Meath Forum

Meath V Dublin

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "In fairness fundamental issues were still a problem years into the last management reign. We were talking about stuff like goal keeper selection/ kick out strategy and free takers years into that era.
Intercounty management is hard, it's easy to be critical from the outside and it's hard to get everything right at the same time.
Some people on here are overly critical, COR only 6 competitive matches into his reign.
COR is trying to play a more attacking brand of football and he is new to inter county management, it is not that surprising that there is teething issues here.
One thing about O'Rourke is he's a winner, he proved that in his playing career and what he turned St. Pats into in collages football.
There may be some truth that he has not yet adapted to modern intercounty tactics (it's his first intercounty job) but he's an intelligent man, I would back him over time to overcome these."
I sincerely hope he does. Look I totally agree with you that previous management had a lot of issues too, same as O'Dowd had. (I do think getting rid of the likes of O'Connor ward Farrell etc too early didn't help him) and I'm sure if he was asked now he would say that was a mistake in hindsight which we all know is 20/20. But Andy tried 13 different keepers to sort out the problem. I have 3 areas of concern with Colm.
1, fitness and pace. It has decreased dramatically, Dublin lads can run 100meters without anyone been able to catch them, but I'll give that a pass, they are dubs so are way ahead of us, but the Limerick lads did similar granted without the flare or ability of what we saw Saturday so that worries me.
2, defensive set up. There doesn't seem to be one. O'Neil seems like he could make a decent defender as he has strengths. But there doesn't seem to be any help for the 3 lads at the back , their markers seem to be able to hold them off at will, and I can't blame them I think they are been hung out to dry by the team set ups. They're hugely inexperienced and I don't think it's a good idea to be left to themselves.
3. Game plan. What is it ? Do we have one ? What appeared v Derry and Dublin was to go man to man. For the life of me I can't interpret that as been a good idea. I mean the definition of stupidity is to do they same thing over and over again expecting different results.

I think Colm needs to get a handle on these things. Someone said he has no input into training well then I'd pull in the coaches and say sort it out, tactically I think he needs assistance. Any back room people I think he needs cb should foot the bill, top
Ones will take it if they getting well rewarded for their efforts. He is only 6 games plus obc and challenges into his tenure and I think he now realises that to
Implement plans take longer than expected. But small things can make a huge difference going forward. These things can be sorted out quickly then the bigger issues of raising us further up the rankings can be achieved

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 21/03/2023 16:43:02    2465556

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Replying To ratlag:  "It's not completely fair to put all blame at O Rourke's door, but whether people like it or not, he does have to take, and deservedly so, the brunt of it. Setting up a basic defensive game plan does not take 6 months to implement, a decent coach with intelligent players (which we do have) should be able to do it in half that time. Even if all he did in his first year was work on that, he would manage to keep games tight, and then in a tight game you can rely on a Walsh, Costello, Morris etc to hopefully kick you some winning scores.

In Andys first year (after a so called dismal year with Mick O Dowd) we conceded an average of 13.5 scores per game.
In his last year, where he had apparently long overstayed his time and we were apparently one of the worst Meath teams ever, we conceded an average of 12.5 scores per game.
Yes we weren't the prettiest team to watch but we didn't get cut through like we are this year and concede after 6 games only, an average of 17.6 scores per game.

