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Replying To browncows:  "It is interesting reading all the posts from 'experts'!! It appears that the goal keeper is the most important player by some. Can the keeper win his own kick out. The keeper is the obvious one to blame if a goal is conceded - we have not yet got around to blame the keeper for missed opportunities at the other end of the pitch. Short kick outs and long kick outs work when you have outfield players good enough to win possession it is a combination of the kick and the ability to win the outfield possession. For short kick outs you need defenders moving around -not static as occurs frequently. The game is now been analysed to death although it is interesting to note that the games have become easier on the eye to watch of late. We have borrowed many of the negative aspects from soccer unfortunately. Modern game and stats is now the buzz word with many."
Fair point there brown cows. I wouldn't overly look at stats myself. If something doesn't pass the eye test then stats won't change my opinion on it. As you say a keeper can't field the ball for the player on the other end or stick it over the bar but a keeper does need to be intelligent enough to give his players a better than average chance of winning the ball and doing something with it.

For too long i've watched our backs especially corner and wing backs and midfield and wing forwards being static and not giving the keeper a chance or option. So the keeper is then in a hurry and rush to get the ball out and when that happens mistakes happen. I saw it repeatedly last summer where Colgan and Brennan danced across the 21 looking for an option and nothing was presented, them throwing their hands up in the air in frustration and they had to kick it under pressure. That is a fault of management that no system or patterns are in place to get the ball away. It's clear as day its not been worked on. For a division 1 team that's criminal.

Every team has maybe 20-30 kick outs a game and to not have any system in place is a glaring weakness and reflects terribly on the management. This is your only time in the game where you should have an advantage in terms of knowing what you're going to do but we don't seem to have an idea at all. I've seen a few lads mention Colm Nally and his approach, if he's so great why hasn't that aspect of our game improved since he's been involved. I'd say its even been worse in the last two years.

Every team we've played in our last 10 games knows the problem in advance and pushes up onto our defenders and clogs up the space. When that happens you need your half forwards to give you an out and they're not doing so. How often did we see Cluxton find Paul Flynn and laterly Howard and Scully in wide open space. They are then straight into opposing defences. Devine is a huge man and should be a primary target but doesn't seem able to win any balls.

When someone does make a break more often than not they're too close to the sideline when making the break which increases the pressure on a keeper the place an accurate kick into their hands. There needs to be a better way of organising when and where players make breaks to and where they're ultimately getting a ball. This isn't happening and teams have us scouted enough to know it.

The fact that neither Brennan specifically (he barely gets it passed the 45) and Colgan can't find our half forwards means teams don't have to worry about us. Result is teams will take more pot shots knowing they've a better than average chance of getting the ball back and restarting an attack.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 909 - 22/10/2020 13:56:33    2300218

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Replying To brian:  "Fair point there brown cows. I wouldn't overly look at stats myself. If something doesn't pass the eye test then stats won't change my opinion on it. As you say a keeper can't field the ball for the player on the other end or stick it over the bar but a keeper does need to be intelligent enough to give his players a better than average chance of winning the ball and doing something with it.

For too long i've watched our backs especially corner and wing backs and midfield and wing forwards being static and not giving the keeper a chance or option. So the keeper is then in a hurry and rush to get the ball out and when that happens mistakes happen. I saw it repeatedly last summer where Colgan and Brennan danced across the 21 looking for an option and nothing was presented, them throwing their hands up in the air in frustration and they had to kick it under pressure. That is a fault of management that no system or patterns are in place to get the ball away. It's clear as day its not been worked on. For a division 1 team that's criminal.

Every team has maybe 20-30 kick outs a game and to not have any system in place is a glaring weakness and reflects terribly on the management. This is your only time in the game where you should have an advantage in terms of knowing what you're going to do but we don't seem to have an idea at all. I've seen a few lads mention Colm Nally and his approach, if he's so great why hasn't that aspect of our game improved since he's been involved. I'd say its even been worse in the last two years.

