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Having looked at our performances in division 1 of the league and seeing how counties such as Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Donegal are so far ahead of us we really need to get a consistent approach to developing football in the county.
I think that we need to identify and appoint someone that can take an overseeing look at football in the county - they should take an oversight of all county teams and try and get a consistent style of play and try and pre empt any possible attrition of players.
They should also be of a sufficient level and status that they could give guidance to each team at each level.
I am thinking of someone like Colm O'Rourke and appoint on a four or five year basis. Hopefully we should be able to get a sponsor to pay for it.
We really need to do something because we have really become also rans since Boylan's times - I think that there has to be more potential out there and a consistent approach all the way up and doing the right thing for the top players and each age level should start to bear fruit.
oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 09/02/2020 23:11:26
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Issue with DoF and style of play is that what if he implements a style of play that is outdated in 3/4 years time? What if he picks only his cronies for the coaching jobs or players from certain clubs? Its a lot of trust to put in one person.
I think whats most important is that we develop as well rounded players as possible. Coaching coaches is therefore vital - do all the coaches of underage club teams in Meath have coaching badges? Obviously not so Dunganny should be full once or twice a month with coaching seminars. We don't have the money to pay for coaches like Dublin, so lets educate as much as possible the men and women who give up their time so admirably with custom made courses.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1352 - 10/02/2020 09:29:57
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Eh you do know that's what Seamus Kenny is charged with doing
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 10/02/2020 10:08:12
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Replying To brian: "Eh you do know that's what Seamus Kenny is charged with doing" Brian,
As far as I know his role if much broader than that.
I am thinking of a very specific (and selfish in a way) remit of county football teams from under 14 to senior. He could have 3 or 4 very good coaches working with him and in and out of the schools and building up contacts with the players, parents and teachers. If there is a new David Clifford or Trevor Giles out there we need to pull out the stops to identify him and get him committed to the cause ahead of rugby or aussie rules or just a general loss in interest.
My hope in this is really to start uncovering and holding on to the gems. We have pitifully failed to get anyone like that in recent years. Conor Nash might have been the closest player but we lost him to Aussie rules. I suspect that there were possibly more players out there - considering our population - its just that we havent been able to identify / develop them. Our only player in recent teams that would be at the level of the top players from 1988 - 1999 is probably Donal Keoghan. At the game yesterday I really felt for him - he did everything in his power to pull us over the line but poor shooting and a defensive error let them down.
I am sure that Seamus Kenny role could be integrated into this. I just think that we need to be really selfish and single minded if we want to get to the stage of competing for All-Irelands again - if we dont an odd scrap of a Leinster championship is all we will get.
oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 10/02/2020 10:39:51
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I get what you mean sir but unfortunately people will still leave at 18/19 years of age. Even if Conor Nash had stayed in Ireland he would've gone to the Leinster Academy with Rugby. The lure of professional sports can't outweigh GAA. Cian McBride is another loss but whilst i agree with your sentiment, the aussies are identifying these lads at 13-15 and bringing them over getting them a taste and the battle can be lost. I believe Nash and his family were out multiple times before he committed and the family seeing everything was as important as anything.
Also kudos to you, Keoghan is the only player outside of bray in the last 10-15 years worthy of the great teams from 86 - 2001. He dragged the team back into it yesterday. And here's the funny thing, he never played underage..
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 10/02/2020 12:55:57
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Replying To oldsam_newsam: "Brian,
As far as I know his role if much broader than that.
I am thinking of a very specific (and selfish in a way) remit of county football teams from under 14 to senior. He could have 3 or 4 very good coaches working with him and in and out of the schools and building up contacts with the players, parents and teachers. If there is a new David Clifford or Trevor Giles out there we need to pull out the stops to identify him and get him committed to the cause ahead of rugby or aussie rules or just a general loss in interest.
My hope in this is really to start uncovering and holding on to the gems. We have pitifully failed to get anyone like that in recent years. Conor Nash might have been the closest player but we lost him to Aussie rules. I suspect that there were possibly more players out there - considering our population - its just that we havent been able to identify / develop them. Our only player in recent teams that would be at the level of the top players from 1988 - 1999 is probably Donal Keoghan. At the game yesterday I really felt for him - he did everything in his power to pull us over the line but poor shooting and a defensive error let them down.
