Meath Forum

Meath V Down TC Final.

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Replying To JonnieG:  "
Replying To seadog54:  "[quote=JonnieG:  "I think the argument here is have we improved or not after the first year and in my opinion the answer is no.
People getting excited about having an improved midfield and forward line with some new young lads....... because they played ok against Waterford and Wexford!! but remember most of them were also there in our league games where we finished near the bottom of the pile and against Offaly! Where we didn't rack up big scores.
So a bit naive to be saying that these lads are good yet!! As someone else said above - proof of the pudding will be in next years Div 2!!
I am also a bit shocked at the naivety in the management setup to thing that we can go out in the modern game and just try and score more than the opposition without worrying on our own defense!! That needs to change next year too. That should have changes this year and yet we were nearly pipped by Antrim in the second last match of the year who went on a scoring spree near the end!! Absolutely inexcusable and beyond belief!!
Getting positive about seeing us "stretch the lead back out after they got back to 1 with the momentum behind them" is not where I want the ambition level to be with my county to be honest!!
And i know people will say we are not the team we used to be but that will never diminish the expectation levels I have for my county! I want us to be competing for All Irelands again and not TCs. And if we have to "rebuild" and "bring in new players" every time we get a new manager we are going nowhere!! I will go back to Mickey Harte and Louth who nearly got promoted to Div 1 this year after being in Div 4 two years ago! Do you think they imported a bunch of super hero's out of the blue? No.... just a good manager showing that there is not that much gulf in class between Louth footballers and all other counties maybe with the exception of 3 or 4 counties like dubs, Kerry etc...
Unless you are telling me all of a sudden that there is a gulf in class between the Louth clubs and the Meath clubs??
you can be assured that Mickey Harte was terribly disappointed in their All Ireland campaign but thats the level we have to be at......being disappointed that we got beaten against th big teams!

So this year is a write-off in my opinion and I will only see improvement next year if we are fighting for promotion to Div 1 and we have a decent run in the All Ireland (if we get there) beating some good teams on the way!!"
You are taking many posts out of context, nobody is getting over exited or belive we are anywhere we need to be, posters by and large are happy to see Meath winning a few games. Everybody knows it's Div 3, 4 teams we are playing, but for some reason the fact that COR is doing what he set out to do is really annoying some posters. Seems there was more than one dissapointed man in CP at weekend. We have made many changes since league, both players and style of football, not getting stuck with one game plan and expecting players not suited to adapt. Louth came up through the divisions which gave Harte the chance to experiment and build a decent side, COR is doing similar using TC. Once again harking back to glory days with head firmly planted in the sand has us where we are. "We are Meath" means nothing today, I have no doubt management and panel will do us proud in years to come. You rightly say we should be dissapointed when we loose, however a very small minority seem to be dissapointed when we win."
What has COR "set out to do" ??? Rebuild??? Dont say it!!!
Mickey Harte used the O'Byrne Cup to experiment and started on the upward spiral after that!
If you are taking a whole campaign to experiment you are not in the right game. Most managers nowadays do a few years and move on.
And I am not harking back to glory days - I am saying that I expect Meath to be at least maintaining a high ranking in Leinster and at least compete in All Irelands!! but on this years results we have been passed out by Louth, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath at least and Playing TC!
And as to adapting to different game plans..... I have no clue what you are talking about! 8 points up against Antrim and getting destroyed in the last 10 minutes is not a game plan I have seen before?? I believe closing out a game is a plan they haven't worked on yet!!

Sorry but I am still annoyed we ended up in the TC! The word improve means to get better! so you start at where you left off and work from there. We got worse this year and it is all masked by the mere fact that people are happy and excited we are playing in croke park again (like we pretty much have done every year anyway in the past!!) in a "Final" of the "Gaelic football Grand National for disappointed also rans" :)

I do wait for next year and hope you are right but I believe we are so far behind the curve! a LOT has to be done including a change at the Management layer with some experienced coach to open their eyes and work on the obvious!"]As you say most managers do a few years and move on, there lies the heart of our problem. Different game plans was a referal to last few years when management attempted a plan that did not suit, week after week with same outcome. We were unlucky to end up in TC, Connaght shewed the draw, otherwise we could have gotten our yearly hammering but walked away with heads held high, just like Louth, that beating will stand to them in next years league. No we did not get destroyed in last ten minutes, subs had negative impact unlike other games, but the lads stood up when things got tight and kicked late points to win tight game, exactly the type of game we needed. The league was poor, but many predicted a drop to division three based on evidence of previous year. We beat ourselves in more than one game but thats part of the learning process you seem set against. Nothing wrong with people been happy to play in CP their called supporters happy to see a young team do well. Just a small step, but in the right direction. Nobody denies defence needs work, COR said when taking over that more names would be added to management, but for whatever reason he was let down, what had just played out with CB and previous manager may have led coaches to have another think about putting their rep on that mess. Things are more settled this time so I expect an addition or shake up within management group. The positive from TC is we have what looks like a decent panel with a few more to come back from injury, evidence suggests we have addressed some of our long term issues, the rest, like it or not, is a work in progress.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2195 - 27/06/2023 17:42:48    2490193