Whatever about playing an exciting attacking brand of football which Colm is trying to do (and I hope he manages to achieve it) he is quite simply oblivious to how to set up defensively when we don't have the ball, or it seems tactically as well when we play against teams who are simply better than us in the likes of Derry and Dublin so far this year. This is fully the new managers fault and regardless of if he is in 6 months or 6 years he himself should have higher standards set. As all the top teams are showing, it is possible to play super defensive when we lose the ball and break at pace when you win it back. Galway, Kerry, Mayo, Derry, Dublin will all have on average 12 men minimum back in their half when they lose the ball, but are well drilled in where to be, when to engage and how to slow the opposition and set traps. They then break a pace, kick passes into space and hard runners off them."
I agree o Rourke had to take some blame no doubt.He should've went more defensive v the wind in the first half and I believe we won the toss so dont know why we didn't play with wind especially v Dublin.I agree we have yet to see a system he wants to play and of course we are all concerned about the way things have gone the last few games.I agree there is plenty more to do ie freetaker etc but he is trying it his way and learning as he goes.As was said who else wanted the job?It may not work out but there is no magic wand here.Some have mentioned we should play ultra defensive like Andy mac well we did that Dublin a number of times and got a hiding and in one game we scored 4 points.Apart fron the year Andy got promotion (fair play)we have been midtable division 2 at best so we are still the same under o Rourke.Not having a pop at Andy by the way the man done his best and I thank him for it.As I've said in previous posts the players have to take some blame as well.Did o Rourke tell his players to be sloppy with passes?Did he tell them to kick the ball over the sideline numerous times?Did he tell tell them to carry the ball into traffic and get turnover easily?Did he tell them to take pot shots from near impossible angles l?Did he tell them to let a Dublin player waltz by a 2 one ?I would say he didnt and while of course he has faults the players need to take some blame as well.On McGill yes I find strange and disappointing that he is not involved as I think he is a really good player and while of course he would make us stronger,lads on here would make you think we would win an all Ireland if he was playing and that is not on him as I would love to have him there but he is not going to fix everything at the back by himself.Also one last point Dessie Farrell was asked what can they improve on the next day and he said their kickouts,they got the majority of them away so think management and the players (Harry especially)should take a bit of credit for that and hopefully that continues for many more games.of course we are all frustrated and we all want what's best for Meath but at least give him time to get us playing a system.I think he will go himself if he doesn't improve us and I really hope he can.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 21/03/2023 16:43:33    2465557

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Replying To royaldunne:  "The lies been spouted about McGill is disgusting tbh. A man who gave everything to the county. For him to be slandered by trolling keyboard warriors is beneath contempt at this stage. And all to blame mcentee as Colm walks on water in their eyes. It has comic value but when they try to take the name of the BEST FULLBACK in county it gets too much. Poisoned trolling at its finest. You have the wonder were they the type of people to write letters to previous management and their families. Doesn't seem beneath them looking at the rubbish they wrote here."
Just three letters. MOD

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2142 - 21/03/2023 17:00:28    2465561

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Replying To Proudroyal:  "I agree o Rourke had to take some blame no doubt.He should've went more defensive v the wind in the first half and I believe we won the toss so dont know why we didn't play with wind especially v Dublin.I agree we have yet to see a system he wants to play and of course we are all concerned about the way things have gone the last few games.I agree there is plenty more to do ie freetaker etc but he is trying it his way and learning as he goes.As was said who else wanted the job?It may not work out but there is no magic wand here.Some have mentioned we should play ultra defensive like Andy mac well we did that Dublin a number of times and got a hiding and in one game we scored 4 points.Apart fron the year Andy got promotion (fair play)we have been midtable division 2 at best so we are still the same under o Rourke.Not having a pop at Andy by the way the man done his best and I thank him for it.As I've said in previous posts the players have to take some blame as well.Did o Rourke tell his players to be sloppy with passes?Did he tell them to kick the ball over the sideline numerous times?Did he tell tell them to carry the ball into traffic and get turnover easily?Did he tell them to take pot shots from near impossible angles l?Did he tell them to let a Dublin player waltz by a 2 one ?I would say he didnt and while of course he has faults the players need to take some blame as well.On McGill yes I find strange and disappointing that he is not involved as I think he is a really good player and while of course he would make us stronger,lads on here would make you think we would win an all Ireland if he was playing and that is not on him as I would love to have him there but he is not going to fix everything at the back by himself.Also one last point Dessie Farrell was asked what can they improve on the next day and he said their kickouts,they got the majority of them away so think management and the players (Harry especially)should take a bit of credit for that and hopefully that continues for many more games.of course we are all frustrated and we all want what's best for Meath but at least give him time to get us playing a system.I think he will go himself if he doesn't improve us and I really hope he can."
Very fair post, midfield and kickouts have improved, attitude of players is good, also work ethic has improved. There is no doubt he will go if things dont improve by end of next season. But hopefully a few u20 can step up and maybe unearth a few in championship this summer. I think Dublin won the toss as COR has said instruction is, play with wind if toss is won. Still an amount of work to do, before we see progress.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2142 - 21/03/2023 17:13:31    2465572

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Replying To seadog54:  "Just three letters. MOD"
Never said anything about the man personally. Just he wasn't a ic manager and should never have been appointed. more lies like the ones you spouting about McGill. Now don't forget to log in and out of ur multiple accounts