I am sure that Seamus Kenny role could be integrated into this. I just think that we need to be really selfish and single minded if we want to get to the stage of competing for All-Irelands again - if we dont an odd scrap of a Leinster championship is all we will get." When you say "get him committed to the cause ahead of rugby or aussie rules" what exactly do you mean?
Ensure he's read bedtime stories of Peter Darby, Mick Lyons and Ollie Murphy? Bar him from playing or looking at other sports? Tell him he should turn down a dream job in Rugby or Aussie rules if it ever arises, because he owes his life to Meath GAA for free?
Send him to "True Gael" re-education camps to train, study the book of kells, watch videos of the Mayo fight in 96, and go for weekly runs up the Hill of Tara?
Some lads need to realise that the GAA isn't the centre of the universe.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1664 - 10/02/2020 14:26:57
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Replying To brian: "I get what you mean sir but unfortunately people will still leave at 18/19 years of age. Even if Conor Nash had stayed in Ireland he would've gone to the Leinster Academy with Rugby. The lure of professional sports can't outweigh GAA. Cian McBride is another loss but whilst i agree with your sentiment, the aussies are identifying these lads at 13-15 and bringing them over getting them a taste and the battle can be lost. I believe Nash and his family were out multiple times before he committed and the family seeing everything was as important as anything.
Also kudos to you, Keoghan is the only player outside of bray in the last 10-15 years worthy of the great teams from 86 - 2001. He dragged the team back into it yesterday. And here's the funny thing, he never played underage.." Regarding the Keoghan thing, I find it extraordinary that he never played underage and is still one of our greats.
But what does it tell us? To me it tells us that you often cannot tell if a player will be a good adult player by how dominant they are at underage. And I use the word dominant as opposed to good. I've seen so many players who didn't even make underage club teams come on and then have very good careers at senior club level. The reason for this is that even though they probably didn't enjoy being left off underage teams for the bigger more effective lads, they loved and respected the sport and stuck at it.
I'd love if we had academy system at county level where we identified players and assessed them not on how they would win us an u15 or u16 match against Kildare or Dublin that weekend or even a minor match, but on their attitudes to the game, their ability to kick off both feet and pass off both hands, how they respect their coaches and the officials, how hard they train, how much they want to become good footballers at adult level, whether for county or not, even their attitudes to their schoolwork - this is the approach used in the US for sport and they've years more experience at attracting the kind of talent that succeeds at adult level.
However, it takes people involved who who have courage and conviction and who can truly identify talent at underage level - not just pick the obvious more developed lads, regardless of application, intelligence or potential, just so you can win a few matches up in Millbrook with your 15 midfielders. There's a reason why in the Netherlands they don't count the score in underage soccer matches until u16 - its because it doesn't make sense to do so - everyone is developing at different stages and if you start making it all about results, you will lose the majority of players who don't develop until much later, like your Donal Keoghans.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1352 - 10/02/2020 14:29:30
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Replying To brian: "I get what you mean sir but unfortunately people will still leave at 18/19 years of age. Even if Conor Nash had stayed in Ireland he would've gone to the Leinster Academy with Rugby. The lure of professional sports can't outweigh GAA. Cian McBride is another loss but whilst i agree with your sentiment, the aussies are identifying these lads at 13-15 and bringing them over getting them a taste and the battle can be lost. I believe Nash and his family were out multiple times before he committed and the family seeing everything was as important as anything.
Also kudos to you, Keoghan is the only player outside of bray in the last 10-15 years worthy of the great teams from 86 - 2001. He dragged the team back into it yesterday. And here's the funny thing, he never played underage.." I'm almost certain Keogan was on the same Meath minor team as Damien Carroll, Sean Tobin and Bryan Menton.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1664 - 10/02/2020 14:48:59
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Replying To CastleBravo: "When you say "get him committed to the cause ahead of rugby or aussie rules" what exactly do you mean?
