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What is the story with the U17 Championship been delayed??? Games were down for this week where I see the entire round has been postponed. I understand there was some issue regarding amalgamation's but I am assuming that the County Board cannot allow two division 1 teams to amalgamate.
indaknow2018 (Cavan) - Posts: 17 - 09/07/2018 10:56:12
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Replying To indaknow2018: "What is the story with the U17 Championship been delayed??? Games were down for this week where I see the entire round has been postponed. I understand there was some issue regarding amalgamation's but I am assuming that the County Board cannot allow two division 1 teams to amalgamate." Cavan Gaels and Killygarry are amalgamating - nothing the County Board or anyone else can do about it as theres no rules around amalgamating. Didn't Drumloman Gaels enter two teams in the u15 league and both got to their finals, and if you look at previous years, Division 1 teams have amalgamated previously.
And as a matter of fact, the Gaels and Killygarry finished bottom of the the Division One league yet Trinity Gaels who finished above them went down to Division Two for the Championship.
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 09/07/2018 13:57:18
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Cavan Gaels and Killygarry are amalgamating - nothing the County Board or anyone else can do about it as theres no rules around amalgamating. Didn't Drumloman Gaels enter two teams in the u15 league and both got to their finals, and if you look at previous years, Division 1 teams have amalgamated previously.
And as a matter of fact, the Gaels and Killygarry finished bottom of the the Division One league yet Trinity Gaels who finished above them went down to Division Two for the Championship." They finished bottom as they conceded most of their games don't think it was because they were not able to compete at this level . I just don't understand that the Gaels or Killygarry would not be able to field a team on their own considering their population. I understand teams have amalgamated before but they would of done so for both the league and championship. There is something more to all this as it was a bit late in the day to purpose this. Anyhow hope it is sorted soon so the competition can get underway, was a very enjoyable league with some fine displays , football was the real winner.
indaknow2018 (Cavan) - Posts: 17 - 09/07/2018 14:53:20
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Cavan Gaels and Killygarry are amalgamating - nothing the County Board or anyone else can do about it as theres no rules around amalgamating. Didn't Drumloman Gaels enter two teams in the u15 league and both got to their finals, and if you look at previous years, Division 1 teams have amalgamated previously.
And as a matter of fact, the Gaels and Killygarry finished bottom of the the Division One league yet Trinity Gaels who finished above them went down to Division Two for the Championship." Didn't Killygarry win the U16 Division 2 championship last year and Cavan Gaels topped the U16 Division 1 league ? Yet this year at U17 they feel the need to amalgamate where have all these players gone? there's something seriously wrong here.
aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 256 - 09/07/2018 15:12:08
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Replying To aceofspades: "Didn't Killygarry win the U16 Division 2 championship last year and Cavan Gaels topped the U16 Division 1 league ? Yet this year at U17 they feel the need to amalgamate where have all these players gone? there's something seriously wrong here." Both teams are struggling with numbers, conceded a lot of games in the league, and finished last in Division One, so there was little option for them. Both possibly could have had the numbers, but that would have included a few u15s, however, the county board decided to move the original fixtures, so both teams have lads on holidays - In any case, its very hard for any single club nowadays to compete the amalgamations.
A proposal was put to the Co Board to have a Division One A & B, with the amalgamations in one group and the singular teams in another, with the single teams being a 13-aside competition, however, being the Co Board they didn't want to listen.
As I said, there's no rules around amalgamations, any clubs, no matter how big or small numbers they have, can amalgamate, Drumloman Gaels had 2 teams , one in the u15 division one final and one in the division 5 final.
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 09/07/2018 17:15:51
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Both teams are struggling with numbers, conceded a lot of games in the league, and finished last in Division One, so there was little option for them. Both possibly could have had the numbers, but that would have included a few u15s, however, the county board decided to move the original fixtures, so both teams have lads on holidays - In any case, its very hard for any single club nowadays to compete the amalgamations.
