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Replying To brian: "Royal Steel good post and some great point in it but I'd disagree with some of your points. I think plenty of people suggested maybe throwing in a few lads and giving them an opportunity, rest senior players and give things a go. I think with respect Andy tried doing that with the starting team he named on Saturday morning naming players in places with a couple of experienced guys around them but then totally changed things prior to kick off. Had those 15 lads even played together in training never mind the intensity of league match. Mayo sprinkled some new guys with experience and their better players played to the standards Mayo have set for themselves over the past number of years. A consistent top 4 standard.
You ask what makes Mayo a top team, well multiple connacht titles, all ireland semi finals and finals appearances and given Dublin their best matches over the last 6 years. Mayo have been closer than anyone to beating Dublin. They got to an all ireland final last year with a team in transition. Multiple players in their first and second year playing key roles in getting them there in Oisin Mullen, Matthew Ruane, James Carr and Tommy Conroy. This Meath team would be immeasurably better having those four in it.
Your contention that we'd challenge for provincial titles in any other province is just not true. When have we last beat a Kerry, Mayo or Donegal/Tyrone. Its that long ago I honestly can't remember. We might make a final (which we do in Leinster) but we'd not beat those teams ahead of us. 2009 v Mayo in an all ireland quarter final is my last recall on beating a top side. Nothing since then...
I do agree with you in that this is where we wanted to be after 3 games. In a playoff to get back to division one. Lets wait until there's an outcome of that before we decide on anything. I said if they lose Andy is in trouble and its hard to make a case for him being retained. Bernard Flynn if he is Andy's successor will have had a year at U20, John Mccarthy would get 2/3 years at U20 and we'd have them working with incoming players and know what they can or can't do, and if they'd be suitable for senior football. It would also allow them time to bring a system and style of team from Minor through U20 to senior by the time John McCarthy would be taking over or getting involved with the senior team.
No one is suggesting chopping and changing but lets not forget 2 of the 3 managers after Sean got us to All Ireland Semi finals and a Leinster title.
In all honesty I'd raise the question are Meath any closer to being a top team than they were when Mick O'Dowd took over. I don't think they are. Andy deserves huge credit for dragging this team back from the brink but he's not without his failings. In his 5 years can we say we're closer to the top teams I would argue we're not. And 5 years is enough time to give someone to get things to where we'd hope they would be. The same old failings and Andy's stubornness to not address them will also be a fact that will not be in his favour." I hear ya Brian and I do share frustration but we tend to have short memories and whilst other managers may have gotten us further in 2007 and 2009 we were well beaten in those semi finals with the worst being a trimming by a Cork team hammered in the final. Closer to Kerry in 09 but alas they were always in control. Over those years we remained a division 2 side where the gap to the top teams (of which Dublin weren't one) we were never close to an AI and haven't been since 2001 (less said about that final the better).
The fascination with Mayo always intrigues me with the exception of 2013 and 2016 I don't believe they really troubled Dublin in a final, the gap in 5 years for them has widened exponentially for them too.
What I like about this Meath team is that regardless of how the match is going they compete to the final whistle and we are as physically fit as most teams, doesn't seem like much but other managers couldn't do it and 2015 against Westmeath we lost as we were dead on our feet after 50 minutes.
We need a bit more luck to help us along and we can't underestimate what a loss Jones is at midfield. Not only would it help at kickouts and our attacking options but it would free up Harnan for the half back or forward line which strengthens us there too.
My point about the provisional honours is that with a bit of luck similar to Tipp and Cavan last year you could beat another team on your day but the juggernaut that the GAA have created with Dublin leaves us in a position with little hope.
Has to be disheartening to Andy and the lads to know this but yet they have consistently been the 2nd best in Leinster now and at least not just given up like others to avoid the embarrassment of losing a final.
We all want the best for our County and I see more heart and courage in this team than I have in a long time. I'm not naive and know we're off the pace and have failings but I really don't believe a Jim Gavin type candidate is available to replace our manager nor would a budget be given to do what they need to. We have to continue to make incremental small steps and hope more talent comes through with a budget to help them reach full potential.