Every team we've played in our last 10 games knows the problem in advance and pushes up onto our defenders and clogs up the space. When that happens you need your half forwards to give you an out and they're not doing so. How often did we see Cluxton find Paul Flynn and laterly Howard and Scully in wide open space. They are then straight into opposing defences. Devine is a huge man and should be a primary target but doesn't seem able to win any balls.

When someone does make a break more often than not they're too close to the sideline when making the break which increases the pressure on a keeper the place an accurate kick into their hands. There needs to be a better way of organising when and where players make breaks to and where they're ultimately getting a ball. This isn't happening and teams have us scouted enough to know it.

The fact that neither Brennan specifically (he barely gets it passed the 45) and Colgan can't find our half forwards means teams don't have to worry about us. Result is teams will take more pot shots knowing they've a better than average chance of getting the ball back and restarting an attack."
*The fact that neither Brennan specifically (he barely gets it passed the 45)

Sorry Brian but thats just not true. Marky Brennan has been the best goalkeeper on the club scene the last 15 years in my opinion. he is well able to clear the half way line (have look at 08 keegan final on youtube). the last decade o'mahonys go short a lot with their kickouts and he has been peerless in that regard (look at 2015 final, how often he found o'coillean a h/f coming short)
I think maybe because he isn't a big man, people assume he must have short kick.
movement from our players is definitely the issue with kickouts.

Meathmaverick (Meath) - Posts: 95 - 22/10/2020 14:21:52    2300234

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Replying To Meathmaverick:  "*The fact that neither Brennan specifically (he barely gets it passed the 45)

Sorry Brian but thats just not true. Marky Brennan has been the best goalkeeper on the club scene the last 15 years in my opinion. he is well able to clear the half way line (have look at 08 keegan final on youtube). the last decade o'mahonys go short a lot with their kickouts and he has been peerless in that regard (look at 2015 final, how often he found o'coillean a h/f coming short)
I think maybe because he isn't a big man, people assume he must have short kick.
movement from our players is definitely the issue with kickouts."
MM as you said that's your opinion. My opinion is he's not close to good enough to be an inter county goalkeeper and its a sad reflection of how far our goalkeeper standards have slipped in the last decade. In his time with Meath he's shown nothing to suggest he can be the distributor you're saying he has been. And lets not forget isn't he the current goal keepers coach. Surely he has input into how the team and their kick out strategy works? Surely he should be able to make on the fly calls of where the ball should go? Saying he could do something in 2008 isn't relevant today. Saying look what he did in a county final 5 years ago has no relevance to the higher level of inter county football. Is he doing it now? Very clearly not. I mean no disrespect to him, fair play to him for still going at this stage in his career, he's a better man than me.

I agree with your final line that movement from players is an issue but that should've been worked on by Andy as manager, Marcus as keepers coach and Colm Nally as team trainer. This isn't a new problem so why is it not being addressed? Every top calibre team has a strategy for kick outs, why do we not?

brian (Meath) - Posts: 909 - 22/10/2020 14:55:07    2300239

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Replying To brian:  "MM as you said that's your opinion. My opinion is he's not close to good enough to be an inter county goalkeeper and its a sad reflection of how far our goalkeeper standards have slipped in the last decade. In his time with Meath he's shown nothing to suggest he can be the distributor you're saying he has been. And lets not forget isn't he the current goal keepers coach. Surely he has input into how the team and their kick out strategy works? Surely he should be able to make on the fly calls of where the ball should go? Saying he could do something in 2008 isn't relevant today. Saying look what he did in a county final 5 years ago has no relevance to the higher level of inter county football. Is he doing it now? Very clearly not. I mean no disrespect to him, fair play to him for still going at this stage in his career, he's a better man than me.

