Meath Forum

Clare V Meath. Rd 6

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Replying To AthboyCelt:  "Let them play and develop with the U20's they have a better chance of winning something with them, if McEntee left well enough alone last year we could have went far in that competition."
If McEntee left well enough alone then Bernard Flynn would have continued to be the manager and we wouldn't have went far. If Sean Kelly and Barry Callaghan were in from the start (challenge games were going terribly and then the one championship performance under new management was good) with Costello and Hickey on the team then I agree we could have gone far. But with Flynn at the helm we were not looking like going anywhere

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1464 - 22/03/2022 11:04:26    2406410

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Replying To brian:  "Jack Flynn is surely another name that could be thrown into the mix"
He's on the panel. Got injured during Sigerson training. Not sure if he's come back. Agreed I think he's good and I'm disappointed not to have seen anything from him this league but he's definitely on the panel

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1464 - 22/03/2022 11:05:18    2406411

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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99:  "If McEntee left well enough alone then Bernard Flynn would have continued to be the manager and we wouldn't have went far. If Sean Kelly and Barry Callaghan were in from the start (challenge games were going terribly and then the one championship performance under new management was good) with Costello and Hickey on the team then I agree we could have gone far. But with Flynn at the helm we were not looking like going anywhere"
Challenge, championship,2 diff games altogether.your building regardless of results up to your championship.so if hickey costello had been left alone we would have beaten dublin that evening.your word is your bond.andy let himself down bigtime in my opinion.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 22/03/2022 11:47:37    2406422

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Replying To royaldunne:  "The forwards are not there. Plain and simple. People can blame mcentee until the cows come home but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. We don't have the type of player I mentioned earlier who those small nippy forwards would thrive off. I said previously you could have boylan odywer gavin and mcguinness there and it wouldn't make any difference unfortunately. I ended up yesterday talking to a member of the back room , I asked was there unity he said the teams would lay down their life for each other and the manager, I asked what about next year, he said Andy is seeing out this year and he is not looking to stay on, he then told me that no one in the county wants to take it over as cb, supporters and everyone else have way too high of expectations, he said those been motioned for the job wouldn't touch it. As all it is is hassle. I left our conversation and indeed the match feeling very deflated. We are probably doing as well as we can, and it will continue like that for the short to medium term , until the likes of Emmanuel and last years minors come of age. So who is going to take the job"
Its critical that the Right person gets the Job, and i cant offer up a name . If pushed i would have to say that Minor Manager from last year , should be at least in the debate & mix. And that is not because of his All Ireland Success , but of course that is a very positive indicator of his capabilities ....but we have to get away from a one dimensional view of what it takes to deliver success....That includes the whole concept of "talent", structure, organisation, people,
If talent was the answer...well Kerry have had a bucket of Minor successes .
The other Problem...and i think its a huge Problem...the "right" person, should in my opinion, automatically have a Problem with those who administer our games in the County ....so they have two choices.. Accept the Job on the basis of trying to work around these people.....and believe that success can be delivered despite them...or , not hold their hand up to take on the role, because they don't believe In the People they answer too....unfortunately...i think a lot of possible candidates, fall into the latter category

Thelongwoodslasher (Meath) - Posts: 385 - 22/03/2022 13:03:34    2406450

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Replying To seadog54:  "Unfair to say DL not willing to commit, sat on the bench while management continued with lads who failed to deliver. Nothing will change short term, but have to expect a greater return than 2/3 points from play over last six games from several nailed on starters."
Am I guessing that what you are saying is that we have the best the county has to offer ? Btw I agree. As for dl he did state he didn't want to commit to the extreme task of ic panel. And I for one don't blame him.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/03/2022 13:07:49    2406453

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Replying To Ashrules:  "Rd you seem to have a link with Andy and the management. It was obvious that there were no forward tactics and that there is a big problem with the selection of the team. The game was rescued by forwards coming off the bench, LMFM correctly stated that there was no sign of attacking movement until subs came on. These subs are the ones
Andy does not want to play , are still sticking around for the moment for no obvious reason ,and he uses when his own favourites are in trouble. There are as many effective forwards who are not there because they could not stomach having to look on anymore. Such was the case against Clare who were beating us. Now Clare are a hurling County and you can imagine how much they would beat our hurlers by. A footballing County should have been 15 pts clear.