Ensure he's read bedtime stories of Peter Darby, Mick Lyons and Ollie Murphy? Bar him from playing or looking at other sports? Tell him he should turn down a dream job in Rugby or Aussie rules if it ever arises, because he owes his life to Meath GAA for free?
Send him to "True Gael" re-education camps to train, study the book of kells, watch videos of the Mayo fight in 96, and go for weekly runs up the Hill of Tara?
Some lads need to realise that the GAA isn't the centre of the universe." Come on now - I am sure that you didn't come down in the last shower as they say.
I will give you two names
David Clifford
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/david-clifford-turning-down-aussie-rules-139142
Cathal McShane
https://www.balls.ie/gaa/cathal-mcshane-staying-tyrone-425681
Whatever chance we have of retaining our best players we will have much less of a chance if we do not build a relationship with the player, family and look at the options for that player going forward. We wont keep everyone of course and GAA is not the be all end all anymore (it isnt even for me and I used to be a fanatic).
Anyway this was only part of my suggestion as to the way forward.
As the saying goes, if you continue to do what you always did you will continue to get what you always got.
oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 10/02/2020 14:56:54
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Replying To Crinigan: "Regarding the Keoghan thing, I find it extraordinary that he never played underage and is still one of our greats.
But what does it tell us? To me it tells us that you often cannot tell if a player will be a good adult player by how dominant they are at underage. And I use the word dominant as opposed to good. I've seen so many players who didn't even make underage club teams come on and then have very good careers at senior club level. The reason for this is that even though they probably didn't enjoy being left off underage teams for the bigger more effective lads, they loved and respected the sport and stuck at it.
I'd love if we had academy system at county level where we identified players and assessed them not on how they would win us an u15 or u16 match against Kildare or Dublin that weekend or even a minor match, but on their attitudes to the game, their ability to kick off both feet and pass off both hands, how they respect their coaches and the officials, how hard they train, how much they want to become good footballers at adult level, whether for county or not, even their attitudes to their schoolwork - this is the approach used in the US for sport and they've years more experience at attracting the kind of talent that succeeds at adult level.
However, it takes people involved who who have courage and conviction and who can truly identify talent at underage level - not just pick the obvious more developed lads, regardless of application, intelligence or potential, just so you can win a few matches up in Millbrook with your 15 midfielders. There's a reason why in the Netherlands they don't count the score in underage soccer matches until u16 - its because it doesn't make sense to do so - everyone is developing at different stages and if you start making it all about results, you will lose the majority of players who don't develop until much later, like your Donal Keoghans." I think in general the academy will identify the best players but that county selectors must not become reliant on that and be open to the late developers / top club players.
oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 10/02/2020 14:59:05
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Replying To oldsam_newsam: "I think in general the academy will identify the best players but that county selectors must not become reliant on that and be open to the late developers / top club players." You are correct and unfortunately that is what happens they do become reliant and proceed to ignore better club plauers. Many good county minors never make good county players, or indeed good club players either-many examples
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 10/02/2020 16:02:06
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Replying To CastleBravo: "I'm almost certain Keogan was on the same Meath minor team as Damien Carroll, Sean Tobin and Bryan Menton." Donal keoghan did play underage for Meath. Donal keoghan played minor and under 21 for Meath.
In 2009 Donal keoghan played minor for Meath. Meath played kildare in leinster minor semi final in 2009 . On that Meath team was Ciaran Lenihan, Sean Toibin, Bryan Menton and Padraig McKeever. Donal keoghan came on as sub in the second half.
Donal keoghan played underage for Meath at under 21. He was member of last Meath team to beat Dublin at under 21/20 level. In February 2011 Meath under 21s beat Dublin in leinster. Jim Galvin was Dublin manager and liam Harnan Meath manager. Meath loss to longford in the folllwing game. On that under 21 Meath team that beat Dublin was Micheal Newman, Bryan Menton, Mark Sullivan, Sean Curran and yes Donal keoghan. Donal keoghan played underage with Meath.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 10/02/2020 17:39:03
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Replying To Crinigan: "Issue with DoF and style of play is that what if he implements a style of play that is outdated in 3/4 years time? What if he picks only his cronies for the coaching jobs or players from certain clubs? Its a lot of trust to put in one person.