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Replying To royaldunne:  "I'd agree broadly. I think most people's opinions that I've read on here have a problem with saying we have improved this year from last. And when you look at the opposition that is clearly not comparing like with like. The truth is we don't know where we are, we are comprehensively beating division 4 teams and winning narrowly against div 3. I agree with the Westmeath comparison and was a narrow wide at end that imo cost them from playing Kerry this weekend (think they would have beat Donegal) . But that all been said credit has to be given to management and players for embracing this, god knows many supporters (myself included) did not, while I went to all the games and was happy for a win, if we got beat would it have bothered me like the loses to Offaly, louth Derry Dublin Kildare and the draw with limerick? Not in the slightest I think majority of supporter were ambivalent to it. Now last week facing old manager has created a bit of buzz and now a final. There's a little excitement. So full credit to the lads for pushing on and putting in the effort."
Well Royaldunne believe me it's not were I want us to be eother but think the TC could actually benefit us in the long run.It has given players confidence which was badly needed, giving young lads time to get up to speed with inter county footbal(yes I know come league next year there will be another jump in quailty)but its let them find there feet.It has also given them experience of playing in croke park and winning there so that can only help in the future as well.As its gone on, I too have warmed to it maybe its because we are getting a few wins so credit to the lads for sticking at it.If we could win it now, I think it would be a big boost to everyone and let us play maybe with a bit more freedom in the league next year knowing we are in the Sam no matter what happens.Winning any game gives you confidence no matter who it is against.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 294 - 27/06/2023 17:44:38    2490195

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Jesus you wouldn't think we have a final to look forward with some of the sh*te in here being talked

Meathfor@life (Meath) - Posts: 85 - 27/06/2023 17:52:09    2490199

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Replying To Irish_downunder:  "
Replying To JonnieG:  "[quote=seadog54:  "[quote=JonnieG:  "I think the argument here is have we improved or not after the first year and in my opinion the answer is no.
People getting excited about having an improved midfield and forward line with some new young lads....... because they played ok against Waterford and Wexford!! but remember most of them were also there in our league games where we finished near the bottom of the pile and against Offaly! Where we didn't rack up big scores.
So a bit naive to be saying that these lads are good yet!! As someone else said above - proof of the pudding will be in next years Div 2!!
I am also a bit shocked at the naivety in the management setup to thing that we can go out in the modern game and just try and score more than the opposition without worrying on our own defense!! That needs to change next year too. That should have changes this year and yet we were nearly pipped by Antrim in the second last match of the year who went on a scoring spree near the end!! Absolutely inexcusable and beyond belief!!
Getting positive about seeing us "stretch the lead back out after they got back to 1 with the momentum behind them" is not where I want the ambition level to be with my county to be honest!!
And i know people will say we are not the team we used to be but that will never diminish the expectation levels I have for my county! I want us to be competing for All Irelands again and not TCs. And if we have to "rebuild" and "bring in new players" every time we get a new manager we are going nowhere!! I will go back to Mickey Harte and Louth who nearly got promoted to Div 1 this year after being in Div 4 two years ago! Do you think they imported a bunch of super hero's out of the blue? No.... just a good manager showing that there is not that much gulf in class between Louth footballers and all other counties maybe with the exception of 3 or 4 counties like dubs, Kerry etc...
Unless you are telling me all of a sudden that there is a gulf in class between the Louth clubs and the Meath clubs??
you can be assured that Mickey Harte was terribly disappointed in their All Ireland campaign but thats the level we have to be at......being disappointed that we got beaten against th big teams!

So this year is a write-off in my opinion and I will only see improvement next year if we are fighting for promotion to Div 1 and we have a decent run in the All Ireland (if we get there) beating some good teams on the way!!"
You are taking many posts out of context, nobody is getting over exited or belive we are anywhere we need to be, posters by and large are happy to see Meath winning a few games. Everybody knows it's Div 3, 4 teams we are playing, but for some reason the fact that COR is doing what he set out to do is really annoying some posters. Seems there was more than one dissapointed man in CP at weekend. We have made many changes since league, both players and style of football, not getting stuck with one game plan and expecting players not suited to adapt. Louth came up through the divisions which gave Harte the chance to experiment and build a decent side, COR is doing similar using TC. Once again harking back to glory days with head firmly planted in the sand has us where we are. "We are Meath" means nothing today, I have no doubt management and panel will do us proud in years to come. You rightly say we should be dissapointed when we loose, however a very small minority seem to be dissapointed when we win."
What has COR "set out to do" ??? Rebuild??? Dont say it!!!
Mickey Harte used the O'Byrne Cup to experiment and started on the upward spiral after that!
If you are taking a whole campaign to experiment you are not in the right game. Most managers nowadays do a few years and move on.
And I am not harking back to glory days - I am saying that I expect Meath to be at least maintaining a high ranking in Leinster and at least compete in All Irelands!! but on this years results we have been passed out by Louth, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath at least and Playing TC!
And as to adapting to different game plans..... I have no clue what you are talking about! 8 points up against Antrim and getting destroyed in the last 10 minutes is not a game plan I have seen before?? I believe closing out a game is a plan they haven't worked on yet!!

Sorry but I am still annoyed we ended up in the TC! The word improve means to get better! so you start at where you left off and work from there. We got worse this year and it is all masked by the mere fact that people are happy and excited we are playing in croke park again (like we pretty much have done every year anyway in the past!!) in a "Final" of the "Gaelic football Grand National for disappointed also rans" :)

I do wait for next year and hope you are right but I believe we are so far behind the curve! a LOT has to be done including a change at the Management layer with some experienced coach to open their eyes and work on the obvious!"]Royaldunne you forgot to sign back in on your original profile :D"]Not the first time

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2195 - 27/06/2023 18:20:54    2490221