A proposal was put to the Co Board to have a Division One A & B, with the amalgamations in one group and the singular teams in another, with the single teams being a 13-aside competition, however, being the Co Board they didn't want to listen.
As I said, there's no rules around amalgamations, any clubs, no matter how big or small numbers they have, can amalgamate, Drumloman Gaels had 2 teams , one in the u15 division one final and one in the division 5 final." There must be some rules regarding this as they have not refixed round 1 as far as I am aware of?
Can you decide to amalgamate mid year once league has been completed? Seems unfair really. If that was the case I am sure alot of other teams will look into doing the same. There was a CCC meeting recently why was it not taken to this , as far as I can gather the proposal was held out until the last minute. Drumlane are well able to compete in this competition and seem happy to participate.
indaknow2018 (Cavan) - Posts: 17 - 10/07/2018 12:18:41
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Replying To indaknow2018: "There must be some rules regarding this as they have not refixed round 1 as far as I am aware of?
Can you decide to amalgamate mid year once league has been completed? Seems unfair really. If that was the case I am sure alot of other teams will look into doing the same. There was a CCC meeting recently why was it not taken to this , as far as I can gather the proposal was held out until the last minute. Drumlane are well able to compete in this competition and seem happy to participate." I can categorically tell you there is no rules or regulations around amalgamations. Any team can decide to amalgamate with another team, in fact, any team can decide to amalgamate with more than one team and theres no rules stopping them from doing so.
As stated before, Drumloman Gaels fielded two teams in the U15 league this year, last year they apparently amalgamated because both teams were low in the numbers yet they had 30 odd players togged out for the final and during the speech after the final, the chairperson of the under age stated that this would never happen again, yet here we are once again.
The simple solution is to let amalgamations play in their own championship and single clubs play in their own 13 aside championship, that's the fairest solution and a solution that was proposed to the county board yet it was ignored.
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 10/07/2018 13:32:43
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Replying To cavanblueman: "I can categorically tell you there is no rules or regulations around amalgamations. Any team can decide to amalgamate with another team, in fact, any team can decide to amalgamate with more than one team and theres no rules stopping them from doing so.
As stated before, Drumloman Gaels fielded two teams in the U15 league this year, last year they apparently amalgamated because both teams were low in the numbers yet they had 30 odd players togged out for the final and during the speech after the final, the chairperson of the under age stated that this would never happen again, yet here we are once again.
The simple solution is to let amalgamations play in their own championship and single clubs play in their own 13 aside championship, that's the fairest solution and a solution that was proposed to the county board yet it was ignored." In fairness though to just take two teams for example Naomh Brid and St Joes, they amalgamate out of necessity they haven't got the numbers even if they were to down to pick players at U14 level they'd get it tight to field on their own, put these up against Drumlomans , Lough Oughters or even Southern Gaels they wouldn't have a hope of competing, so putting all amalgamations into one Division would not work. As you say Drumloman was formed at U16 level with one aim only ,that was to win, not to give lads games, they left 15/16 year olds on the bench whilst they played at least 3 U14's in their forward line. On other threads there's discussion regarding the drop out rates in football, amalgamations when not necessary is a sure way to lose players. I agree with you that there should be the option for clubs to play 13 a side if they wish.
aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 256 - 10/07/2018 15:03:18
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I can understand that about the ruling but what I can't get my head around is the fact teams can do this after the league is completed , so for example West Cavn Clubs like Dernacrieve Gaels won the Div 1 League , Templeport won Division 3 (I think) that these west cavan clubs can now join and compete in two different divisions? Or that Templeport can decide now to go with Drumlane????
Why did the Gaels and Killylgarry wait until now to put in a request? Surely after the League they knew where they stood regarding numbers.