RoyalSteel (Meath) - Posts: 18 - 02/06/2021 13:31:38
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Replying To RoyalSteel: "I hear ya Brian and I do share frustration but we tend to have short memories and whilst other managers may have gotten us further in 2007 and 2009 we were well beaten in those semi finals with the worst being a trimming by a Cork team hammered in the final. Closer to Kerry in 09 but alas they were always in control. Over those years we remained a division 2 side where the gap to the top teams (of which Dublin weren't one) we were never close to an AI and haven't been since 2001 (less said about that final the better).
The fascination with Mayo always intrigues me with the exception of 2013 and 2016 I don't believe they really troubled Dublin in a final, the gap in 5 years for them has widened exponentially for them too.
What I like about this Meath team is that regardless of how the match is going they compete to the final whistle and we are as physically fit as most teams, doesn't seem like much but other managers couldn't do it and 2015 against Westmeath we lost as we were dead on our feet after 50 minutes.
We need a bit more luck to help us along and we can't underestimate what a loss Jones is at midfield. Not only would it help at kickouts and our attacking options but it would free up Harnan for the half back or forward line which strengthens us there too.
My point about the provisional honours is that with a bit of luck similar to Tipp and Cavan last year you could beat another team on your day but the juggernaut that the GAA have created with Dublin leaves us in a position with little hope.
Has to be disheartening to Andy and the lads to know this but yet they have consistently been the 2nd best in Leinster now and at least not just given up like others to avoid the embarrassment of losing a final.
We all want the best for our County and I see more heart and courage in this team than I have in a long time. I'm not naive and know we're off the pace and have failings but I really don't believe a Jim Gavin type candidate is available to replace our manager nor would a budget be given to do what they need to. We have to continue to make incremental small steps and hope more talent comes through with a budget to help them reach full potential." I would only add one thing ....to a more levelled & really good debate....that we need a Pat Gilroy first before a Gavin
Ironically...I think Gavin woudln't have last the beatings Dublin took in 2010 (and 2009)
Pat knew the Problem that he was presented with...advised Costelloe & the Top tier in the county board of what he needed to do to repair the problem...right down to personnel and had their backing to do that
where I would have tremendous sympathy with Andy is , that at Most he probably only has the backing (and understanding ) of Kavanagh ….after that...my worry would be the rest are waiting on results to go at him....and that means , if he fails against Kildare & fails in Leinster ..he is on the list for the chop
Btw ...I would argue that an it would be equally important as to whether its McCarthy or Flynn...that two other things need to be done....Fisrt is an in depth discussion with Andy & His Backroom Team of his experiences & a dossier complied of his experiences of his players...and two...one or more of current set up...move into the next one
Thelongwoodslasher (Meath) - Posts: 385 - 02/06/2021 13:56:00
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Fair play RoyalSteel, i was picking up on most of what you said in the later post and agree, yes a bit of luck and being in another province, maybe just maybe you have a Cavan or Tipp scenario last year, two teams i would consider us as currently being better than.
TBF to Andy he's not had a lot of luck over the 5 years, players lost to AFL (McBride and Nash), players lost for season(s) to injury - Newman, Jones, Gallagher and James McEntee, Kane, Harnan and I'm sure there's others, players lost to travel - O'Coilean, Jones, Toner etc and as you say the Dublin juggernaut.
My main concern is that we're no closer to the top 6 counties under Andy than we were when he started and in reality the bridge to them is probably a bit further away. Yes we're fitter, stronger, faster and beating those teams we should be but we're losing ground to those top teams ahead of us (who it looks like have gotten even better) rather than gaining.