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Replying To JonnieG:  "
Replying To seadog54:  "[quote=JonnieG:  "I think the argument here is have we improved or not after the first year and in my opinion the answer is no.
People getting excited about having an improved midfield and forward line with some new young lads....... because they played ok against Waterford and Wexford!! but remember most of them were also there in our league games where we finished near the bottom of the pile and against Offaly! Where we didn't rack up big scores.
So a bit naive to be saying that these lads are good yet!! As someone else said above - proof of the pudding will be in next years Div 2!!
I am also a bit shocked at the naivety in the management setup to thing that we can go out in the modern game and just try and score more than the opposition without worrying on our own defense!! That needs to change next year too. That should have changes this year and yet we were nearly pipped by Antrim in the second last match of the year who went on a scoring spree near the end!! Absolutely inexcusable and beyond belief!!
Getting positive about seeing us "stretch the lead back out after they got back to 1 with the momentum behind them" is not where I want the ambition level to be with my county to be honest!!
And i know people will say we are not the team we used to be but that will never diminish the expectation levels I have for my county! I want us to be competing for All Irelands again and not TCs. And if we have to "rebuild" and "bring in new players" every time we get a new manager we are going nowhere!! I will go back to Mickey Harte and Louth who nearly got promoted to Div 1 this year after being in Div 4 two years ago! Do you think they imported a bunch of super hero's out of the blue? No.... just a good manager showing that there is not that much gulf in class between Louth footballers and all other counties maybe with the exception of 3 or 4 counties like dubs, Kerry etc...
Unless you are telling me all of a sudden that there is a gulf in class between the Louth clubs and the Meath clubs??
you can be assured that Mickey Harte was terribly disappointed in their All Ireland campaign but thats the level we have to be at......being disappointed that we got beaten against th big teams!

So this year is a write-off in my opinion and I will only see improvement next year if we are fighting for promotion to Div 1 and we have a decent run in the All Ireland (if we get there) beating some good teams on the way!!"
You are taking many posts out of context, nobody is getting over exited or belive we are anywhere we need to be, posters by and large are happy to see Meath winning a few games. Everybody knows it's Div 3, 4 teams we are playing, but for some reason the fact that COR is doing what he set out to do is really annoying some posters. Seems there was more than one dissapointed man in CP at weekend. We have made many changes since league, both players and style of football, not getting stuck with one game plan and expecting players not suited to adapt. Louth came up through the divisions which gave Harte the chance to experiment and build a decent side, COR is doing similar using TC. Once again harking back to glory days with head firmly planted in the sand has us where we are. "We are Meath" means nothing today, I have no doubt management and panel will do us proud in years to come. You rightly say we should be dissapointed when we loose, however a very small minority seem to be dissapointed when we win."
What has COR "set out to do" ??? Rebuild??? Dont say it!!!
Mickey Harte used the O'Byrne Cup to experiment and started on the upward spiral after that!
If you are taking a whole campaign to experiment you are not in the right game. Most managers nowadays do a few years and move on.
And I am not harking back to glory days - I am saying that I expect Meath to be at least maintaining a high ranking in Leinster and at least compete in All Irelands!! but on this years results we have been passed out by Louth, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath at least and Playing TC!
And as to adapting to different game plans..... I have no clue what you are talking about! 8 points up against Antrim and getting destroyed in the last 10 minutes is not a game plan I have seen before?? I believe closing out a game is a plan they haven't worked on yet!!

Sorry but I am still annoyed we ended up in the TC! The word improve means to get better! so you start at where you left off and work from there. We got worse this year and it is all masked by the mere fact that people are happy and excited we are playing in croke park again (like we pretty much have done every year anyway in the past!!) in a "Final" of the "Gaelic football Grand National for disappointed also rans" :)

I do wait for next year and hope you are right but I believe we are so far behind the curve! a LOT has to be done including a change at the Management layer with some experienced coach to open their eyes and work on the obvious!"]People making out the fact that we are in the Tailteann cup for the first time proves we are at an all time low doesn't stand up. The reason this is the first time is only because it is a new system, had the system being in place for the last 20 years we would have been in it a few times previously.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 27/06/2023 21:32:53    2490253

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I'm not getting over excited about the TC.
But if we win it (being honest Down look like deserving favourites atm) I will say this is definitely a better season than last even if its the secondary competition.

Last year in championship we easily beat the worst team in division 3, got our annual hammering by Dublin followed by being knocked out by Clare in the qualifiers.

Had we still had the old system been in place this year our season probably would have played out like they often did in last 15 years or so, maybe beat a bad team in the qualifiers before getting a real beating by a good team. Had we qualified for the main competition (and lets face it the new competition structure is strange that Division 4 Sligo took a place in main competition by virtue of beating NY and London and we finished sixth in Division 2 but play in TC) we would probably have taken a bad beating by both the division 1 teams in our group (we usually take bad beatings when playing division 1 teams in recent years) and (maybe) have a competitive game had we played the other team in the group.

Going on Meath teams performances in last 15 years it would have been very unusual had COR turned us around in one year to be competitive.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 27/06/2023 22:55:37    2490275

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Replying To JonnieG:  ""5 championship wins in a row" ?? you mean "Cup" wins... against Div 3 and 4 sides!! We were knocked out of the "championship" (Leinster) by one of those Div 3 teams! and we didn't even make the other "Championship" because of our very poor league performance!!
And you are talking about COR improving the team? I even saw an article in the Independent talking about him improving Meath.... coincidently a paper he writes for!

Lets not be getting ahead of ourselves here. Still conceding scores like 2:14 against teams like Antrim. We have been doing it all year and if those Div 3 and 4 teams were Div 1 and 2 teams you would not be talking about improvement!!
Was it not obvious during the league ( with the worst Against record in all of the leagues) that we needed to work on a better defensive system or work on players tacking abilities
We got obliterated by Dublin and I pick Dublin because he said himself that he should be judged on those matches against the Dubs.