Hopefully it can be sorted and all parties are happy with the outcome . But I would have my doubts about this... there is something not adding up and my view it is with each club involved
indaknow2018 (Cavan) - Posts: 17 - 10/07/2018 15:08:11
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Killygarry and the Gaels had no choice to amalgamate nor was it a last minute decision, the Co Board were well aware of the issues during the league when both clubs and others had to concede matches due to numbers. A number of discussions were held back then to highlight issues. A number of singular Division One Clubs submitted a proposal to the Co Board many weeks ago to reduce the Division One Championship down to 13 aside. The amalgamations in Division One have the benefit of being able to field a strong 15 aside team with players who are 16/17, whereas most of the singular teams are having to call on U15 players to make up their U17 team. Had the Division One championship been reduced to 13 aside, its likely that the Gaels and Killygarry may have been able to field a team. In addition, the County Board also decided to move the championship to a later date, meaning many players will be away on holidays.
In any case, the crux of the matter is that the Co Board dont seem to care about underage football. There are numerous players in many clubs in the County between the ages of 17 & 18 who have played no football this year because the Co Board reduced the grade to u17, theres no u18 or u19 competition, and the u20 will be run off over 4 weeks in November, and people wonder why the dropout rate is so high and why the County Team are going backward. I know of two big clubs who have at least 10 players between the ages of 17-18 who have no football in 2018 - if you're a member of a club, ask your chairperson or secretary how many players between the ages of 17 to 20 that have not represented your club this year and ask them why.
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 10/07/2018 16:03:40
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Killygarry and the Gaels had no choice to amalgamate nor was it a last minute decision, the Co Board were well aware of the issues during the league when both clubs and others had to concede matches due to numbers. A number of discussions were held back then to highlight issues. A number of singular Division One Clubs submitted a proposal to the Co Board many weeks ago to reduce the Division One Championship down to 13 aside. The amalgamations in Division One have the benefit of being able to field a strong 15 aside team with players who are 16/17, whereas most of the singular teams are having to call on U15 players to make up their U17 team. Had the Division One championship been reduced to 13 aside, its likely that the Gaels and Killygarry may have been able to field a team. In addition, the County Board also decided to move the championship to a later date, meaning many players will be away on holidays.
In any case, the crux of the matter is that the Co Board dont seem to care about underage football. There are numerous players in many clubs in the County between the ages of 17 & 18 who have played no football this year because the Co Board reduced the grade to u17, theres no u18 or u19 competition, and the u20 will be run off over 4 weeks in November, and people wonder why the dropout rate is so high and why the County Team are going backward. I know of two big clubs who have at least 10 players between the ages of 17-18 who have no football in 2018 - if you're a member of a club, ask your chairperson or secretary how many players between the ages of 17 to 20 that have not represented your club this year and ask them why." Was there a reason they moved it out I assume that has affected each club not just the Gaels and Killygarry. When do they see a decision on when these games will be played? Be interesting to see how many of the amalgamated clubs have used 15 year olds like the Gales and Killygarry, but I guess we would never find that out .
There is a massive drop out but sometimes it is not all the Clubs fault , I know of two players who have walked away this year , first year with the Senior Team and just because they didn't get started in the first two league games they walked. Some of these young players have a stinking attitude and they feel they can sprint before they can walk. Tell me of any player who hasn't had a spell on the bench . It is a pity as it is Clubs first and our County teams who will suffer,
And finally one last issue but this is only going on reports as I was not at any of the games but the panel for U17 team was surprising, St Pat's seem to rule football in Cavan again is this fair on a player.? But I don't know enough about it but have heard alot of whispering in the background regarding it.
Anyhow lets hope for a good championship I always enjoyed the minor competition and I feel this is its replacement.
indaknow2018 (Cavan) - Posts: 17 - 10/07/2018 16:44:23
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Looking at the results from last night out of 8 games, 2 were won by over 30 points another by 24 and two were conceded, this may have being due to lads being away but 20+ point differences are no good to any team or player.
Indaknow, yes there's probably a majority of St Pats players on the county panels, but the fact is that a lot of young lads from around the county elect to go there to play football, you have lads from Mullagh to Bawnboy to Gowna all bypassing their local schools to go to St Pats.