I don't doubt Andy put a massive effort into team training and preparation but this wont do. Is there any chance he would stand down from the team selection for the championship .All we need is someone who will pick a team on merit. In that scenario the likes of Donal Lenihan and Mikey Newman who are solid Meathmen if not Mcentee cronies might be available."
Thanks. I needed a laugh. Just what we want at mouth of championship. Go look for a manager. What are you smoking??

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/03/2022 13:09:43    2406454

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Challenge, championship,2 diff games altogether.your building regardless of results up to your championship.so if hickey costello had been left alone we would have beaten dublin that evening.your word is your bond.andy let himself down bigtime in my opinion."
Give over, why would any manager release a player who is STARTING on his team?? He released Jack Flynn as he wasn't playing and thats all he should have to do. Flynn looked for an excuse to walk and he did, "your best players play" is a common phrase used here and thats what Andy did.

ratlag (Meath) - Posts: 557 - 22/03/2022 13:42:03    2406471

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Am I guessing that what you are saying is that we have the best the county has to offer ? Btw I agree. As for dl he did state he didn't want to commit to the extreme task of ic panel. And I for one don't blame him."
What I,m saying is these are lads manager has placed his faith in and they have not delivered, however, they retain their place game after game. Is the poor scoring down to the system we play, lack of confidence or are they not intercounty standard, impossible to pin down without been privy to what goes on in training. I dont pretend to know all the forwards in Meath football, thats a management task, but its not good enough to say they are the best we have, if they are,then we are not getting the best out of them. Have a look at Div 2 top scorers, Morris is top for us, about 8 of total from play, second for us is Harry Hogan. No matter what spin we put on it, something is not right.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2151 - 22/03/2022 14:08:12    2406487

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Replying To brian:  "You do make a good point there but then kinda answer it yourself. Cillian plays inside with Morris and Walsh so they do have an experienced head. It makes the decision to ignore Donal Lenihan and go with younger lads more frustrating. The thing about size is that despite having four big guys (Walsh, Costello, Morris and O'Reilly) and Cillian isn't small either is that very few of them can win their own ball and hold it up and bring other guys into play. And look maybe that's why Andy is playing that running game is for that reason. As you say players come in all shapes and sizes, but look at giles as an example, 5'10 at most but could win ball in midfield, hold it up, spread it about and rarely if ever knocked off it (now yes he's maybe an exception) so there's room for the slight lads if they can do it.

I mean, we also had the top scorer in club football in Ireland last year playing in Meath…." Assume this is Aaron Lynch you're talking about or am i misinformed?"
Cillian is more of a make shift inside player if any, he floats out the field and the two younger boys get left inside most of the time to win their own ball. They don't have the experienced inside forward I should have said. Someone mentioned McBrearty, though he was pivotal to Donegal winning the All Ireland he came in alongside Colm McFadden and Murphy. These lads are definitely talented enough to have good inter county careers in the next five years, when the minors from the last two years finally break through to senior hopefully the younger lads like Hickey, Costello, Walsh and Morris will be the core of a team ready to compete. Meath are in a lull at the moment which is hard for supporters to fathom, but a fresh approach from management standpoint and time will hopefully see us back competing in the future
Yes I was referring to AL, who we haven't got a chance to see yet

mr.lucky (Meath) - Posts: 12 - 22/03/2022 14:09:33    2406488

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Replying To ratlag:  "Give over, why would any manager release a player who is STARTING on his team?? He released Jack Flynn as he wasn't playing and thats all he should have to do. Flynn looked for an excuse to walk and he did, "your best players play" is a common phrase used here and thats what Andy did."
You say you release 20s for championship in my book honesty is the way to go.mcentee said this but didnt deliver.his word meant nothing.not a good sign for a manager.full stop.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 22/03/2022 14:19:48    2406492