And this BS about building a team an bringing in new lads...... how long am I hearing that in Meath? mickey Harte goes to louth and the impact is immediate. He doesn't have to wait for for a few new births in the county. That guy for Roscommon same. Good managers dont have to talk about "rebuilding" at senior intercounty level because the players are already "built" and they shape them into a performing team!
We beat Cork in the very first league match this year ....... Cork are now in an all Ireland QF!! So between us and Cork.....who is improving??

His very fist mistake was his backroom staff. Of all people I thought COR would have gone for one of the top experienced coaches in the game. Like Kevin McStay did. To be fair to Bernard Flynn his backroom staff included Rocheford and Quirke i think! Why didnt COR have someone like that?
And because of that you could see that naivety in all our performances this year. No game plan on turnovers, no defensive system from what I could see.
Now I am not saying that the coaches that are there are not good but at least one with an abundance of mens senior intercounty experience in the modern game would have helped!! I heard good things about the ex ladies coach but a different game and maybe he too could benefit from a more experienced head working with him.

I believe that if he did that, we would not be playing TC this year!! And lets face it... I wouldnt be going to any homecoming if they win that!!

So disagree on any improvement this year. Terrible year and nothing to write home about even if we win the Final.

If COR is to improve anything next year he must look for a big coaching ticket. Someone that can make them a unit (attack and defence) and can quickly spot a flaw and change things up if needed during a match!"
While I agree with most of what you say, it is not a terrible year if we win the Tailteann cup, as it guarantees us all ireland football next year. I completely agree with the '5 championship wins in a row, if we had lost to any one of them other than down it would have been embarrassing. There has been a better game plan in recent weeks, but not exactly a great one as we are still conceding massive scores.

contributingtoamelee (Meath) - Posts: 55 - 27/06/2023 23:51:40    2490290

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Replying To seadog54:  "
Replying To JonnieG:  "[quote=seadog54:  "[quote=JonnieG:  "I think the argument here is have we improved or not after the first year and in my opinion the answer is no.
People getting excited about having an improved midfield and forward line with some new young lads....... because they played ok against Waterford and Wexford!! but remember most of them were also there in our league games where we finished near the bottom of the pile and against Offaly! Where we didn't rack up big scores.
So a bit naive to be saying that these lads are good yet!! As someone else said above - proof of the pudding will be in next years Div 2!!
I am also a bit shocked at the naivety in the management setup to thing that we can go out in the modern game and just try and score more than the opposition without worrying on our own defense!! That needs to change next year too. That should have changes this year and yet we were nearly pipped by Antrim in the second last match of the year who went on a scoring spree near the end!! Absolutely inexcusable and beyond belief!!
Getting positive about seeing us "stretch the lead back out after they got back to 1 with the momentum behind them" is not where I want the ambition level to be with my county to be honest!!
And i know people will say we are not the team we used to be but that will never diminish the expectation levels I have for my county! I want us to be competing for All Irelands again and not TCs. And if we have to "rebuild" and "bring in new players" every time we get a new manager we are going nowhere!! I will go back to Mickey Harte and Louth who nearly got promoted to Div 1 this year after being in Div 4 two years ago! Do you think they imported a bunch of super hero's out of the blue? No.... just a good manager showing that there is not that much gulf in class between Louth footballers and all other counties maybe with the exception of 3 or 4 counties like dubs, Kerry etc...
Unless you are telling me all of a sudden that there is a gulf in class between the Louth clubs and the Meath clubs??
you can be assured that Mickey Harte was terribly disappointed in their All Ireland campaign but thats the level we have to be at......being disappointed that we got beaten against th big teams!

So this year is a write-off in my opinion and I will only see improvement next year if we are fighting for promotion to Div 1 and we have a decent run in the All Ireland (if we get there) beating some good teams on the way!!"
You are taking many posts out of context, nobody is getting over exited or belive we are anywhere we need to be, posters by and large are happy to see Meath winning a few games. Everybody knows it's Div 3, 4 teams we are playing, but for some reason the fact that COR is doing what he set out to do is really annoying some posters. Seems there was more than one dissapointed man in CP at weekend. We have made many changes since league, both players and style of football, not getting stuck with one game plan and expecting players not suited to adapt. Louth came up through the divisions which gave Harte the chance to experiment and build a decent side, COR is doing similar using TC. Once again harking back to glory days with head firmly planted in the sand has us where we are. "We are Meath" means nothing today, I have no doubt management and panel will do us proud in years to come. You rightly say we should be dissapointed when we loose, however a very small minority seem to be dissapointed when we win."
What has COR "set out to do" ??? Rebuild??? Dont say it!!!
Mickey Harte used the O'Byrne Cup to experiment and started on the upward spiral after that!
If you are taking a whole campaign to experiment you are not in the right game. Most managers nowadays do a few years and move on.
And I am not harking back to glory days - I am saying that I expect Meath to be at least maintaining a high ranking in Leinster and at least compete in All Irelands!! but on this years results we have been passed out by Louth, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath at least and Playing TC!
And as to adapting to different game plans..... I have no clue what you are talking about! 8 points up against Antrim and getting destroyed in the last 10 minutes is not a game plan I have seen before?? I believe closing out a game is a plan they haven't worked on yet!!