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 21/03/2023 18:06:27    2465598

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Replying To seadog54:  "Very fair post, midfield and kickouts have improved, attitude of players is good, also work ethic has improved. There is no doubt he will go if things dont improve by end of next season. But hopefully a few u20 can step up and maybe unearth a few in championship this summer. I think Dublin won the toss as COR has said instruction is, play with wind if toss is won. Still an amount of work to do, before we see progress."
Ah, I thought I read/heard somewhere we won the toss ,so I stand corrected if that's the case.Yes hopefully a few under 20s will step up and give is more options.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 21/03/2023 18:12:33    2465600

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The Honeymoon Period.................What honeymoon? Maybe because Colm was such a great player we expected Colm would just be as effective as a manager. Indeed that simply is not logical. The Great Jack O Shea What a player As a manager well not for him (his words)
Sean Boylan hardly played football at all , As a manager outstanding
So we cant compare apples with oranges player and manager different ball games
I would be fully expecting that Colm will lead a full blooded review of how things have gone after the initial period
I think he as manager would be fully aware of the need for full and fair reviews at critical stages of the development of the team AND management.. The review completes phase 1 of development. and provides massive learning for all
As a Manager Colm knows that the main skills he requires is as a co-ordinator/overseer.. Now he knows the areas of expertise required in a backroom team for modern day football.He wont have expertise in all the areas himself no more than anyone else .Jim Gavin had 23 in his backroom team ! He did say if more help was needed he would get it. That is positive news. Now if he makes his case for help that is designed to improve standards i am sure it will be granted. If not if i were him i would walk away .I do not believe it would come to that
I have always believed that the cb need to identify the key skills required for a modern day manager at intercounty level. The main skill being a co-ordinator as a manager. Colm knows the key skills required in his backroom team.
He has to oversee all areas and standards related to on field performance. He knows that !
I have said on here that i have to re calibrate my progress gauge relative to continuous improvement .I have learned that factors affecting progress like starting point and available talent pool will have a bearing on any progress Therefore i suggest the starting point for measuring Colm O Rourke as manager only starts after this critical review Phase 1 was the honeymoon period mentioned above !

nobull456 (Meath) - Posts: 1224 - 21/03/2023 19:44:01    2465618

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Replying To brian:  "Fair play sea dog, a good honest man who can have a genuine debate, and not resort to bluffing. I'd buy you a pint any day and enjoy a chat with you. You rightly called all season where we are and whilst you're on the glass half full side to my half empty we're always pretty well aligned, never too high or lower on where things are. Think we both said TC wouldn't be a terrible place whilst others stated we had to be in the all Ireland series, or county board wouldn't be happy. Good to see 99% of people on here can have reasonable chat without resorting to name calling"
My fear of TC or Div3 would put us well down the sporting ladder. Young lads need team and players to look up too. We have a few soccer internationals from county, Leinster rugby are going from strength to strength and no longer rely soley on private schools for talent, they are out and about in every county in Leinster looking for new blood. Their biggest problem at ptesent is finding pathways to keep this talent. Success follows success. We need to have a team that young lads are mad to play, yes Leinster are professional, but Meath CB need to realise the sporting picture has changed and make sure structures are in place or we risk falling further behind.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2142 - 21/03/2023 20:57:18    2465630

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Replying To seadog54:  "Very fair post, midfield and kickouts have improved, attitude of players is good, also work ethic has improved. There is no doubt he will go if things dont improve by end of next season. But hopefully a few u20 can step up and maybe unearth a few in championship this summer. I think Dublin won the toss as COR has said instruction is, play with wind if toss is won. Still an amount of work to do, before we see progress."
I'd have to disagree with this tbh. Kickouts have improved a bit because Flynn is in there and can compete better than anybody else we have, it's nothing to do with any kickout plan. And as for workrate and attitude, maybe it was a bit worse last year because things were a disaster last year. But before that from 2019-2021 the workrate and attitude was far better then than it is now. 100% I am for a change of our game plan and having a more structured approach to keeping forwards up to kick ball in. But you still have to maintain that manic workrate to help out your defense and put tackles in, in particular in the middle third and I think we've lost that. I don't think it's strictly an attitude thing but it seems like it's not a priority to burst a gut to get up back and support your defence.

