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You don't need 6 years or even a week to know that going 1v1 in defence against Dublin playing against the wind is doomed to failure.
I 'd love to know what the big master plan is. Is it a baptism of fire for the backs to leave them to fend for themselves and they'll just grow into it somehow or will there be a serious rethink about how to defend and counter attack like every other county worth talking about are doing now.
LoyalRoyal (None) - Posts: 452 - 21/03/2023 09:38:41
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Replying To seadog54: "Think you are eay off the mark with than analysis of COR. No hurler on the ditch, has been involved with many teams over the years and is fully aware of the levels Dublin and Ulster teams have taken the game to. You say he over estimated what he brings to the table and has an over inflated view of himself, simply not true, he comes across as very self aware an honest man who gave up a lot to at least try to make us better. You say his job is to put structures in place over a period of 2/3 years, well then give him that chance before trotting out slights on Colm as a person. What makes you think that what you expect in not happening? Its March in his first year, he said it again yesterday this is long term, but hopes to make us competitive in the short/medium timeframe. He took over a very poor setup and could be forgiven for using that as an excuse, so give him the time. For now its about current management, plenty of time to talk about distant future, I have no doubt by this time next year plans for succession will begin to take shape." To set out a stall for us to measure ourselves against Dublin is problematic. he may decide that this is something for Meath GAA to aim for , but it wont be under his tenure, and its even more ludicrous in the Context that he had been saying it prior to him even getting the Job, when Dublin were unbeatable. he needs to realise where we are in the order of things, and work out a plan & system & a character to deal with that reality
who else would have gone man to man. with Dublin playing against a breeze
Thelongwoodslasher (Meath) - Posts: 383 - 21/03/2023 11:17:01
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Replying To Blackspot09: "Ok so let me get this straight.
It is Andy McEntees fault that Conor McGill supposedly wasn't fit and wasn't doing what he was supposed to be doing this year ?? That is absolutely laughable.
I brought Brian Menton up because in the original post it was said it's the previous managements fault for the quality of player available to the current management so I was asking is it the previous managements fault that the best Midfielder in the county decided to opt out this year ?
And as for your "3 members of his own family" narrative.
I don't think there would be one Meath supporter on here or for that matter in the county that wouldn't have had James McEntee on the panel for all the time Andy had him on. As for the Shane. Well he definitely divides opinion but the fact is this is his 3rd Meath manager to play under so it's not just a case of him being only on there under his dad.
As for the other family member being on the panel I would agree with you on that but I think you are being extremely disingenuous by suggesting James and Shane were only on there because they were Andys family members as it suits your anti Andy McEntee narrative
And as for the 6 years v 6 months. Are you saying that you see no issue at all with the fact that there is not even a glimpse of any kind of game plan starting to take shape after probably 12/15 games? You don't see just issue with that at all?" If McGill had been taken to task in last two seasons, his attitude and fitness levels may not have been an issue,instead he was handed the no 3 jersey game after game. Getting aMeath jersey should be a privilage and something that is earned, not just handed out regardless of form. BM has retired, gave Meath his best and in fairness to him did not to be part of another rebuild. Was a big fan of JMac but again in last two years lacked consistant form, however three from family should have alarm bells ringing at CB level. Most if not all, including myself have expressed concern at way we àre setup but do so in the context that management have been in place a short time, also there was no foundations in place in which to build on, it is a total rebuild. COR to his credit has not used this as an excuse, neither does he blame his players or ref for shortfalls.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2135 - 21/03/2023 11:23:07
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Replying To seadog54: "If McGill had been taken to task in last two seasons, his attitude and fitness levels may not have been an issue,instead he was handed the no 3 jersey game after game. Getting aMeath jersey should be a privilage and something that is earned, not just handed out regardless of form. BM has retired, gave Meath his best and in fairness to him did not to be part of another rebuild. Was a big fan of JMac but again in last two years lacked consistant form, however three from family should have alarm bells ringing at CB level. Most if not all, including myself have expressed concern at way we àre setup but do so in the context that management have been in place a short time, also there was no foundations in place in which to build on, it is a total rebuild. COR to his credit has not used this as an excuse, neither does he blame his players or ref for shortfalls." I am not sure if there was a problem with McGill's attitude and fitness in last two seasons. His confrontation with COR stemmed from him looking for a break after Leinster club championship. Other than that this post is a fair assessment of where we are at.