Sorry but I am still annoyed we ended up in the TC! The word improve means to get better! so you start at where you left off and work from there. We got worse this year and it is all masked by the mere fact that people are happy and excited we are playing in croke park again (like we pretty much have done every year anyway in the past!!) in a "Final" of the "Gaelic football Grand National for disappointed also rans" :)

I do wait for next year and hope you are right but I believe we are so far behind the curve! a LOT has to be done including a change at the Management layer with some experienced coach to open their eyes and work on the obvious!"]As you say most managers do a few years and move on, there lies the heart of our problem. Different game plans was a referal to last few years when management attempted a plan that did not suit, week after week with same outcome. We were unlucky to end up in TC, Connaght shewed the draw, otherwise we could have gotten our yearly hammering but walked away with heads held high, just like Louth, that beating will stand to them in next years league. No we did not get destroyed in last ten minutes, subs had negative impact unlike other games, but the lads stood up when things got tight and kicked late points to win tight game, exactly the type of game we needed. The league was poor, but many predicted a drop to division three based on evidence of previous year. We beat ourselves in more than one game but thats part of the learning process you seem set against. Nothing wrong with people been happy to play in CP their called supporters happy to see a young team do well. Just a small step, but in the right direction. Nobody denies defence needs work, COR said when taking over that more names would be added to management, but for whatever reason he was let down, what had just played out with CB and previous manager may have led coaches to have another think about putting their rep on that mess. Things are more settled this time so I expect an addition or shake up within management group. The positive from TC is we have what looks like a decent panel with a few more to come back from injury, evidence suggests we have addressed some of our long term issues, the rest, like it or not, is a work in progress."]So Subs having a negative impact means it was OK for Antrim to claw back an 8 point lead? Sorry i should have given COR and the team more credit so!
As for Louth I don't think the beating will have any impact on them next year and will look at the fact that they nearly got promoted to Div 1 and their last game against Mayo!

So a question for those who care...... What if Meath get beaten in the final? where does that leave us? are we still excited we got out day out in CP and the "young lads" will have benefited from that experience? I do actually think we have to win that match.
Look at Cavan who were beaten in last years final.... still plying their trade down there and lost a lot of players because of it! Couldnt even make the final this year! and are in danger of slipping through the ranks again!!

Thats what happens when you slip down the ranks....hard to get back up!

Look.... I actually think that if Meath had a good coach in the ranks and stayed in the All Ireland we would have taken some scalps and could have got to a QF like Cork for example!! Thats one thing that has not left the Meath teams is their belief that they can still beat any team! This BS about not having players and need to wait for "young lads" (average age of an intercounty team is probably nearly 23 at this stage!!) to come in and transform Meath .... you are kidding yourselves! Surely our players are not that bad!!
And it doesnt matter how many young lads you bring in...if they are not coached properly and to good systems they will end up like all other young lads that went through the system! People getting excited because we seem to have a good midfield now.... when we play the Div 1 and 2 teams they wont get a sniff of the ball because it will be 90% short kickouts!
At the end of the day and believe it or not COR is a very inexperienced intercounty manager and that's not a shot at him! I want him to succeed but he needs to realize that himself and maybe take the pride down a level and look for help! Kevin McStay surrounded himself with top class coaches in Mayo! Michey harte has his trustworthy general! Jack O Connor knew they had a defensive problem and brought in a top class coach to fix that! List goes on...

So forgive me about not getting excited about the TC final as I expected a lot more this year but I will hope for next year. And I think that ONE critical change is enough to propel us to the next level and that's a Coach!!

JonnieG (Meath) - Posts: 246 - 28/06/2023 10:16:27    2490334

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Will clubs be playing league finals this weekend without their county players? One would presume so, which is totally wrong. Will the club championships be put back?

BigJoe14 (Meath) - Posts: 997 - 28/06/2023 11:37:54    2490373

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Replying To BigJoe14:  "Will clubs be playing league finals this weekend without their county players? One would presume so, which is totally wrong. Will the club championships be put back?"
Not sure on players being available for the league finals but club championship should not be put back. Absolutely no chance.

Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 1003 - 28/06/2023 12:20:24    2490390

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I'm not getting over excited about the TC.
But if we win it (being honest Down look like deserving favourites atm) I will say this is definitely a better season than last even if its the secondary competition.

Last year in championship we easily beat the worst team in division 3, got our annual hammering by Dublin followed by being knocked out by Clare in the qualifiers.

Had we still had the old system been in place this year our season probably would have played out like they often did in last 15 years or so, maybe beat a bad team in the qualifiers before getting a real beating by a good team. Had we qualified for the main competition (and lets face it the new competition structure is strange that Division 4 Sligo took a place in main competition by virtue of beating NY and London and we finished sixth in Division 2 but play in TC) we would probably have taken a bad beating by both the division 1 teams in our group (we usually take bad beatings when playing division 1 teams in recent years) and (maybe) have a competitive game had we played the other team in the group.

Going on Meath teams performances in last 15 years it would have been very unusual had COR turned us around in one year to be competitive."
No one expected us to be turned around in one year. But he should have kept us at around same level. We dropped back by any measure used.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 28/06/2023 12:57:42    2490407

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Replying To royaldunne:  "No one expected us to be turned around in one year. But he should have kept us at around same level. We dropped back by any measure used."
Did we really drop back though...
We won the exact same amount of league games this year as last year while playing more home game last year.
We scored 13 points at home to Wicklow, a few early goals papered over the cracks.
Got absolutely hammered by Dublin again before getting dumped out comfortably by Clare.

This year we won 2 league games, had a massive off day against Offaly which can happen.
We have now 5 games in a row which has shown that was an off day.

I am not sure how you can judge last year to be any better than this year....