I agree with your final line that movement from players is an issue but that should've been worked on by Andy as manager, Marcus as keepers coach and Colm Nally as team trainer. This isn't a new problem so why is it not being addressed? Every top calibre team has a strategy for kick outs, why do we not?"
Fair enough Brian, i do see some of your points.
But i was using 2008 and 2015 as examples, as in if he could hit half way and beyond in 08 he can obviously do it now (NOM v sench from 2020 is on youtube, 1st kickout of the match hit midfield against what looked like a strong breeze).
the 2015 point was more to point out he is clearly comfortable going short and has been excellent for over a decade at doing so for NOM.
i think its 11 keepers we've had in under andy now, and we've struggled consistently with kickouts, they all couldnt be incapable of short kickouts.
now as you said inter county is higher level than club, but if a player is preforming at club level he gets a chance at inter county level, thats generally how it works, Marky has been the best in meath the last 10 years at short KOs, i'd say Tony McDonnell from Summerhill has been 2nd best.
now most teams press our kickouts high and these are bound to be harder to negotiate than a press at club level. The fact we don't have a dominant midfield at fielding means teams are bound to press our ko in hope that we go long.
I agree that Andy, CN and Marky all must share some blame on our inability to have a ko strategy, however in my view when you watch meath over the last few years the movement on our kickouts is non existent.

Meathmaverick (Meath) - Posts: 95 - 22/10/2020 16:16:50    2300272

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Replying To Meathmaverick:  "Fair enough Brian, i do see some of your points.
But i was using 2008 and 2015 as examples, as in if he could hit half way and beyond in 08 he can obviously do it now (NOM v sench from 2020 is on youtube, 1st kickout of the match hit midfield against what looked like a strong breeze).
the 2015 point was more to point out he is clearly comfortable going short and has been excellent for over a decade at doing so for NOM.
i think its 11 keepers we've had in under andy now, and we've struggled consistently with kickouts, they all couldnt be incapable of short kickouts.
now as you said inter county is higher level than club, but if a player is preforming at club level he gets a chance at inter county level, thats generally how it works, Marky has been the best in meath the last 10 years at short KOs, i'd say Tony McDonnell from Summerhill has been 2nd best.
now most teams press our kickouts high and these are bound to be harder to negotiate than a press at club level. The fact we don't have a dominant midfield at fielding means teams are bound to press our ko in hope that we go long.
I agree that Andy, CN and Marky all must share some blame on our inability to have a ko strategy, however in my view when you watch meath over the last few years the movement on our kickouts is non existent."
Brennan's kickout to Toher in the first half down his right hand side was perfect- obviously one that had been worked on and planned and that the dubs didn't anticipate
Tohers movement was excellent and the space created by other players movement - particularly Keoghan allowed it happen

To my mind - movement of the outfield players is hugely important- the keepers ability to pick his spot and to deliver it with speed and accuracy is another - but you have to allow for the other teams ability to defend your kickouts too

We took a few of Cluxtons kickouts - look back on the match - I bet they weren't happy about that

Andy McEntee wants to win - he is trying to pick the best team for the job - I went to a lot of games in the senior championship last year and no keeper had it all his own way! Duffy from Ratoath was the best all round keeper I saw - after him there wasn't much to chose between Colgan Brennan Berlingham and tony McDonnell
I didn't see many games at inter bar the final so can't comment on keepers at that grade - or at junior

ASaminthehand (Meath) - Posts: 292 - 22/10/2020 22:26:30    2300386

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Replying To ASaminthehand:  "Brennan's kickout to Toher in the first half down his right hand side was perfect- obviously one that had been worked on and planned and that the dubs didn't anticipate
Tohers movement was excellent and the space created by other players movement - particularly Keoghan allowed it happen

To my mind - movement of the outfield players is hugely important- the keepers ability to pick his spot and to deliver it with speed and accuracy is another - but you have to allow for the other teams ability to defend your kickouts too

We took a few of Cluxtons kickouts - look back on the match - I bet they weren't happy about that

Andy McEntee wants to win - he is trying to pick the best team for the job - I went to a lot of games in the senior championship last year and no keeper had it all his own way! Duffy from Ratoath was the best all round keeper I saw - after him there wasn't much to chose between Colgan Brennan Berlingham and tony McDonnell
I didn't see many games at inter bar the final so can't comment on keepers at that grade - or at junior"
Pluck from Ballinabrackey looks like a competent young keeper with a decent kickout. At junior level, the Slane keeper is very good with excellent kickouts. Also Scully from Brigids a very capable young keeper. From what I have seen, these are all decent alternatives but need to be given a chance. Bit late for this year maybe.