Defeat to Kildare would be very disappointing and we should at least be considering where and how much further Andy can improve things. Win that match and lose a leinster quarter or semi final (to someone not named Dublin) and you'd still be in the same scenario. I honestly want to see Andy succeed, you can see the passion and drive within him to do so. I don't profess to knowing who would be the person to bridge that gap or how they could do it. Maybe a change in the backroom after the season and bringing in someone who'll help raise Andy's standard's i.e. a Stephen Rochford or a JIm McGuinness (if he's managing Dundalk in the soccerball) would help him bridge the gap.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 02/06/2021 14:25:05
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Replying To Thelongwoodslasher: "I would only add one thing ....to a more levelled & really good debate....that we need a Pat Gilroy first before a Gavin
Ironically...I think Gavin woudln't have last the beatings Dublin took in 2010 (and 2009)
Pat knew the Problem that he was presented with...advised Costelloe & the Top tier in the county board of what he needed to do to repair the problem...right down to personnel and had their backing to do that
where I would have tremendous sympathy with Andy is , that at Most he probably only has the backing (and understanding ) of Kavanagh ….after that...my worry would be the rest are waiting on results to go at him....and that means , if he fails against Kildare & fails in Leinster ..he is on the list for the chop
Btw ...I would argue that an it would be equally important as to whether its McCarthy or Flynn...that two other things need to be done....Fisrt is an in depth discussion with Andy & His Backroom Team of his experiences & a dossier complied of his experiences of his players...and two...one or more of current set up...move into the next one" Good point there on Gilroy. He was more of a CEO type with oversight of what needed to be done (which i believe is very similar to his actual day job) and Gavin was coming in behind him with knowledge of the underage players who would be coming through to replace what was an aging team in parts for Dublin, same for Farrell after Gavin departed.
Andy seems to be laying a lot of that ground work which his successor(s) will more than likely reap the reward of in 5/6 years time (and hopefully sooner).
Unfortunately i think you've hit the nail on the head about what needs to be done if Andy does depart but you'd fear for things with our county board on whether they have the appetite to do these deep dives which other counties seem to do as a standard procedure.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 02/06/2021 14:41:38
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Replying To Thelongwoodslasher: "I would only add one thing ....to a more levelled & really good debate....that we need a Pat Gilroy first before a Gavin
Ironically...I think Gavin woudln't have last the beatings Dublin took in 2010 (and 2009)
Pat knew the Problem that he was presented with...advised Costelloe & the Top tier in the county board of what he needed to do to repair the problem...right down to personnel and had their backing to do that
where I would have tremendous sympathy with Andy is , that at Most he probably only has the backing (and understanding ) of Kavanagh ….after that...my worry would be the rest are waiting on results to go at him....and that means , if he fails against Kildare & fails in Leinster ..he is on the list for the chop
Btw ...I would argue that an it would be equally important as to whether its McCarthy or Flynn...that two other things need to be done....Fisrt is an in depth discussion with Andy & His Backroom Team of his experiences & a dossier complied of his experiences of his players...and two...one or more of current set up...move into the next one" Good point there on Gilroy. He was more of a CEO type with oversight of what needed to be done (which i believe is very similar to his actual day job) and Gavin was coming in behind him with knowledge of the underage players who would be coming through to replace what was an aging team in parts for Dublin, same for Farrell after Gavin departed.
Andy seems to be laying a lot of that ground work which his successor(s) will more than likely reap the reward of in 5/6 years time (and hopefully sooner).
Unfortunately i think you've hit the nail on the head about what needs to be done if Andy does depart but you'd fear for things with our county board on whether they have the appetite to do these deep dives which other counties seem to do as a standard procedure.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 02/06/2021 15:24:48
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On the top 6 point we have to beat those at our level and below first and I think we're there now. The 2019 league was the 1st time since the 90s where I felt confident in the result before and during matches.
I would say that since then we have become a top division 2 side and just shy of division 1 standard but before this we were top division 3, lower division 2 on our best day.
Good point on the backroom addition, we got a great lift when Nally joined the set up and that's what the best guys do, they surround themselves with people that add value. Who's to say that couldn't work again and bring us on further.
If you look at all the teams ahead of us their backroom teams are almost as big as their playing panels, experts covering all aspects of the game. They need every resource our county board can afford them to keep us on the up and up.
Hopefully we are all celebrating a return to division 1 on Sunday week, Hon the Royal!
RoyalSteel (Meath) - Posts: 18 - 02/06/2021 15:38:30
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In reality and the facts of the matter 3 years there were poor.we were same team as from last management as far as i could see.loss to longford etc.not until the fitness coach and football coach was addressed did we make progress.not to many managers this day and age get that.i to was thinking this lad could make us competitive and bring a old school mentality to the set up.especially with gerry on board.it looked amateurish to be honest.dont think its much to ask steady keeper with a good understudy.a reliable free taker with a half decent back up.and a strong panel with tactics that our strengths are to the fore in them.
Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 02/06/2021 15:44:05
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Replying To Thelongwoodslasher: "I would only add one thing ....to a more levelled & really good debate....that we need a Pat Gilroy first before a Gavin
Ironically...I think Gavin woudln't have last the beatings Dublin took in 2010 (and 2009)
Pat knew the Problem that he was presented with...advised Costelloe & the Top tier in the county board of what he needed to do to repair the problem...right down to personnel and had their backing to do that
where I would have tremendous sympathy with Andy is , that at Most he probably only has the backing (and understanding ) of Kavanagh ….after that...my worry would be the rest are waiting on results to go at him....and that means , if he fails against Kildare & fails in Leinster ..he is on the list for the chop
Btw ...I would argue that an it would be equally important as to whether its McCarthy or Flynn...that two other things need to be done....Fisrt is an in depth discussion with Andy & His Backroom Team of his experiences & a dossier complied of his experiences of his players...and two...one or more of current set up...move into the next one" Agree with this. There is a succession plan in place , I don't know if it will work out. But flynn geraghty and Reilly are earmarked for the job in 2 years. So it's important that we not parachute them in too quickly either
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 02/06/2021 16:40:26
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You boys are blowing up Flynn and see him taking over from McEntee. D'ont get me wrong. Bernard was an absolute brilliant player but ask Mullingar Shamrocks people about him. I think they will say great player but not a great manager.
Marooning (Westmeath) - Posts: 24 - 02/06/2021 17:14:07
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Replying To Borderroyal: "In reality and the facts of the matter 3 years there were poor.we were same team as from last management as far as i could see.loss to longford etc.not until the fitness coach and football coach was addressed did we make progress.not to many managers this day and age get that.i to was thinking this lad could make us competitive and bring a old school mentality to the set up.especially with gerry on board.it looked amateurish to be honest.dont think its much to ask steady keeper with a good understudy.a reliable free taker with a half decent back up.and a strong panel with tactics that our strengths are to the fore in them." I agree with the fact that in 2017 and 2018 we were a bad team, but is it not a testament to Andy that he stepped back and brought in Colm Nally and Neil Ronan. Most inter-county managers now delegate the majority of tasks. I don't see this as a negative. I just don't understand why people on here think we should be beating top 6 teams. We've been in 1 Leinster 21's/20's final since 2001, prior to 2017 under 17's we had 1 good minor team in a decade, there was only one good Pats team in the hogan cup in that time, we've very few lads making an impact on Sigerson. Our senior club championship isn't good at the provincial level. Who's the manager that's out there that is achieving better results than Andy is at the minute, the plan is there for Bernard Flynn and then John McCarthy to both improve our under 20's and improve those guys as managers. It's a good plan now let it happen.
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1462 - 02/06/2021 17:20:00
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Replying To Marooning: "You boys are blowing up Flynn and see him taking over from McEntee. D'ont get me wrong. Bernard was an absolute brilliant player but ask Mullingar Shamrocks people about him. I think they will say great player but not a great manager." I agree with this also. He needs to show something with the under 20's team too, it's not an automatic appointment by any means. McEntee's resume prior to getting the Meath job is a hell of a lot better than Bernard Flynn's is right now. He needs to do something with the 20's to boost his stock
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1462 - 02/06/2021 17:26:22
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Replying To Marooning: "You boys are blowing up Flynn and see him taking over from McEntee. D'ont get me wrong. Bernard was an absolute brilliant player but ask Mullingar Shamrocks people about him. I think they will say great player but not a great manager." Hopefully BF has success with our u20s,not aware of any plan for him to move up to seniors. Will see how he gets on and then maybe consider that option.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2149 - 02/06/2021 17:37:04
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Replying To Borderroyal: "In reality and the facts of the matter 3 years there were poor.we were same team as from last management as far as i could see.loss to longford etc.not until the fitness coach and football coach was addressed did we make progress.not to many managers this day and age get that.i to was thinking this lad could make us competitive and bring a old school mentality to the set up.especially with gerry on board.it looked amateurish to be honest.dont think its much to ask steady keeper with a good understudy.a reliable free taker with a half decent back up.and a strong panel with tactics that our strengths are to the fore in them." Agree with much of what say, fitness has improved, however I cannot see what our coach has brought on board, in what area have we improved? he talks a good game, but whatever is going on on training pitch is not transferring to match day. As you say its not too much to ask to have these basics in place, especially after so long.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2149 - 02/06/2021 17:51:24