Maestro (Meath) - Posts: 584 - 28/06/2023 14:14:44    2490427

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Replying To royaldunne:  "No one expected us to be turned around in one year. But he should have kept us at around same level. We dropped back by any measure used."
In my opinion the Offaly championship loss was our worst result since Andy lost to Longford in 2018. But overall COR, in my opinion has kept us at 'around' the same level we were in Andy's last season. Andy got 6 points in last D2 league campaign, COR got 5 points. (The expectation would have been that staying in D2 this year would have have kept us out of TC but the championship draw in Connaught meant that we were pushed into TC, luck of the draw played a big part).
There is not a huge difference being one of the worst teams in main competition and being one of the best in the TC.
There has been a lot of experimentation since Colm came in, especially in the TC. Because of this people need to realise we are looking at work in progress and give the management/ players time to develop and not jump in and try to increase the feeling of we being in a crisis after every setback. Any guarantees it will prove a success, No. But they need to be given a chance.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 28/06/2023 14:29:22    2490433

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "In my opinion the Offaly championship loss was our worst result since Andy lost to Longford in 2018. But overall COR, in my opinion has kept us at 'around' the same level we were in Andy's last season. Andy got 6 points in last D2 league campaign, COR got 5 points. (The expectation would have been that staying in D2 this year would have have kept us out of TC but the championship draw in Connaught meant that we were pushed into TC, luck of the draw played a big part).
There is not a huge difference being one of the worst teams in main competition and being one of the best in the TC.
There has been a lot of experimentation since Colm came in, especially in the TC. Because of this people need to realise we are looking at work in progress and give the management/ players time to develop and not jump in and try to increase the feeling of we being in a crisis after every setback. Any guarantees it will prove a success, No. But they need to be given a chance."
Too many people going on about how "unlucky" we were on how we ended up in the TC! no such thing as luck! It wasnt rocket science since the start of the year that Connaught would have a Div 3/4 team in the final.
All we had to do is get a result against kildare on the last day but we got hammered by them! you would have thought we would have given Leinster a bigger push knowing we would end up in the TC but we get beaten by Offaly!!
And what experimentation do you talk of?? what did we learn this year? Playing a bunch of players in different positions is not experimentation! you do that in the O'Byrne cup as i said before!

JonnieG (Meath) - Posts: 246 - 28/06/2023 14:54:39    2490440

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "In my opinion the Offaly championship loss was our worst result since Andy lost to Longford in 2018. But overall COR, in my opinion has kept us at 'around' the same level we were in Andy's last season. Andy got 6 points in last D2 league campaign, COR got 5 points. (The expectation would have been that staying in D2 this year would have have kept us out of TC but the championship draw in Connaught meant that we were pushed into TC, luck of the draw played a big part).
There is not a huge difference being one of the worst teams in main competition and being one of the best in the TC.
There has been a lot of experimentation since Colm came in, especially in the TC. Because of this people need to realise we are looking at work in progress and give the management/ players time to develop and not jump in and try to increase the feeling of we being in a crisis after every setback. Any guarantees it will prove a success, No. But they need to be given a chance."
Agree with all you say, would have taken survival in Div 2 and TC final at start of season. Little difference than previous season. Some posters happy to analyse our every fault while bigging up the likes of Louth and others similar to ourselves, in truth there is little between the teams in next years Div 2 and I would be confident we will qualify for next years A/L series on merit. If we win TC, great, but I think we have got what we really needed, experience, confidence and the chance to build a decent panel. Some used the opinion of TV pundits to add weight to own views on how poor we were, well same pundits have highlighted the improvements in defence and indeed overall setup. Pay little attention myself but cannot have it both ways. We are less than a year into new management term and I for one am quite happy with progress, not one poster has said we are where we want to be. We have addressed some long standing issues that have been a weight around our neck and the most important thing is complete buy in from players, young lads will not commit and are the first to call bull..t if they think management are out of their debt. Enjoy the win's everyone knows they come with a few if's and but's.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2195 - 28/06/2023 15:43:17    2490455

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Replying To JonnieG:  "
Replying To seadog54:  "[quote=JonnieG:  "[quote=seadog54:  "[quote=JonnieG:  "I think the argument here is have we improved or not after the first year and in my opinion the answer is no.
People getting excited about having an improved midfield and forward line with some new young lads....... because they played ok against Waterford and Wexford!! but remember most of them were also there in our league games where we finished near the bottom of the pile and against Offaly! Where we didn't rack up big scores.
So a bit naive to be saying that these lads are good yet!! As someone else said above - proof of the pudding will be in next years Div 2!!
I am also a bit shocked at the naivety in the management setup to thing that we can go out in the modern game and just try and score more than the opposition without worrying on our own defense!! That needs to change next year too. That should have changes this year and yet we were nearly pipped by Antrim in the second last match of the year who went on a scoring spree near the end!! Absolutely inexcusable and beyond belief!!
Getting positive about seeing us "stretch the lead back out after they got back to 1 with the momentum behind them" is not where I want the ambition level to be with my county to be honest!!
And i know people will say we are not the team we used to be but that will never diminish the expectation levels I have for my county! I want us to be competing for All Irelands again and not TCs. And if we have to "rebuild" and "bring in new players" every time we get a new manager we are going nowhere!! I will go back to Mickey Harte and Louth who nearly got promoted to Div 1 this year after being in Div 4 two years ago! Do you think they imported a bunch of super hero's out of the blue? No.... just a good manager showing that there is not that much gulf in class between Louth footballers and all other counties maybe with the exception of 3 or 4 counties like dubs, Kerry etc...
Unless you are telling me all of a sudden that there is a gulf in class between the Louth clubs and the Meath clubs??
you can be assured that Mickey Harte was terribly disappointed in their All Ireland campaign but thats the level we have to be at......being disappointed that we got beaten against th big teams!