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We've spoken loads about what happened the 20s last year and we were going nowhere under the Flynn setup.
If Callaghan and Kelly had been in from the start with a full selection then absolutely it was shaping up well. However you cant deny the manager whatever players he wants unless there's a policy of a hands off players until they come out of underage. I hear all the talk of bringing up Eoghan Frayne and Conor Gray etc. In my opinion that's where the problem lies All of the players mentioned are very good but they are still young. Why not leave all players until they are out of underage and allow them room to develop in their own age group. The exception would be a Clifford but we dont have any and one would be fairly obvious. Otherwise you are taking players and moulding them into a 'type' hard running ,lateral passing , ball retaining, handpassing forever etc. etc. based on a coaching handbook designed not to lose but rarely designed to win. This is in most counties imo not just Meath. Galway and Kerry being an exception but even Kerry are getting a bit restrictive.
Rather let them develop their own style or flair among the best of their own age in the country and see how they can add to a teams variety of play rather than go into a set up to be bulked and moulded according to the latest, safest trend.

ABK67 (Meath) - Posts: 62 - 22/03/2022 14:43:39    2406501

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "You say you release 20s for championship in my book honesty is the way to go.mcentee said this but didnt deliver.his word meant nothing.not a good sign for a manager.full stop."
The word he gave was that the two lads would play 20's championship when it was originally fixed which was during national league time (like Jack O'Connor, Morris, Walsh, Costello, Hickey did in 2020). Not that they would play instead of the championship. It also isn't a good sign of a manager to leave a group of under 20's high and dry in an ego fueled strop 2 weeks before their championship having been a disaster in your challenge games up to that point. And then take to twitter to continue to make it all about yourself. But anyway this is past history and has 0 to do with the title of this thread or with Meath football going forward

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1464 - 22/03/2022 16:22:39    2406536

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Replying To ABK67:  "We've spoken loads about what happened the 20s last year and we were going nowhere under the Flynn setup.
If Callaghan and Kelly had been in from the start with a full selection then absolutely it was shaping up well. However you cant deny the manager whatever players he wants unless there's a policy of a hands off players until they come out of underage. I hear all the talk of bringing up Eoghan Frayne and Conor Gray etc. In my opinion that's where the problem lies All of the players mentioned are very good but they are still young. Why not leave all players until they are out of underage and allow them room to develop in their own age group. The exception would be a Clifford but we dont have any and one would be fairly obvious. Otherwise you are taking players and moulding them into a 'type' hard running ,lateral passing , ball retaining, handpassing forever etc. etc. based on a coaching handbook designed not to lose but rarely designed to win. This is in most counties imo not just Meath. Galway and Kerry being an exception but even Kerry are getting a bit restrictive.
Rather let them develop their own style or flair among the best of their own age in the country and see how they can add to a teams variety of play rather than go into a set up to be bulked and moulded according to the latest, safest trend."
You make a good point and it ties in with what Mr Lucky is saying which should be applied to the whole team.

Look at our inside forwards. Walsh and Morris, with mostly Morris on his own. 21 and 22 years of age and both are key players with no experienced old heads with them like a Michael Newman or Donal Lenihan that could talk them through games. (I'm not suggesting either player is brought back more leaning on their experience) In the full back line we'd Muldon, Harkin and Clarke, all raw young and inexperienced and no leader beside them.

If you look at our team in 96 after half a dozen retirements Boylan reshaped the whole team and brought in multiple young lads but surrounded them with wiser and more experienced heads. O'Connell was paired with Fay and O'Reilly, Reynolds had O'Connell behind him and Mc Manus and Coyle with him and Callaghan had Dowd in front of him and Brennie Reilly beside him all seasoned campaigners. That helped integrate those guys and look what happened in 96. They developed and were the main players in 1999 and 2001 when we won Sam and got back to an all ireland.

At present we lack a series of leaders in our team. I would say that McGill, Keogan and Menton are the core leaders with Cillian being the main guy in forwards, but Cillian's a bit of an individualist and isn't really a guy to put an arm round the shoulder and encourage guys. I'm not suggesting he wouldn't be he's more of an individual talent than team player which is seen by his oft times trying to do too much.