I think whats most important is that we develop as well rounded players as possible. Coaching coaches is therefore vital - do all the coaches of underage club teams in Meath have coaching badges? Obviously not so Dunganny should be full once or twice a month with coaching seminars. We don't have the money to pay for coaches like Dublin, so lets educate as much as possible the men and women who give up their time so admirably with custom made courses." There was a coaching seminar in Dunganny last Saturday week, open to all in county, there was probably about 25 people who attended so where do you go from there
Analyst (Meath) - Posts: 1489 - 10/02/2020 19:27:29
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Replying To Crinigan: "Regarding the Keoghan thing, I find it extraordinary that he never played underage and is still one of our greats.
But what does it tell us? To me it tells us that you often cannot tell if a player will be a good adult player by how dominant they are at underage. And I use the word dominant as opposed to good. I've seen so many players who didn't even make underage club teams come on and then have very good careers at senior club level. The reason for this is that even though they probably didn't enjoy being left off underage teams for the bigger more effective lads, they loved and respected the sport and stuck at it.
I'd love if we had academy system at county level where we identified players and assessed them not on how they would win us an u15 or u16 match against Kildare or Dublin that weekend or even a minor match, but on their attitudes to the game, their ability to kick off both feet and pass off both hands, how they respect their coaches and the officials, how hard they train, how much they want to become good footballers at adult level, whether for county or not, even their attitudes to their schoolwork - this is the approach used in the US for sport and they've years more experience at attracting the kind of talent that succeeds at adult level.
However, it takes people involved who who have courage and conviction and who can truly identify talent at underage level - not just pick the obvious more developed lads, regardless of application, intelligence or potential, just so you can win a few matches up in Millbrook with your 15 midfielders. There's a reason why in the Netherlands they don't count the score in underage soccer matches until u16 - its because it doesn't make sense to do so - everyone is developing at different stages and if you start making it all about results, you will lose the majority of players who don't develop until much later, like your Donal Keoghans." I agree with most of what you say but if Meath went to Millbrook and got beaten out the door you would have people on here asking what is wrong with our underage., There can only be one winner every year. Have Meath improved over past few years ? Absolutely, Has our underage improved? Absolutely. Most realistic people knew that before a ball was thrown in this league campaign that we were very unlikely to survive in the top flight. It now looks like we could finish pointless, but isn't it better to be where we are than in Div 2. We should have gotten a win yesterday but we still woukd not get another point in division. The style of football is disappointing but hopefully it will improve our players and show them.the level they need to get to.
Analyst (Meath) - Posts: 1489 - 10/02/2020 19:41:02
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Yeah people need to be realistic and be honest that we knew we were going to be relegated from Division 1 but McEntee has the right attitude. After the game he said we will definitely have improved since we came into Div 1. I would agree with him, we have been ravaged by injury so a lot of players that didn't play in Div 2 last year have been thrown straight into Division 1 with the best 7 teams in the country.
Our poorest performance was last week against Donegal, they looked much wiser and maybe we were naive at times but I am happy with the performances against Tyrone and Mayo.
If we can keep this group of players together and maybe work on 1 or 2 areas in the team and go into Division 2 next year and try to get back up to Division 1 at the first attempt I feel we will be making progress.
The trouble will be to keep all the players apart of the panel. When you are losing every game and some lads are not getting game time or very limited game time people tend to pack it in. We definitely have improved at underage in the last couple of years and there is a lot of good work being done by coaches. If we can consistently add one or two players from each u20 squad it will bode well for the future.
Barney123 (Meath) - Posts: 676 - 10/02/2020 21:09:30
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Replying To Analyst: "There was a coaching seminar in Dunganny last Saturday week, open to all in county, there was probably about 25 people who attended so where do you go from there" It wasnt well advertised and to b honest the same old heads each year poacher nally.need bit new blood now.laverty,coghlan cork man dempsey laois.
Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 496 - 11/02/2020 04:05:49
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Replying To oldsam_newsam: "Having looked at our performances in division 1 of the league and seeing how counties such as Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Donegal are so far ahead of us we really need to get a consistent approach to developing football in the county.
I think that we need to identify and appoint someone that can take an overseeing look at football in the county - they should take an oversight of all county teams and try and get a consistent style of play and try and pre empt any possible attrition of players.
They should also be of a sufficient level and status that they could give guidance to each team at each level.
I am thinking of someone like Colm O'Rourke and appoint on a four or five year basis. Hopefully we should be able to get a sponsor to pay for it.
We really need to do something because we have really become also rans since Boylan's times - I think that there has to be more potential out there and a consistent approach all the way up and doing the right thing for the top players and each age level should start to bear fruit." This was already spoken about 4 or 5 years ago. The 3 man panel of directors . Colm was mentioned as one. Referred to on this forum as" 3 wise men" Not a word about them now. What happened ? Seems strange.
We certainly need to raise our standards in terms of development of younger players coaching, assist with education career paths etc.. At senior level when our best players are on view there is far too much evidence of fear and tension in our players and play.Makes you wonder where are we on team bonding for instance. Have we advanced in our approach to coaching and development at all. The days when coaches rely on the their ability to just raise the decibels as the main vehicle for "motivation" are long gone. Helping and investing in improving coaching standards are now essential at every level. We have to raise the bar here. We need leadership and direction to cope with the modern day requirements of the game . The days when you continue to do the same thing ,and expect a different outcome ate long gone
nobull456 (Meath) - Posts: 1266 - 11/02/2020 09:01:43
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Replying To nobull456: "This was already spoken about 4 or 5 years ago. The 3 man panel of directors . Colm was mentioned as one. Referred to on this forum as" 3 wise men" Not a word about them now. What happened ? Seems strange.
We certainly need to raise our standards in terms of development of younger players coaching, assist with education career paths etc.. At senior level when our best players are on view there is far too much evidence of fear and tension in our players and play.Makes you wonder where are we on team bonding for instance. Have we advanced in our approach to coaching and development at all. The days when coaches rely on the their ability to just raise the decibels as the main vehicle for "motivation" are long gone. Helping and investing in improving coaching standards are now essential at every level. We have to raise the bar here. We need leadership and direction to cope with the modern day requirements of the game . The days when you continue to do the same thing ,and expect a different outcome ate long gone" Yes I agree. I was hopeful when I heard about the 3 wise men but there has been a lot of changes at the top in Meath Co. Board and I think the real focus is on Pairc Tailteann and they are just keeping the various teams ticking over.
I see where another poster is questioning the strength and conditioning of the under 20's team - I'd also ask the same question regarding the senior team. We need a proper strength and conditioning programme for under age and senior county teams. For this I would include both hurling and football but I would keep the main focus of the Director of Football on football throughout the county at all levels.
We cant be waiting until we finally get Pairc Tailteann rebuilt for us to put the best structures in place. We need to start ASAP or none of us will see SAM back again in Meath in our lifetimes.
oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 12/02/2020 09:32:33
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I am back on this chestnut but make no apologies for doing so.
Surely it must be obvious to the powers that be that a new approach is required. That under 20'#s team was one of our best groups of players in recent years yet they were blown away on Saturday. Our senior team could well end up the league with no points.
We need a much greater focus on our county football teams. We need to implement best practice and develop our best footballers from a young age. Appointing an under 20's football manager in December is just not good enough.
I don't mind even paying for this. I (and i am sure many others) would be prepared to pay a €10 a month into a membership of Meath supporters if I knew something would be done to get that consistency and get some reduction into club games.
I think we need a strong, focused individual pushing the county football agenda and its just not happening at the moment. Also we need people working for him and with the schools across the county - and alluded to on the under 20's thread.
oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 24/02/2020 10:21:22
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Replying To CastleBravo: "I'm almost certain Keogan was on the same Meath minor team as Damien Carroll, Sean Tobin and Bryan Menton." He was there's a photo of that team in the year book of 09 I think and he's in it.
latouche25 (Meath) - Posts: 532 - 25/02/2020 02:37:40
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