winatallcost (Meath) - Posts: 239 - 23/10/2020 09:49:43    2300423

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Replying To Meathmaverick:  "Fair enough Brian, i do see some of your points.
But i was using 2008 and 2015 as examples, as in if he could hit half way and beyond in 08 he can obviously do it now (NOM v sench from 2020 is on youtube, 1st kickout of the match hit midfield against what looked like a strong breeze).
the 2015 point was more to point out he is clearly comfortable going short and has been excellent for over a decade at doing so for NOM.
i think its 11 keepers we've had in under andy now, and we've struggled consistently with kickouts, they all couldnt be incapable of short kickouts.
now as you said inter county is higher level than club, but if a player is preforming at club level he gets a chance at inter county level, thats generally how it works, Marky has been the best in meath the last 10 years at short KOs, i'd say Tony McDonnell from Summerhill has been 2nd best.
now most teams press our kickouts high and these are bound to be harder to negotiate than a press at club level. The fact we don't have a dominant midfield at fielding means teams are bound to press our ko in hope that we go long.
I agree that Andy, CN and Marky all must share some blame on our inability to have a ko strategy, however in my view when you watch meath over the last few years the movement on our kickouts is non existent."
Fair play MM, don't disagree with anything you say there ;)

I think the thing of trying 11 keepers is scandalous on the part of Andy and management. I think Marcus was actual a coach this year and was brought onto the panel when Colgan got injured. What message does that send to anyone looking in.

Yorke and Hogan barely got a chance and were disregarded. Same as Berlingham and Hannigan a couple of years ago. Surely if we want to give a keeper a chance you have to give them multiple games. They're never going to get up to inter county standard right out of the gate. Look at Cluxton he took years to develop his strategy. A few teething problem and we throw the baby out with that bath water. Yorke got one half v Tyrone and was dropped completely. If we want to develop a keeper we need to be more patient.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 909 - 23/10/2020 10:37:54    2300433

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Replying To brian:  "Fair play MM, don't disagree with anything you say there ;)

I think the thing of trying 11 keepers is scandalous on the part of Andy and management. I think Marcus was actual a coach this year and was brought onto the panel when Colgan got injured. What message does that send to anyone looking in.

Yorke and Hogan barely got a chance and were disregarded. Same as Berlingham and Hannigan a couple of years ago. Surely if we want to give a keeper a chance you have to give them multiple games. They're never going to get up to inter county standard right out of the gate. Look at Cluxton he took years to develop his strategy. A few teething problem and we throw the baby out with that bath water. Yorke got one half v Tyrone and was dropped completely. If we want to develop a keeper we need to be more patient."
Cluxton took years to develop his strategy but was still an excellent goalkeeper straight away. He played in 2001 when the Davy Byrne was injured and then they took him out for the Leinster final (to criticism) who then had a howler to help us win the Leinster. The next year in 2002 Cluxton was an all-star as a 20-year-old. So it took him a while to get his short accurate kick out style but he was still an excellent keeper. Generally, with a goalkeeper at county level, you can tell pretty quickly if a goalkeeper can hang at that level

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 837 - 23/10/2020 15:52:11    2300562

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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99:  "Cluxton took years to develop his strategy but was still an excellent goalkeeper straight away. He played in 2001 when the Davy Byrne was injured and then they took him out for the Leinster final (to criticism) who then had a howler to help us win the Leinster. The next year in 2002 Cluxton was an all-star as a 20-year-old. So it took him a while to get his short accurate kick out style but he was still an excellent keeper. Generally, with a goalkeeper at county level, you can tell pretty quickly if a goalkeeper can hang at that level"
I agree entirely Leitrim, the thing is Andy hasn't given half of these keepers a try. Berlingham, Hannigan, Yorke and Hogan got 1 or maybe 2 O'byrne Cup game from recollection. Yorke got a half a game in a league match. All of them were then discarded. Beakey and McDermott sat on the bench for some games and didn't get any game time (Beakey maybe got an O'Byrne cup game). How is that seeing whats available to us and giving them a fair chance?