Trying to bring in Conor Gray, Eoghan Frayne or others is just adding more inexperience which we need to be avoiding. You'll ultimately end up with a situation of having another Walsh or Morris a couple of years down the line. We need the experienced guys in the team to lead the way and the likes of the 2012 minors need to make the team there own now. They need to be the main voices with the 2017 minors onwards adding and supplementing to that.

As ABK67 says let these fella's develop, let them enjoy the game and not have to learn system and develop their skills. Don't be in such a rush to get them in that we then burn them out in no time and have them disillusioned.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 22/03/2022 16:28:38    2406539

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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99:  "The word he gave was that the two lads would play 20's championship when it was originally fixed which was during national league time (like Jack O'Connor, Morris, Walsh, Costello, Hickey did in 2020). Not that they would play instead of the championship. It also isn't a good sign of a manager to leave a group of under 20's high and dry in an ego fueled strop 2 weeks before their championship having been a disaster in your challenge games up to that point. And then take to twitter to continue to make it all about yourself. But anyway this is past history and has 0 to do with the title of this thread or with Meath football going forward"
LR for once i disagree, i think you're doing Bernard Flynn a huge disservice saying that. The man bleeds green and gold and can be found at Meath matches all over the country. He got involved with the U20's with the promise he'd have access to Flynn, Hickey and Costello plus any other U20's. Yes as you rightly say challenge games weren't going well and when he asked for access to those players he was turned down. They were staying with the seniors, so what was Flynn to do other than walk away. He couldn't plan for the championship or a style of play and game plan for the championship with out having access to his captain (Costello) and Vice Captain (Hickey). And how do you say to lads who've trained and played multiple challenge matches that 2 lads who've been away with seniors would then turn up on match day and just expect to start. Boylan always allowed access to u21's so why would McEntee not do it for his U20 manager. It cuts both ways.

Ultimately i was a mess for all concerned and no one came out look well from it but saying Flynn's ego fueled strop discounts the multiple broken promises he had from his senior manager and county board. It was the latest in a long line of incidents which played out in the public arena and has made the county a laughing stock.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 22/03/2022 16:42:24    2406547

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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99:  "The word he gave was that the two lads would play 20's championship when it was originally fixed which was during national league time (like Jack O'Connor, Morris, Walsh, Costello, Hickey did in 2020). Not that they would play instead of the championship. It also isn't a good sign of a manager to leave a group of under 20's high and dry in an ego fueled strop 2 weeks before their championship having been a disaster in your challenge games up to that point. And then take to twitter to continue to make it all about yourself. But anyway this is past history and has 0 to do with the title of this thread or with Meath football going forward"
Ok park that how can we be so bad a week after cork game.please tell me what system or way of playing we are trying to acheive.because i cant make head nor tail whats goin on.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 22/03/2022 18:33:24    2406575

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Replying To seadog54:  "What I,m saying is these are lads manager has placed his faith in and they have not delivered, however, they retain their place game after game. Is the poor scoring down to the system we play, lack of confidence or are they not intercounty standard, impossible to pin down without been privy to what goes on in training. I dont pretend to know all the forwards in Meath football, thats a management task, but its not good enough to say they are the best we have, if they are,then we are not getting the best out of them. Have a look at Div 2 top scorers, Morris is top for us, about 8 of total from play, second for us is Harry Hogan. No matter what spin we put on it, something is not right."
Who would you replace them with. Less of the straws man talk. Name names. Who you drop off panel for them

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/03/2022 18:41:44    2406576

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Replying To brian:  "LR for once i disagree, i think you're doing Bernard Flynn a huge disservice saying that. The man bleeds green and gold and can be found at Meath matches all over the country. He got involved with the U20's with the promise he'd have access to Flynn, Hickey and Costello plus any other U20's. Yes as you rightly say challenge games weren't going well and when he asked for access to those players he was turned down. They were staying with the seniors, so what was Flynn to do other than walk away. He couldn't plan for the championship or a style of play and game plan for the championship with out having access to his captain (Costello) and Vice Captain (Hickey). And how do you say to lads who've trained and played multiple challenge matches that 2 lads who've been away with seniors would then turn up on match day and just expect to start. Boylan always allowed access to u21's so why would McEntee not do it for his U20 manager. It cuts both ways.