kingofclubs (Meath) - Posts: 321 - 21/03/2023 11:47:39
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Replying To Thelongwoodslasher: "To set out a stall for us to measure ourselves against Dublin is problematic. he may decide that this is something for Meath GAA to aim for , but it wont be under his tenure, and its even more ludicrous in the Context that he had been saying it prior to him even getting the Job, when Dublin were unbeatable. he needs to realise where we are in the order of things, and work out a plan & system & a character to deal with that reality
who else would have gone man to man. with Dublin playing against a breeze" What he said prior to getting job, a job few if anyone wanted, was Dublin is the level we need to get to, dont think he meant this or next year, more of a target to aim for over a period years. Agree with you on the man to man, Dublin knew the way we played, so just invited us forward and turned us over at their ease, their fitness and s/c is years ahead of us. They have been playing at the highest level for nearly ten years. To get near them we need to be playing at this level for a few years, so far there is no sign of it happening. Listen to him speak, he is fully aware of where we are at and will endevour to put plan in place so we improve. He has tried a few things out and some are questionable, but he will carry the can and not try to lay blame elsewhere. Under 20s over next few years will hopefully supply new talent and its good to see players allowed develop at this level and not fast tracked to soon. Ok if we discover an outstanding talent exception could be made, otherwise let them have a shot playing at this age level. As things stand we have to believe harsh lessons are being learned by management and players alike.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2135 - 21/03/2023 12:35:36
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Replying To kingofclubs: "I am not sure if there was a problem with McGill's attitude and fitness in last two seasons. His confrontation with COR stemmed from him looking for a break after Leinster club championship. Other than that this post is a fair assessment of where we are at." Thats fair enough, McGill opinions differ big time and maybe we will see him back at a later stage.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2135 - 21/03/2023 12:37:57
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It did take long for the honey moon to end for Colm. Just 6 games but I think everyone on here has pointed out the shortcomings of this team. The reality is they are a junior team trying to play senior football. The experienced lads are just not good enough and the younger lads who came in this year are either very young and raw footballers and need time to develop. O'Neill, Moriarty, Higgins are very young and inexperienced but are very good footballers. If they were coming onto a team with Giles, Dowd and Co they would be great but unfortunately they have no leadership ahead of them.
My problem with Colm is he has not put a proper team around him. Bringing back Boylan is laughable he has nothing to add. Look at the team McStay has surrounded himself with, the best S and C, best trainers coaches,cytology, nutrition and has all the best facilities money can buy. That is why he has slotted in to the job so easily. He also has an abundance of great footballers at hand so is able to blood new lads with ease. We are at a very low level in Meath and it will take at least another decade to get back to the top of the tree.
latouche25 (Meath) - Posts: 520 - 21/03/2023 12:50:43
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Replying To seadog54: "If McGill had been taken to task in last two seasons, his attitude and fitness levels may not have been an issue,instead he was handed the no 3 jersey game after game. Getting aMeath jersey should be a privilage and something that is earned, not just handed out regardless of form. BM has retired, gave Meath his best and in fairness to him did not to be part of another rebuild. Was a big fan of JMac but again in last two years lacked consistant form, however three from family should have alarm bells ringing at CB level. Most if not all, including myself have expressed concern at way we àre setup but do so in the context that management have been in place a short time, also there was no foundations in place in which to build on, it is a total rebuild. COR to his credit has not used this as an excuse, neither does he blame his players or ref for shortfalls." There was never a problem with McGills attitude or fitness up until the alleged problems this year so if there was no issues at all with attitude and fitness why would any management feel the need to take him to task over them. You are talking absolute nonsense .