Yet we've seen Colgan and Brennan repeatedly cough up the ball and scores in multiple league and championship games and they've been persisted with. What have they done thats so much better? As an observer i don't think we've seen any keeper come in and stamp their identity onto the no1 jersey. But to continue with both, who in my opinion are so poor at one of the basics of the game is giving teams a head start which we can't afford too.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 909 - 23/10/2020 16:46:23    2300574

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Replying To brian:  "I agree entirely Leitrim, the thing is Andy hasn't given half of these keepers a try. Berlingham, Hannigan, Yorke and Hogan got 1 or maybe 2 O'byrne Cup game from recollection. Yorke got a half a game in a league match. All of them were then discarded. Beakey and McDermott sat on the bench for some games and didn't get any game time (Beakey maybe got an O'Byrne cup game). How is that seeing whats available to us and giving them a fair chance?

Yet we've seen Colgan and Brennan repeatedly cough up the ball and scores in multiple league and championship games and they've been persisted with. What have they done thats so much better? As an observer i don't think we've seen any keeper come in and stamp their identity onto the no1 jersey. But to continue with both, who in my opinion are so poor at one of the basics of the game is giving teams a head start which we can't afford too."
I know the sample size is small but from that half in Tyrone Yorke looked considerable poorer than Colgan or Brennan (Dardis was even worse so that decision made no sense) Hogan in that full O'Byrne cup game definitely didn't look up to it at all. Even his good strikes on kickouts weren't good. Hannigan played a few league games in 17 and wasn't up to it either. Colgan is a better keeper than of thee guys. And from watching club action I think he is the best in the county. It's not a great place to be but Colgan is better than all the guys that have been in. Next year Beakey deserves a call up. See how Brennan and Pluck go with the 20's and then maybe call one of them up but as of now Colgan is the best of a bad bunch

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 837 - 23/10/2020 18:59:30    2300594

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What is it 12 Keeper tried is the past 4 years ? Let start with that.
Joe Sherdian
Paddy Orourke
Gallagher
Jake Hannigan
Robbie Burlinham
D Yorke
H Hogan
Barry Dardis.
Marus Brennan
Andy Colgan

What did I get there 10 of the top of my head,there is probably a few I am missing. This Is a management failure. And now we end up with a decent lad fair play to Brennan for helping out but. In fairness he not one for the future with his age. What was done to young Yoke in Tyrone earlier is was not nothing short of shocking. You cant treat lads like that. I agree its not just bad goal keepers kicking poorly its combination of bad kick outs, lack of decent kick out strategy. Coupled with the fact we have no top quality midfielders ball winners at the moment. All leads to the prefect storm at the moment. But it can be fixed, why its been let fester like this in beyond me. But people seem to lose the plot when a ball is giving away cheaply. But you must remember every keeper dose this during the game. Its part of the risk. Sure even Cluckston kick one or two over the side and we intercepted a few of his kick outs too easily enough too.

bobkarlgees (Meath) - Posts: 1192 - 23/10/2020 19:39:21    2300604

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The full jest of it lads that the donegals tyrones mayos etc.have goalies that are aceing kickouts in a high bracket of statistics.some kicking long range frees can we say the same.?. Some even kick points from open play would i be asking a young keeper to be doin that no.but having a good variety of kickouts long short a commanding presense would be something to work with.
To long this sh..e goin on.we are doin other stuff very well but this is bordering pure stupidity.surprised with nally he talks lot on this subject his book has numerous ideas on it.but yet we are still not doin nothing bout it.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 23/10/2020 20:55:03    2300624

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A lot of geniuses on here around goalkeeping and kick outs. Apart from the 1-1 in the first 5 minutes of the game that came off our bad kick outs, I thought Marcus recovered very well and I was surprised at how good his long kick outs were. Do people think every kick out in the game has to be a pre meditated move? You can do them once maybe twice in a game. Most other kick outs are seeing what the best option is in front of you. People think long kick outs have to be 50/50 long balls down the middle, when most long kick outs are hitting an area for someone to run into.