So this year is a write-off in my opinion and I will only see improvement next year if we are fighting for promotion to Div 1 and we have a decent run in the All Ireland (if we get there) beating some good teams on the way!!"
You are taking many posts out of context, nobody is getting over exited or belive we are anywhere we need to be, posters by and large are happy to see Meath winning a few games. Everybody knows it's Div 3, 4 teams we are playing, but for some reason the fact that COR is doing what he set out to do is really annoying some posters. Seems there was more than one dissapointed man in CP at weekend. We have made many changes since league, both players and style of football, not getting stuck with one game plan and expecting players not suited to adapt. Louth came up through the divisions which gave Harte the chance to experiment and build a decent side, COR is doing similar using TC. Once again harking back to glory days with head firmly planted in the sand has us where we are. "We are Meath" means nothing today, I have no doubt management and panel will do us proud in years to come. You rightly say we should be dissapointed when we loose, however a very small minority seem to be dissapointed when we win."
What has COR "set out to do" ??? Rebuild??? Dont say it!!!
Mickey Harte used the O'Byrne Cup to experiment and started on the upward spiral after that!
If you are taking a whole campaign to experiment you are not in the right game. Most managers nowadays do a few years and move on.
And I am not harking back to glory days - I am saying that I expect Meath to be at least maintaining a high ranking in Leinster and at least compete in All Irelands!! but on this years results we have been passed out by Louth, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath at least and Playing TC!
And as to adapting to different game plans..... I have no clue what you are talking about! 8 points up against Antrim and getting destroyed in the last 10 minutes is not a game plan I have seen before?? I believe closing out a game is a plan they haven't worked on yet!!

Sorry but I am still annoyed we ended up in the TC! The word improve means to get better! so you start at where you left off and work from there. We got worse this year and it is all masked by the mere fact that people are happy and excited we are playing in croke park again (like we pretty much have done every year anyway in the past!!) in a "Final" of the "Gaelic football Grand National for disappointed also rans" :)

I do wait for next year and hope you are right but I believe we are so far behind the curve! a LOT has to be done including a change at the Management layer with some experienced coach to open their eyes and work on the obvious!"]As you say most managers do a few years and move on, there lies the heart of our problem. Different game plans was a referal to last few years when management attempted a plan that did not suit, week after week with same outcome. We were unlucky to end up in TC, Connaght shewed the draw, otherwise we could have gotten our yearly hammering but walked away with heads held high, just like Louth, that beating will stand to them in next years league. No we did not get destroyed in last ten minutes, subs had negative impact unlike other games, but the lads stood up when things got tight and kicked late points to win tight game, exactly the type of game we needed. The league was poor, but many predicted a drop to division three based on evidence of previous year. We beat ourselves in more than one game but thats part of the learning process you seem set against. Nothing wrong with people been happy to play in CP their called supporters happy to see a young team do well. Just a small step, but in the right direction. Nobody denies defence needs work, COR said when taking over that more names would be added to management, but for whatever reason he was let down, what had just played out with CB and previous manager may have led coaches to have another think about putting their rep on that mess. Things are more settled this time so I expect an addition or shake up within management group. The positive from TC is we have what looks like a decent panel with a few more to come back from injury, evidence suggests we have addressed some of our long term issues, the rest, like it or not, is a work in progress."]So Subs having a negative impact means it was OK for Antrim to claw back an 8 point lead? Sorry i should have given COR and the team more credit so!
As for Louth I don't think the beating will have any impact on them next year and will look at the fact that they nearly got promoted to Div 1 and their last game against Mayo!

So a question for those who care...... What if Meath get beaten in the final? where does that leave us? are we still excited we got out day out in CP and the "young lads" will have benefited from that experience? I do actually think we have to win that match.
Look at Cavan who were beaten in last years final.... still plying their trade down there and lost a lot of players because of it! Couldnt even make the final this year! and are in danger of slipping through the ranks again!!

Thats what happens when you slip down the ranks....hard to get back up!

Look.... I actually think that if Meath had a good coach in the ranks and stayed in the All Ireland we would have taken some scalps and could have got to a QF like Cork for example!! Thats one thing that has not left the Meath teams is their belief that they can still beat any team! This BS about not having players and need to wait for "young lads" (average age of an intercounty team is probably nearly 23 at this stage!!) to come in and transform Meath .... you are kidding yourselves! Surely our players are not that bad!!
And it doesnt matter how many young lads you bring in...if they are not coached properly and to good systems they will end up like all other young lads that went through the system! People getting excited because we seem to have a good midfield now.... when we play the Div 1 and 2 teams they wont get a sniff of the ball because it will be 90% short kickouts!
At the end of the day and believe it or not COR is a very inexperienced intercounty manager and that's not a shot at him! I want him to succeed but he needs to realize that himself and maybe take the pride down a level and look for help! Kevin McStay surrounded himself with top class coaches in Mayo! Michey harte has his trustworthy general! Jack O Connor knew they had a defensive problem and brought in a top class coach to fix that! List goes on...

