's very difficult now to draft u21s into this years senior setup at such a late stage.
Ok we might find an impact sub or 2 that's the best we can hope for.
Maybe we should take donegals lead next year where u21s were allowed play with the seniors if good enough.
They need experience at a higher level which would stand to them for the u21 competition." Its u 20 next year . Shocking game plan last night . Agree Donegal were very good .
Breffinifan (Cavan) - Posts: 91 - 06/04/2017 17:57:18
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Replying To Cavan_Slasher: "The fact is that it could have gone either way in the first game. Something that couldn't be said about last night's game." The game could well have went either way in the end up but I think Donegal had something like 16 wides on the night while last night they only had 3. Also in the first game v Tyrone Donegal were without several first team players because of injury and all of them were available last night apart from Ciaran Gillespie (Who played senior championship last year). I think you're being a bit harsh on Cavan as they obviously had a bit of an off night while Donegal could do no wrong. Hopefully can maintain that level of performance for Monday.
Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 06/04/2017 18:01:21
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Replying To Mobot: "The game could well have went either way in the end up but I think Donegal had something like 16 wides on the night while last night they only had 3. Also in the first game v Tyrone Donegal were without several first team players because of injury and all of them were available last night apart from Ciaran Gillespie (Who played senior championship last year). I think you're being a bit harsh on Cavan as they obviously had a bit of an off night while Donegal could do no wrong. Hopefully can maintain that level of performance for Monday." Maybe i was a bit harsh but having the panel away on their own training and not allowing them be part of the senior panel, well what's that about?
We are also well used to Cavan teams "not performing on the night" too.
Donegal kicked a lot of wides against Tyrone and on another night might have lost and there wouldn't be any more word about them. The fact is though that despite all the wides they got a draw and won the replay. Then they corrected the problems of wayward shooting and kicked on. We fail to correct problems, always.
Good luck in the rest of the C/ship and I hope you go all the way.
Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 06/04/2017 18:39:17
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Replying To patman92: "To say barely any of those lads will make the senior grade is beyond ridiculous. They are 19 20 21 years of age for God sake. Yes, they didn't perform to their potential last night but even if they did I don't believe they would have toppled Donegal, they were excellent. They still have time to develop and no doubt a handful of them will at least get an opportunity.
Brady in the goals, in my mind will be a future Cavan goalkeeper. He struggled yesterday from the kickout but to be fair he didn't have much movement from the defence and midfield was a battle we were going to lose all day. Luke Fortune was the only bright spark in the back yesterday. Showed tenacity in the tackle and showed he had pride in the jersey he was wearing. O Reilly from Crosserlough is only out of minor and I believe he has showed before that he has potential to push for a senior place. He has a long way to go but with coaching and time he could make it. Galligan is an outstanding fielder of the ball when he is let. He needs to now develop into a player who can cope with a player at midfield who can compete with him. An abundance of talent there and has potential. Maybe lacking in the fitness department but that is something he can work on. Daly could make the grade too if he works hard at it. Don't need to say too much about Bradley we all know what he can do. Maybe a bit light but again I'm sure the lad knows himself what he has to do to make the step up to senior. Caoimhin O Reilly was disappointing last night but the young lad has potential as does Connolly in the other corner.
The key point in all of the above is potential. We shouldn't be criticising the young lads! They need to be told where they are falling short and what they've got to do to push onto senior. There is no point lambasting them on forums such as this that certainly won't do us any good, nor will telling them all that they are God's gift. They need to be constructively criticised and not told to 'hang their heads in shame'!" Well said Patman.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 06/04/2017 18:39:19
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