Form may have been an issue but as we can clearly see now there is literally not one single player in the county who can get anywhere near a mcgill in poor form to replace him at full back so the previous managements hands were tied to an extent.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 869 - 21/03/2023 13:18:08
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Replying To seadog54: "Thats fair enough, McGill opinions differ big time and maybe we will see him back at a later stage." It is not an opinion it is a fact. There was no issues with his attitude or fitness levels in previous years. Zero.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 869 - 21/03/2023 13:19:48
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Replying To Blackspot09: "It is not an opinion it is a fact. There was no issues with his attitude or fitness levels in previous years. Zero." Fair enough, however evidence there for all to see and to keep stating something is a fact does not make it so, just your opinion.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2135 - 21/03/2023 13:52:15
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Replying To latouche25: "It did take long for the honey moon to end for Colm. Just 6 games but I think everyone on here has pointed out the shortcomings of this team. The reality is they are a junior team trying to play senior football. The experienced lads are just not good enough and the younger lads who came in this year are either very young and raw footballers and need time to develop. O'Neill, Moriarty, Higgins are very young and inexperienced but are very good footballers. If they were coming onto a team with Giles, Dowd and Co they would be great but unfortunately they have no leadership ahead of them.
My problem with Colm is he has not put a proper team around him. Bringing back Boylan is laughable he has nothing to add. Look at the team McStay has surrounded himself with, the best S and C, best trainers coaches,cytology, nutrition and has all the best facilities money can buy. That is why he has slotted in to the job so easily. He also has an abundance of great footballers at hand so is able to blood new lads with ease. We are at a very low level in Meath and it will take at least another decade to get back to the top of the tree." Hard to know why SB is involved, might be just a mentor for young lads. As you say Kevin Mac has a great team in place and Mayo are reaping the rewards. Competition for Meath job seemed to attract little interest from outside county, which is both understandable and dissapointing. It seems like CB approached Colm rather than him looking for job. When he announced management team he said more would be added, but Meath are not an attractive option for top class coaches, so for now we have what we have. Mayo and other top teams introduce young lads who in no way seem out of place, yes they are surrounded by experience and leaders, but lack nothing in skill, s/c or fitness, whatever structures they have in place is working
Not nice, but you are right, it is going to take years to get us anywhere near top 5/6 in country.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2135 - 21/03/2023 14:14:50
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Replying To seadog54: "Fair enough, however evidence there for all to see and to keep stating something is a fact does not make it so, just your opinion." And what exactly is this evidence??? Other than O Rourkes opinion (the man who seems to have ha the issue with him wanting the extended break, which he was more than entitled to). The FACTS, are that we have been all over the place at the backs all year, with none of our players winning individual battles in the last 4 games, and McGill lined out for his club against Kells and looked far from unfit.
ratlag (Meath) - Posts: 557 - 21/03/2023 14:42:43
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Replying To seadog54: "Fair enough, however evidence there for all to see and to keep stating something is a fact does not make it so, just your opinion." What evidence ? Where was the evidence of poor attitude and poor fitness on McGills part over the last 5/7 years before this year ? You say it was there for all to see? Up until a few weeks ago I have never heard one person remark on his poor fitness or attitude and while his form was certainly patchy and indifferent the last 2years there nothing to suggest this had anything to do with either of those issues.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 869 - 21/03/2023 14:51:01
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It's not completely fair to put all blame at O Rourke's door, but whether people like it or not, he does have to take, and deservedly so, the brunt of it. Setting up a basic defensive game plan does not take 6 months to implement, a decent coach with intelligent players (which we do have) should be able to do it in half that time. Even if all he did in his first year was work on that, he would manage to keep games tight, and then in a tight game you can rely on a Walsh, Costello, Morris etc to hopefully kick you some winning scores.
In Andys first year (after a so called dismal year with Mick O Dowd) we conceded an average of 13.5 scores per game.
In his last year, where he had apparently long overstayed his time and we were apparently one of the worst Meath teams ever, we conceded an average of 12.5 scores per game.
Yes we weren't the prettiest team to watch but we didn't get cut through like we are this year and concede after 6 games only, an average of 17.6 scores per game.