So forgive me about not getting excited about the TC final as I expected a lot more this year but I will hope for next year. And I think that ONE critical change is enough to propel us to the next level and that's a Coach!!"]No it was not ok for Antrim to claw back the lead, the game was made for our subs to come on and drive us home, for whatever reason it had to opposite affect. You spend too much energy surmising how other teams might do, or how we may have fared if we got to A/I series, we are where we are. Let people get excited, its a long time coming, relax, take the head out of the sand, its not COR fault we have fallen so badly, it has been years in the making, no top coach wanted anything to dò with Meath setup and who can blame them. What coach would not want a shot a Mayo, contenders year after year, if comparing at least go like for like. MH had the chance to bring Louth through the divisions same as Derry. Cork fair play to them make quarters but only because the way DB set up Roscommon to play keep ball and seemed afraid to try win the game. All games have their own story but in your desire to bash Meath and management you are happy to cherry pick examples. Enjoy the journey, we have a decent team in the making

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2195 - 28/06/2023 16:15:13    2490467

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Replying To JonnieG:  "Too many people going on about how "unlucky" we were on how we ended up in the TC! no such thing as luck! It wasnt rocket science since the start of the year that Connaught would have a Div 3/4 team in the final.
All we had to do is get a result against kildare on the last day but we got hammered by them! you would have thought we would have given Leinster a bigger push knowing we would end up in the TC but we get beaten by Offaly!!
And what experimentation do you talk of?? what did we learn this year? Playing a bunch of players in different positions is not experimentation! you do that in the O'Byrne cup as i said before!"
Not so long ago we also had a one off game against Kildare to get promoted to Div one but flopped badly against an understrength side. So little has changed, although we did show more maturity.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2195 - 28/06/2023 16:25:17    2490472

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Replying To JonnieG:  "Too many people going on about how "unlucky" we were on how we ended up in the TC! no such thing as luck! It wasnt rocket science since the start of the year that Connaught would have a Div 3/4 team in the final.
All we had to do is get a result against kildare on the last day but we got hammered by them! you would have thought we would have given Leinster a bigger push knowing we would end up in the TC but we get beaten by Offaly!!
And what experimentation do you talk of?? what did we learn this year? Playing a bunch of players in different positions is not experimentation! you do that in the O'Byrne cup as i said before!"
Even after the league it looked like we would not be pushed into TC. It was Clare knocking Cork out of Munster in combination with Sligo/New York/ London being on the same side of the Connaught draw (meaning one of these would get to the Connaught final) that knocked us out.
Initially when this system was though up it was envisioned that the Tailteann cup would be for D3 and D4 teams and even when the proposal was changed to guarantee provincial finalists a go at the main competition few would have though it likely if you stayed up in division 2 on a given year (meaning your in the top 14 teams in country in terms of league standings) you would be pushed out of the 16 team main comp. Maybe this will be the norm and we're just not used to it yet.
Clare earned their place in main comp by beating Cork, Sligo got their ticket to the main competition due only to luck of the draw which cost Meath.

By the way the only reason I'm saying this is to point out it's unfair to say we're in the TC this year so this season automatically must be the worst ever, if you say this your not comparing like with like in comparing this year to other years as the system wasn't in place before (as I said before in 2022 we got 6 points in the league, in 2023 we got 5 points, our performance was similar both years in the league).

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 50 - 28/06/2023 16:35:25    2490475

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Replying To Maestro:  "Did we really drop back though...
We won the exact same amount of league games this year as last year while playing more home game last year.
We scored 13 points at home to Wicklow, a few early goals papered over the cracks.
Got absolutely hammered by Dublin again before getting dumped out comfortably by Clare.

This year we won 2 league games, had a massive off day against Offaly which can happen.
We have now 5 games in a row which has shown that was an off day.

I am not sure how you can judge last year to be any better than this year...."
When comparing this year's performance to the previous regime it is probably not much different to last year. But you must remember that Andy McEntee had an impossible task trying to motivate the team last year after the charade with the Co board the previous autumn. He also went into the first 3-4 games of the league without Menton, Jones and McGill (all injured) with no replacements ready to fill in. They would have won at least 2 more league games with these lads on board. The previous year we were 2 bad refereeing decisions away from beating Dublin in the Leinster semi final. Then the Co. board stepped in and if it was not for his passion for the team Andy Mc would have walked (he should have for his own sake). The positive thing from this year is that the talent from successful minor teams of 2018-2021 is starting to come through. A win in the TC Final should give these lads more confidence going into next year and a push for promotion to division 1.

kingofclubs (Meath) - Posts: 330 - 28/06/2023 16:47:07    2490477

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Replying To GreenMan1987:  "Even after the league it looked like we would not be pushed into TC. It was Clare knocking Cork out of Munster in combination with Sligo/New York/ London being on the same side of the Connaught draw (meaning one of these would get to the Connaught final) that knocked us out.
Initially when this system was though up it was envisioned that the Tailteann cup would be for D3 and D4 teams and even when the proposal was changed to guarantee provincial finalists a go at the main competition few would have though it likely if you stayed up in division 2 on a given year (meaning your in the top 14 teams in country in terms of league standings) you would be pushed out of the 16 team main comp. Maybe this will be the norm and we're just not used to it yet.
Clare earned their place in main comp by beating Cork, Sligo got their ticket to the main competition due only to luck of the draw which cost Meath.

By the way the only reason I'm saying this is to point out it's unfair to say we're in the TC this year so this season automatically must be the worst ever, if you say this your not comparing like with like in comparing this year to other years as the system wasn't in place before (as I said before in 2022 we got 6 points in the league, in 2023 we got 5 points, our performance was similar both years in the league)."
I knew these permutations before a ball was kicked in the league. I also knew that getting to a Leinster final would keep us in All Ireland series. So it was in their own hands from the start to be honest. Dont finish in the bottom 4 of the league to be guaranteed place in All Ireland and if that fails get to a leinster final. So irrespective of the shambles of the format of the competitions, it was nothing to do with luck! you should be out to guarantee that you do not end up in that position.
I dont believe it is unfair that we ended up there. It was deserved based on our performances.
In fact it makes this years league performance worse than last years from that point of view knowing where we had to finish!

JonnieG (Meath) - Posts: 246 - 28/06/2023 18:01:17    2490495

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