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1458 - 22/03/2023 08:18:33    2465653

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Replying To seadog54:  "Very fair post, midfield and kickouts have improved, attitude of players is good, also work ethic has improved. There is no doubt he will go if things dont improve by end of next season. But hopefully a few u20 can step up and maybe unearth a few in championship this summer. I think Dublin won the toss as COR has said instruction is, play with wind if toss is won. Still an amount of work to do, before we see progress."
Dublin gave us our kick outs 95% of the time because they knew they'd turn us over handy. which they did. Our kick out completion rate doesn't tell the real story of Sunday

Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 870 - 22/03/2023 10:05:53    2465667

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Replying To Blackspot09:  "Dublin gave us our kick outs 95% of the time because they knew they'd turn us over handy. which they did. Our kick out completion rate doesn't tell the real story of Sunday"
Dublin gave us the kickouts?So why did Dessie Farrell say after the match we need to improve on their kickouts.If they gave us the kickouts why would he say it.While there is alot of things wrong for sure and I ain't saying our kickouts are sorted going on the Dublin game we have improved them.So while we can all give out about things that are going wrong and rightly so, we have to be fair and give a bit of credit when to things that go right.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 22/03/2023 10:42:58    2465684

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Replying To Proudroyal:  "Dublin gave us the kickouts?So why did Dessie Farrell say after the match we need to improve on their kickouts.If they gave us the kickouts why would he say it.While there is alot of things wrong for sure and I ain't saying our kickouts are sorted going on the Dublin game we have improved them.So while we can all give out about things that are going wrong and rightly so, we have to be fair and give a bit of credit when to things that go right."
Do you honestly think he would come out and say yeah we let them have their kick outs for the most part because we knew we'd turn them over easily and get it back. Come on lad. I will wait and see how we fare on kickouts when a team properly pushes up on us

Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 870 - 22/03/2023 11:16:10    2465704

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Replying To Blackspot09:  "Do you honestly think he would come out and say yeah we let them have their kick outs for the most part because we knew we'd turn them over easily and get it back. Come on lad. I will wait and see how we fare on kickouts when a team properly pushes up on us"
Well why did he mention the kickouts then at all .why not say nothing..why not say we could improve our shooting or can tighten up etc, no he mentioned the kickouts, so if that was as you say part of their plan to give us the kickouts why contradict himself by saying we need to improve on that?That doesn't make sense.Alot of our kickouts were won with men right up on our lads.Im not saying our kickouts are sorted but think they deserve a little bit of credit but you think otherwise so you're entitled to your opinion.Hopefully next day we improve again with them.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 256 - 22/03/2023 12:28:53    2465738

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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99:  "I'd have to disagree with this tbh. Kickouts have improved a bit because Flynn is in there and can compete better than anybody else we have, it's nothing to do with any kickout plan. And as for workrate and attitude, maybe it was a bit worse last year because things were a disaster last year. But before that from 2019-2021 the workrate and attitude was far better then than it is now. 100% I am for a change of our game plan and having a more structured approach to keeping forwards up to kick ball in. But you still have to maintain that manic workrate to help out your defense and put tackles in, in particular in the middle third and I think we've lost that. I don't think it's strictly an attitude thing but it seems like it's not a priority to burst a gut to get up back and support your defence."
100%

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/03/2023 12:48:01    2465744

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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99:  "I'd have to disagree with this tbh. Kickouts have improved a bit because Flynn is in there and can compete better than anybody else we have, it's nothing to do with any kickout plan. And as for workrate and attitude, maybe it was a bit worse last year because things were a disaster last year. But before that from 2019-2021 the workrate and attitude was far better then than it is now. 100% I am for a change of our game plan and having a more structured approach to keeping forwards up to kick ball in. But you still have to maintain that manic workrate to help out your defense and put tackles in, in particular in the middle third and I think we've lost that. I don't think it's strictly an attitude thing but it seems like it's not a priority to burst a gut to get up back and support your defence."
Not sure what part of post you disagree with? Kickouts we agree have improved, for now anyway, HH has now an option to go long, so takes a bit of pressure off him. So surely this is part of the plan. Its a fault that has dogged us for years so any improvement is welcome.
As you say workrate and effort has improved on last year which is all we can hope for after six months, little point going back 3/4 years at this stage. I cannot see how the very high line we play at times will work against most teams, especiall the better teams, they wiil just invite us on and then pick us off at will. Our coach has arrived from ladies and the defensive plan that worked is not easily adapted to work for us. Our game plan seems counterproductive, pushing up to far leaves us to open at the back and attacking area is to conjested to play our long ball game. Adjustments have to be made to game plan for it to work.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2142 - 22/03/2023 13:12:14    2465758