Whatever about playing an exciting attacking brand of football which Colm is trying to do (and I hope he manages to achieve it) he is quite simply oblivious to how to set up defensively when we don't have the ball, or it seems tactically as well when we play against teams who are simply better than us in the likes of Derry and Dublin so far this year. This is fully the new managers fault and regardless of if he is in 6 months or 6 years he himself should have higher standards set. As all the top teams are showing, it is possible to play super defensive when we lose the ball and break at pace when you win it back. Galway, Kerry, Mayo, Derry, Dublin will all have on average 12 men minimum back in their half when they lose the ball, but are well drilled in where to be, when to engage and how to slow the opposition and set traps. They then break a pace, kick passes into space and hard runners off them.
ratlag (Meath) - Posts: 557 - 21/03/2023 15:01:13
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Replying To Blackspot09: "What evidence ? Where was the evidence of poor attitude and poor fitness on McGills part over the last 5/7 years before this year ? You say it was there for all to see? Up until a few weeks ago I have never heard one person remark on his poor fitness or attitude and while his form was certainly patchy and indifferent the last 2years there nothing to suggest this had anything to do with either of those issues." As I said already if thats you opinion then fair enough. Last manager seemed to think likewise. Current management see him as suŕplus to requirement. Fitness being the issue. Call it what you like, but not a lot between attitude and indifference. Think you nailed it.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2135 - 21/03/2023 15:28:42
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Replying To Blackspot09: "There was never a problem with McGills attitude or fitness up until the alleged problems this year so if there was no issues at all with attitude and fitness why would any management feel the need to take him to task over them. You are talking absolute nonsense .
Form may have been an issue but as we can clearly see now there is literally not one single player in the county who can get anywhere near a mcgill in poor form to replace him at full back so the previous managements hands were tied to an extent." The lies been spouted about McGill is disgusting tbh. A man who gave everything to the county. For him to be slandered by trolling keyboard warriors is beneath contempt at this stage. And all to blame mcentee as Colm walks on water in their eyes. It has comic value but when they try to take the name of the BEST FULLBACK in county it gets too much. Poisoned trolling at its finest. You have the wonder were they the type of people to write letters to previous management and their families. Doesn't seem beneath them looking at the rubbish they wrote here.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 21/03/2023 15:50:56
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Replying To seadog54: "As I said already if thats you opinion then fair enough. Last manager seemed to think likewise. Current management see him as suŕplus to requirement. Fitness being the issue. Call it what you like, but not a lot between attitude and indifference. Think you nailed it." It's not my opinion it is fact. There was no evidence of poor attitude or lack of fitness before this year. It was never mentioned once . I am not saying it wasn't the case this year but you are out of line suggesting it was the case over the last few years when clearly was not.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 869 - 21/03/2023 15:58:32
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Replying To ratlag: "It's not completely fair to put all blame at O Rourke's door, but whether people like it or not, he does have to take, and deservedly so, the brunt of it. Setting up a basic defensive game plan does not take 6 months to implement, a decent coach with intelligent players (which we do have) should be able to do it in half that time. Even if all he did in his first year was work on that, he would manage to keep games tight, and then in a tight game you can rely on a Walsh, Costello, Morris etc to hopefully kick you some winning scores.
In Andys first year (after a so called dismal year with Mick O Dowd) we conceded an average of 13.5 scores per game.
In his last year, where he had apparently long overstayed his time and we were apparently one of the worst Meath teams ever, we conceded an average of 12.5 scores per game.
Yes we weren't the prettiest team to watch but we didn't get cut through like we are this year and concede after 6 games only, an average of 17.6 scores per game.
Whatever about playing an exciting attacking brand of football which Colm is trying to do (and I hope he manages to achieve it) he is quite simply oblivious to how to set up defensively when we don't have the ball, or it seems tactically as well when we play against teams who are simply better than us in the likes of Derry and Dublin so far this year. This is fully the new managers fault and regardless of if he is in 6 months or 6 years he himself should have higher standards set. As all the top teams are showing, it is possible to play super defensive when we lose the ball and break at pace when you win it back. Galway, Kerry, Mayo, Derry, Dublin will all have on average 12 men minimum back in their half when they lose the ball, but are well drilled in where to be, when to engage and how to slow the opposition and set traps. They then break a pace, kick passes into space and hard runners off them." you touched on something there on the 2nd line which i have raised before. Intelligence. I actually think this is where we might be short compared to other teams. At the end of the day a manager/coach can train you all year every night, but at the end of it all there's 15 men which cross the whiteline to play, of which a good few have been at this level for multiple years, but yet fail to adopt any sort of principle/shape/plan. That tells me they are short in a particular department that no training, physical or mental can teach.