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Replying To seadog54: "Agree with much of what say, fitness has improved, however I cannot see what our coach has brought on board, in what area have we improved? he talks a good game, but whatever is going on on training pitch is not transferring to match day. As you say its not too much to ask to have these basics in place, especially after so long." Lose to Kildare and we are in big big trouble for the development of this team. There is worrying signs in terms of squad selection and choices made by management. There is very little variety or development in how we play over the last three years. Just give the ball to Keoghan, Menton, O'Sullivan or maybe Harnan and hope they run it 60 or 70 yards to create something. Kickout strategy non existent and probably don't have a keeper with required technique that meets intercounty standard. Freetaking a problem but worryingly even with the personal being picked, there is no improvement in individuals freetaking. These are all very serious and long term problems which without rectification will mean we will be stuck exactly where we are or possibly worse.
winatallcost (Meath) - Posts: 511 - 02/06/2021 21:45:02
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Replying To royaldunne: "Agree with this. There is a succession plan in place , I don't know if it will work out. But flynn geraghty and Reilly are earmarked for the job in 2 years. So it's important that we not parachute them in too quickly either" Not sure this will be the case until they prove they are an excellent management team. Unfortunately the present Meath team are stagnant now under Andy. We have a full back that is a massive problem. Time for Keoghan to go back to the full back line. Goalkeeping still an issue but slightly better than last year. No designated free taker. Junior D teams have this. Andy has his strengths but unfortunately at inter County his weaknesses are magnified and there for all to see. One plus is the form of the Wallace brothers but will he use them? There is a reluctance to use Joey, who for me along with Morris are two definite starters in the full forward line.
Greensheen (Meath) - Posts: 51 - 02/06/2021 23:48:08
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We've got to start mickey Newman after the weekend. Any news on why fionn Reilly wasn't playing.
rubia (Meath) - Posts: 26 - 03/06/2021 00:46:08
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Replying To seadog54: "Agree with much of what say, fitness has improved, however I cannot see what our coach has brought on board, in what area have we improved? he talks a good game, but whatever is going on on training pitch is not transferring to match day. As you say its not too much to ask to have these basics in place, especially after so long." Your coach pretty much does what manager asks of him so prob both have input to this scenario.coach works with panel selected but he high profile likes to share his ideas so hes out there for ridicule.id personally say hes mad to do dubs some day.talks enuf about them anyway.
Lots of off the shoulder intricate passing.defensively we not fully at it i think mcgill lavin to get exposed at times mskes them look poor sometimes.
Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 03/06/2021 07:10:56
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Checking in after being away for a few days. A lot of good posts. A lot of soul searching I'm seeing lads, understandable. I've been doing a bit of this myself the past few days. In the spirit of being constructive and optimistic ill try and sum up my thoughts as things stand:
- Firstly I'm not here to bash previous players or management. I have no vested interests whatsoever in the current regime. I honestly think when weighed up that Andy and his staff have done a very good job. There are glaring issues, dont get me wrong and we've discussed them to death, but when he took on the job and even in his first year or two, we were teetering on the brink of obscurity. Staring into the abyss. We were becoming a very average side and we were in a slow decline. We were unfit, unmotivated, and unprecedented in who we were losing to, and by how much. We werent within an asses roar of getting to division 1 football. Now we are one game away from being there twice in three years. We've been to concurrent Leinster finals. We've been to the Super 8's (All Ireland Qtr), and we've reasserted ourselves over teans who had eclipsed us. We have a young, very physically able, and well drilled squad of players. They are also natural footballers. True they arent world beaters and they struggle finding a happy medium against the big guns, but that doesent make them a bad side. We have made strides in our squad conditioning and depth.