BigJoe14 (Meath) - Posts: 565 - 24/10/2020 10:27:45    2300685

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Replying To winatallcost:  "Pluck from Ballinabrackey looks like a competent young keeper with a decent kickout. At junior level, the Slane keeper is very good with excellent kickouts. Also Scully from Brigids a very capable young keeper. From what I have seen, these are all decent alternatives but need to be given a chance. Bit late for this year maybe."
Scully from brigids is very solid

westmeathgaa11 (Westmeath) - Posts: 77 - 24/10/2020 10:45:38    2300688

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "The full jest of it lads that the donegals tyrones mayos etc.have goalies that are aceing kickouts in a high bracket of statistics.some kicking long range frees can we say the same.?. Some even kick points from open play would i be asking a young keeper to be doin that no.but having a good variety of kickouts long short a commanding presense would be something to work with.
To long this sh..e goin on.we are doin other stuff very well but this is bordering pure stupidity.surprised with nally he talks lot on this subject his book has numerous ideas on it.but yet we are still not doin nothing bout it."
Wow aren't you very brave with all your big talk,curse words and other words that you were too angry to even type to a conclusion.

I'm sure they have made attempts to address it - I think it says more about you than the management if you actually believe they haven't tried to address the fact Meath don't convert enough kickouts into possessions
I don't claim Meath goalkeeping is in a good place but in the interest of balance I'll point out

1) Patton had some disastrous kickouts for Donegal today in Kerry
2) Cluxton had his share of bad ones last week yet not mentioned
3) Mayo have to-ed and fro-ed between Clarke and Hennelly for 10 years
4) Galway goalkeeper looked all at sea last weekend ,both with kickouts and general goalkeeping
5) Colgan was kicking numerous long range frees in the Meath championship this year - I'm going to assume he's not what you want based on your tone

Good on you for reading Nally's book,hopefully you can put the concepts to good use when you are coaching and please god no one lets you near a juvenile team at any point in the near future.

goosey (Meath) - Posts: 58 - 24/10/2020 20:17:00    2300935

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Replying To goosey:  "Wow aren't you very brave with all your big talk,curse words and other words that you were too angry to even type to a conclusion.

I'm sure they have made attempts to address it - I think it says more about you than the management if you actually believe they haven't tried to address the fact Meath don't convert enough kickouts into possessions
I don't claim Meath goalkeeping is in a good place but in the interest of balance I'll point out

1) Patton had some disastrous kickouts for Donegal today in Kerry
2) Cluxton had his share of bad ones last week yet not mentioned
3) Mayo have to-ed and fro-ed between Clarke and Hennelly for 10 years
4) Galway goalkeeper looked all at sea last weekend ,both with kickouts and general goalkeeping
5) Colgan was kicking numerous long range frees in the Meath championship this year - I'm going to assume he's not what you want based on your tone

Good on you for reading Nally's book,hopefully you can put the concepts to good use when you are coaching and please god no one lets you near a juvenile team at any point in the near future."
(Im sure they have made attempts to address it) this seems to tell me your close to the management.or your guessing.
You dont know me or nothing about me so explain to me what says more about me than management?.your stating one off games here im and not alone in this in stating keepers have come and gone in alarming fashion in this meath set up.ive acknowledged that they have done very good stuff.but to be getting up on your high horse and trying to put me down for my opinion on this issue really says lot bout you.your angry i suppose in calling out your buddies.but big talk curse words where the fuck did you come up with that sh..te.lol

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 25/10/2020 12:26:30    2301114

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Replying To BigJoe14:  "A lot of geniuses on here around goalkeeping and kick outs. Apart from the 1-1 in the first 5 minutes of the game that came off our bad kick outs, I thought Marcus recovered very well and I was surprised at how good his long kick outs were. Do people think every kick out in the game has to be a pre meditated move? You can do them once maybe twice in a game. Most other kick outs are seeing what the best option is in front of you. People think long kick outs have to be 50/50 long balls down the middle, when most long kick outs are hitting an area for someone to run into."
We lost by 4 points

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 26/10/2020 17:48:42    2301717

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