Now id imagine, MOD,AD and COR have all explained in detail what they want(ed) to do in defense but its ultimatly up to the players to bring it onto the field. The glaring problem for me looks like they simply cannot understand it(intelligence)/have the ability or even concentration levels to run it.
I also think we lack vocal leaders. When was the last time a player made a mistake and one of our more experienced or better players gave them a ********** on the field. I think thats been coached out at underage but i think this leads to some players just going through the motions and thinking ah well i tried me best and having no accountability. I can remember players in the good days getting into each other and demanding better.
Irish_downunder (Meath) - Posts: 630 - 21/03/2023 16:08:26
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Replying To royaldunne: "Ok. You go ahead with that utter bs. I have a pro Meath view. Andy did his best. And he stayed a year too long. I said that over and over. He should have been got rid of prior to last year. But the cb waited until October or November when it was too late. Colm has come in and so far has been an absolute disaster. To say otherwise is pure lies. We have gotten worse in every aspect of the game. I have seen some bs about how it's an all a master plan to take Leinster by storm on another thread. I mean ffs are people that delusional?
I thought from day one his time had passed, I believe he probably should have been given it after boylan. But for some reason he wasn't. I had feared that his style of management was outdated. Trust me no one wants him to be a success more than me. He has had a baptism of fire and needs help big time. If you think that the last 4 matches couldn't have been managed better then I give up. Andy is gone and will not return I have no axe to grind with Colm. But he hasn't shown ANYTHING to suggest we appointed the right man. He has remainder of this year and all of next to hopefully prove me wrong. (I never wanted to be proved wrong so much). Until then he has my full support, however if the same mistakes happen over and over again then I am sure he will do the right thing for the county and step down. What I am doing is offering him advice (not that he'd read this or anything like it) to bring in a couple of new voices into background. What's wrong with that ?? I'll start him off. Connor Gillespie and Darren Fay. Both club managers who I'm sure would help out county team." I'm trying to figure out if you are being serious? You suggest bringing Darren Fay in? Why??? So many on here saying Colm is living in the past and it was never going to work. What I want to know is, who is coaching and coming up with game plans, tactics, scenarios? O'Rourke is most definitely not the man on the training field - he has never been that. He needs good coaches around him. Similar to McStay. He has Rochford and others. So my only criticism of Colm is not bringing in top class coaches, maybe he tried and nobody wanted to come aboard. Maybe we couldn't afford them? Who knows.
Tinchy1 (Meath) - Posts: 60 - 21/03/2023 16:09:44
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Replying To royaldunne: "What pointing out clear problems in the way we set up and playing? I have not once mentioned things like the whole Shane wouldn't be in team only who is father is that seadog, Brian and nobull went on about ALL THE TIME, and there is things that could be said. I have kept it very much to football and where we are at present. It's not the league standings it's the performances have been so bad. Even the two games we won particularly v clare. We are where we are but we gonna get a lot worse unless we rectify things. I am hoping against hope that Colm can see that too. I want him to be a success. We need him to be one. And by that I don't mean winning Leinster or all Ireland by that I mean been hard to beat, loosing to dubs but at least giving them a game, loosing to Derry but at least making them work for it. Next year we likely have Monaghan and either Donegal or Armagh we also have cavan and one of Fermanagh Down coming up. So we have four Ulster county's to contend with. The two coming up are better than the two going down imo and while we could argue about Donegal and Monaghan level at present we haven't beat either in years. Kildare are sure to kick on and so might cork. So all in all unless we sort out very basic things we are doomed for div 3 after next year. That's my fear going forward." In fairness fundamental issues were still a problem years into the last management reign. We were talking about stuff like goal keeper selection/ kick out strategy and free takers years into that era.
Intercounty management is hard, it's easy to be critical from the outside and it's hard to get everything right at the same time.
Some people on here are overly critical, COR only 6 competitive matches into his reign.
COR is trying to play a more attacking brand of football and he is new to inter county management, it is not that surprising that there is teething issues here.
One thing about O'Rourke is he's a winner, he proved that in his playing career and what he turned St. Pats into in collages football.
There may be some truth that he has not yet adapted to modern intercounty tactics (it's his first intercounty job) but he's an intelligent man, I would back him over time to overcome these.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1337 - 21/03/2023 16:16:43
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