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Replying To Blackspot09:  "Do you honestly think he would come out and say yeah we let them have their kick outs for the most part because we knew we'd turn them over easily and get it back. Come on lad. I will wait and see how we fare on kickouts when a team properly pushes up on us"
So Meath were under no pressure at all when receiving their own kickouts? Your assumption that Dublin actually gave up Meath's kickout is absolutely ridiculous. Tell me why would they and comparing the scenarios as to why teams would use this tactic makes absolutely no sense. This is generally done by a defensively minded team against a really strong attacking team. Neither Dublin are a defensive team and even you will agree with me in that we are definitely not a potent attacking outfit. I thought both Jones and Jack Flynn won alot of primary possession under serious pressure. This was a small positive in the game. Despite having lots of possession, we could neither score enough or defend probably. The combination of both meant a hammering.

winatallcost (Meath) - Posts: 509 - 22/03/2023 18:38:09    2465904

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Could it be the Situation where o rourke wanted to see if we are to play Dublin later on where we stood again them.
Maybe now he can assess and plan accordingly just a thought I'd throw out there.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 23/03/2023 21:28:14    2466121

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Replying To winatallcost:  "So Meath were under no pressure at all when receiving their own kickouts? Your assumption that Dublin actually gave up Meath's kickout is absolutely ridiculous. Tell me why would they and comparing the scenarios as to why teams would use this tactic makes absolutely no sense. This is generally done by a defensively minded team against a really strong attacking team. Neither Dublin are a defensive team and even you will agree with me in that we are definitely not a potent attacking outfit. I thought both Jones and Jack Flynn won alot of primary possession under serious pressure. This was a small positive in the game. Despite having lots of possession, we could neither score enough or defend probably. The combination of both meant a hammering."
Ok so I probably didn't explain my thought very well. I don't mean they gave us the kick outs as in they dropped all the way back outside the 45 and let us have them but they certainly didn't go full aggressive push up on us man on man and even some of the half packs pushing in for the overload. They were quite happy for us to get them away to our wing back spots in the knowledge they would easily turn us over force the free or we would give it way cheaply.

My point is I wouldn't be reading too much into apparent reasonable success on the kicks outs because I believe Dublin were very content with us getting some away to those areas.

I would be more inclined to judge how we are progressing with our kickouts when we come up against sides who push up and make it very difficult to get them away . If we start getting success regularly in these games I would say our kick outs have improved.

Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 870 - 24/03/2023 10:01:43    2466145

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Could it be the Situation where o rourke wanted to see if we are to play Dublin later on where we stood again them.
Maybe now he can assess and plan accordingly just a thought I'd throw out there."
Great call lol ! What about derry louth and limerick was he doing the same also

grahamc9897 (Meath) - Posts: 1174 - 24/03/2023 12:12:59    2466210

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Replying To Blackspot09:  "Ok so I probably didn't explain my thought very well. I don't mean they gave us the kick outs as in they dropped all the way back outside the 45 and let us have them but they certainly didn't go full aggressive push up on us man on man and even some of the half packs pushing in for the overload. They were quite happy for us to get them away to our wing back spots in the knowledge they would easily turn us over force the free or we would give it way cheaply.

My point is I wouldn't be reading too much into apparent reasonable success on the kicks outs because I believe Dublin were very content with us getting some away to those areas.

I would be more inclined to judge how we are progressing with our kickouts when we come up against sides who push up and make it very difficult to get them away . If we start getting success regularly in these games I would say our kick outs have improved."
That's fair enough. I suppose the worry for us would be what if Dublin did go all out with a full press. Need more go long options from half forward line but do we have the personnel for this. Maybe McGowan to be picked in half forward line with Moriarty moving out when Walsh back fit would improve our kickout options.

winatallcost (Meath) - Posts: 509 - 24/03/2023 13:16:50    2466249

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