On player dropout, take this U17 league, is there actually any club or amalgamation, out there, who will start all their 16/17 year olds ahead of their u15's?
aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 256 - 11/07/2018 11:12:56
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Lads, underage in the County is rotten to its core. It has been for a long time now, but it has been ignored by the County Board for years, however, a lot of clubs must take some of the blame for allowing it to happen. The problem with the clubs is that there are too many people involved at executive level with no vision for the future of their clubs. They are stuck in past, allowing their pride to dictate and as such they are stopping their clubs from moving on. Lets be realistic here, some clubs in Cavan do not have a future so there is no doubt about it, some clubs need to amalgamate, the sooner they realise this, the better it will be for their players. I know for a fact that there are some clubs out there who will flatly refuse to amalgamate and would prefer that their players play no football this year than to amalgamate with another club. This is a selfish attitude from people living in the past.
Some of the results last night were shocking, and whats more shocking is that two matches were conceded, actually, its not shocking, because, numerous matches were cancelled in the league also. Whats the issue here, why are players dropping out, why is there so much of a scoring difference in some matches, are teams playing in the wrong divisions, do the Co Board even care.
As for some Pats, you cant blame lads for going to to St Pats, because they're guaranteed regular football, in fact, most players have actually played for games for St Pats than they have for their own clubs.
In essence, there are two things, the Co Board are the main issue and the clubs for letting the Co Board get away with it. As I said numerous times, there are well over 100 players between the ages of 17 & 18 who have played no football this year with their clubs. Shocking.
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 11/07/2018 11:43:34
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Lads, underage in the County is rotten to its core. It has been for a long time now, but it has been ignored by the County Board for years, however, a lot of clubs must take some of the blame for allowing it to happen. The problem with the clubs is that there are too many people involved at executive level with no vision for the future of their clubs. They are stuck in past, allowing their pride to dictate and as such they are stopping their clubs from moving on. Lets be realistic here, some clubs in Cavan do not have a future so there is no doubt about it, some clubs need to amalgamate, the sooner they realise this, the better it will be for their players. I know for a fact that there are some clubs out there who will flatly refuse to amalgamate and would prefer that their players play no football this year than to amalgamate with another club. This is a selfish attitude from people living in the past.
Some of the results last night were shocking, and whats more shocking is that two matches were conceded, actually, its not shocking, because, numerous matches were cancelled in the league also. Whats the issue here, why are players dropping out, why is there so much of a scoring difference in some matches, are teams playing in the wrong divisions, do the Co Board even care.
As for some Pats, you cant blame lads for going to to St Pats, because they're guaranteed regular football, in fact, most players have actually played for games for St Pats than they have for their own clubs.
In essence, there are two things, the Co Board are the main issue and the clubs for letting the Co Board get away with it. As I said numerous times, there are well over 100 players between the ages of 17 & 18 who have played no football this year with their clubs. Shocking." The youth board is a sub committee to the County Board this is chaired by Mr Segrave maybe time that he was moved on for he has been there for over a decade. They changed the names to facilitate this to happen Youth board Minor Board Development board ect. Maybe if this situation was changed you might find that teams will be playing at the stronger level that they should be in, Is it all down to winning anything at what ever cost.
The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 11/07/2018 13:08:29
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Interesting documentary on RTE tonight regarding the importance of "Club", "Jersey", "Crest" - hard for young players to be expected to reconcile the "Die for the club" attitude with Amalgamations and even harder for players to sit on the bench and do same !
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-game-30005366/10914540/
I think the original point of amalgamations is now lost and it is to the detriment of all clubs. It's like a race to the Top in reverse. There'll only be one winner. Reducing amalgamations will give a more even spread of gametime to more players and there still will be only one winner but even more happier losers. If you look at Drumloman last year, that amalgamation was put together purely to try and win the championship rather than out of necessity. And they did ! That type of scenario should be avoided as it will become the norm if it hasn't already. When you see that happening, you may forget about it, nearly as bad as Qatar World cup job ! For any young person, I believe representing your club against other local clubs is a bigger prize than winning an elite tournament for amalgamations !