Ultimately i was a mess for all concerned and no one came out look well from it but saying Flynn's ego fueled strop discounts the multiple broken promises he had from his senior manager and county board. It was the latest in a long line of incidents which played out in the public arena and has made the county a laughing stock."
Look I've kept out of this for as long as I can remember. I'll state clearly I know Bernard, he knows me, we live in same town and have many a meet up. I have nothing only admiration for Bernie on both a personal and football level. However and I've said this to him, Bernard should not have went for that position as he was not suited to it. I will not go further into this.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/03/2022 18:47:21    2406577

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Replying To brian:  "LR for once i disagree, i think you're doing Bernard Flynn a huge disservice saying that. The man bleeds green and gold and can be found at Meath matches all over the country. He got involved with the U20's with the promise he'd have access to Flynn, Hickey and Costello plus any other U20's. Yes as you rightly say challenge games weren't going well and when he asked for access to those players he was turned down. They were staying with the seniors, so what was Flynn to do other than walk away. He couldn't plan for the championship or a style of play and game plan for the championship with out having access to his captain (Costello) and Vice Captain (Hickey). And how do you say to lads who've trained and played multiple challenge matches that 2 lads who've been away with seniors would then turn up on match day and just expect to start. Boylan always allowed access to u21's so why would McEntee not do it for his U20 manager. It cuts both ways.

Ultimately i was a mess for all concerned and no one came out look well from it but saying Flynn's ego fueled strop discounts the multiple broken promises he had from his senior manager and county board. It was the latest in a long line of incidents which played out in the public arena and has made the county a laughing stock."
The handling of the situation was a mess and the biggest thing for me was why it was allowed to get to so near the championship, if Flynn wouldn't manage without the county players then why didn't he leave months earlier. I highly highly doubt he was told he'd have the players and then 2 weeks before was told differently. So something about it seems fishy to me. And you say Boylan allowed access to under 21's but there wasn't a rule that said you couldn't play both back then. If in 1996 Giles, Fay, Mark O'Reilly, Paddy Reynolds and Barry Callaghan couldn't play senior if they played 21's I wonder what would have happened. Also I'm not denying what a great Meath legend Bernard Flynn is and I think the more we can do to engage the legends in some way with the current players the better and I'm also in agreement that I think 20's should be left to play 20's (unless you're an all Ireland contender and the player is a guaranteed senior starter maybe) but I don't think that 20's team with or without those players were going to achieve much because I don't believe in Flynn as a a manager and I hated how he left a panel of young lads many of whom will never play for Meath again high and dry right before championship and then continued to publicise it and beg for sympathy. It didn't reflect well on anybody. Didn't reflect well on the senior management or the 20's management and definitely didn't reflect well on the county board who a) couldn't sort it and b) remained silent on it. But anyway like I said it's in the past and let's move on with this year and how to improve for future years

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1464 - 22/03/2022 19:36:48    2406583

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Thanks. I needed a laugh. Just what we want at mouth of championship. Go look for a manager. What are you smoking??"
No, I was not talking about changing manager. The way the team is picked now is not acceptable at inter county level. He would still pick his own son if he could even though the lad clearly was burning out and in need of a break (not good player welfare or fair to other players).
My question is could the team selection be done by someone more objective. Only criticism of this manager is cronyism. Otherwise He is clearly a very good person.

Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 22/03/2022 20:10:14    2406591

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Ok park that how can we be so bad a week after cork game.please tell me what system or way of playing we are trying to acheive.because i cant make head nor tail whats goin on."
This is a far better and more relevant argument. I can't comment fully because unfortunately due to Covid I couldn't attend the game and had to settle for the radio. I would imagine Clare were far more organised defensively that Cork work for one. And it was mentioned post game that the semi drive and intensity and directness weren't there. Not fully sure why the Cork performance was so much better than the rest of the league performances. I certainly don't think our game plan is to play slow and lateral but our performances have been like that and that is extremely frustrating. This week is a good litmus test against a better team so hopefully we can rise to it

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1464 - 23/03/2022 09:50:21    2406607

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