- to add a realistic spice to my main thoughts, I think its high time we become more pragmatic. This game v. Kildare is our All Ireland final (in my view). Look im happy we have Division 2 for another year, considering some of the teams in division 3 are teams we'd have big issues with. Im all for being a proud supporter, as I always will be, but maybe its time to accept that we are where we are and we have found our level, at least with this generation of players. Perhaps using that logic (that Andy had taken the team to this level), its as good a statistic to the argument of both keeping him or letting him go... I would be very cautious about the latter lads, although we've made progress in his time there is an absolute fragility to it also, electing the wrong management could literally be like riding the high road straight back to 2017. Meath have improved largely through structure, workrate, conditioning, and good old fashioned hard grit. If all of that slides even 5-10% we go back to where we were on the margins of division 3 winning maybe 3/4 games a year. Its that simple. The issue of management has to be taken very, very seriously going forward. We're not out of the woods by any stretch.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 589 - 03/06/2021 07:23:27
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This is a very high quality discussion I have to say. One of best I've seen on the forum. Some very good points made, coming from different viewpoints.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1319 - 03/06/2021 10:04:52
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Replying To Young_gael: "Checking in after being away for a few days. A lot of good posts. A lot of soul searching I'm seeing lads, understandable. I've been doing a bit of this myself the past few days. In the spirit of being constructive and optimistic ill try and sum up my thoughts as things stand:
- Firstly I'm not here to bash previous players or management. I have no vested interests whatsoever in the current regime. I honestly think when weighed up that Andy and his staff have done a very good job. There are glaring issues, dont get me wrong and we've discussed them to death, but when he took on the job and even in his first year or two, we were teetering on the brink of obscurity. Staring into the abyss. We were becoming a very average side and we were in a slow decline. We were unfit, unmotivated, and unprecedented in who we were losing to, and by how much. We werent within an asses roar of getting to division 1 football. Now we are one game away from being there twice in three years. We've been to concurrent Leinster finals. We've been to the Super 8's (All Ireland Qtr), and we've reasserted ourselves over teans who had eclipsed us. We have a young, very physically able, and well drilled squad of players. They are also natural footballers. True they arent world beaters and they struggle finding a happy medium against the big guns, but that doesent make them a bad side. We have made strides in our squad conditioning and depth.
- to add a realistic spice to my main thoughts, I think its high time we become more pragmatic. This game v. Kildare is our All Ireland final (in my view). Look im happy we have Division 2 for another year, considering some of the teams in division 3 are teams we'd have big issues with. Im all for being a proud supporter, as I always will be, but maybe its time to accept that we are where we are and we have found our level, at least with this generation of players. Perhaps using that logic (that Andy had taken the team to this level), its as good a statistic to the argument of both keeping him or letting him go... I would be very cautious about the latter lads, although we've made progress in his time there is an absolute fragility to it also, electing the wrong management could literally be like riding the high road straight back to 2017. Meath have improved largely through structure, workrate, conditioning, and good old fashioned hard grit. If all of that slides even 5-10% we go back to where we were on the margins of division 3 winning maybe 3/4 games a year. Its that simple. The issue of management has to be taken very, very seriously going forward. We're not out of the woods by any stretch." Love it Aris....
PS...I will add what I said last week. about Andy & Co Report card after either each Game or after a Competition
Without a doubt , The Averages dropped significantly last week, in how the Team lined out last week.
Andy has a job to do this week with three quarters of the panel...to convince them that he knew what he was doing in making the choices he made . The messages that will have been received by a good chunk of the panel on Sunday , will be at best confusing and damaging....As the dust settles this week If Andy & Co recognise that, then they can pull a positive message out of the Game, the performance, the substitution etc...and to me that was THE KEY agenda that the Management Team had to grasp this week.
There is no doubt he got the Balance wrong..he needs to won that with his Squad ...and then push on
If he does that...it shows a learning process that Andy would not have shown in the past , and it would be another string to his bow
If he doesn't...and if the message is left that "below our first 15...we are really struggling" ...well atht will for sure come back to haunt him over the course of the Summer.
Thelongwoodslasher (Meath) - Posts: 385 - 03/06/2021 10:31:11
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