There are enough opportunities for elite players with county development squads, and college teams. Let the clubs play their club players where possible and don't pander to the amalgamations. I think the County Board needs to step in. Currently, shortsightedness is a word that comes to mind. Why not use the amalgamations for the senior teams like they do in Kerry. We might win something of note then with the seniors.
Will Killygarry and Cavan Gaels amalgamate in 2019 ? I believe they will regardless of numbers like Drumloman ! If Oliver Plunketts win this year's championship, the county board may change the rules.
Currently, there are no rule limitations here and if it is not managed properly, longterm or shortterm, this will only speedup the loss of players from the clubs and maybe a missed opportunity for the county. There is serious evidence already there.
The county board don't give a damn about the ordinary young club player, some of whom will eventually play county - late bloomers. All they want is the current elite player. The more amalgamations they have the better the games should be and better the players may become and ...... In theory.
The club is the centrepiece of the GAA and the young player is the future of the club.
But there needs to be opportunities for the average young "club" player to play for his "club" in his "club" jersey with his club crest on it. Playing for Amalgamations is not the same as playing for your club it just cannot be !
When all is said and done, the county team was originally the "Club" winners of the county.
Jampot (Cavan) - Posts: 76 - 31/07/2018 02:31:11
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Replying To Jampot: "Interesting documentary on RTE tonight regarding the importance of "Club", "Jersey", "Crest" - hard for young players to be expected to reconcile the "Die for the club" attitude with Amalgamations and even harder for players to sit on the bench and do same !
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-game-30005366/10914540/
I think the original point of amalgamations is now lost and it is to the detriment of all clubs. It's like a race to the Top in reverse. There'll only be one winner. Reducing amalgamations will give a more even spread of gametime to more players and there still will be only one winner but even more happier losers. If you look at Drumloman last year, that amalgamation was put together purely to try and win the championship rather than out of necessity. And they did ! That type of scenario should be avoided as it will become the norm if it hasn't already. When you see that happening, you may forget about it, nearly as bad as Qatar World cup job ! For any young person, I believe representing your club against other local clubs is a bigger prize than winning an elite tournament for amalgamations !
There are enough opportunities for elite players with county development squads, and college teams. Let the clubs play their club players where possible and don't pander to the amalgamations. I think the County Board needs to step in. Currently, shortsightedness is a word that comes to mind. Why not use the amalgamations for the senior teams like they do in Kerry. We might win something of note then with the seniors.
Will Killygarry and Cavan Gaels amalgamate in 2019 ? I believe they will regardless of numbers like Drumloman ! If Oliver Plunketts win this year's championship, the county board may change the rules.
Currently, there are no rule limitations here and if it is not managed properly, longterm or shortterm, this will only speedup the loss of players from the clubs and maybe a missed opportunity for the county. There is serious evidence already there.
The county board don't give a damn about the ordinary young club player, some of whom will eventually play county - late bloomers. All they want is the current elite player. The more amalgamations they have the better the games should be and better the players may become and ...... In theory.
The club is the centrepiece of the GAA and the young player is the future of the club.
But there needs to be opportunities for the average young "club" player to play for his "club" in his "club" jersey with his club crest on it. Playing for Amalgamations is not the same as playing for your club it just cannot be !
When all is said and done, the county team was originally the "Club" winners of the county." Club and winning?
To me participation, health and enjoyment and far more important at that age.
doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 31/07/2018 10:52:27
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Replying To Jampot: "Interesting documentary on RTE tonight regarding the importance of "Club", "Jersey", "Crest" - hard for young players to be expected to reconcile the "Die for the club" attitude with Amalgamations and even harder for players to sit on the bench and do same !
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-game-30005366/10914540/
I think the original point of amalgamations is now lost and it is to the detriment of all clubs. It's like a race to the Top in reverse. There'll only be one winner. Reducing amalgamations will give a more even spread of gametime to more players and there still will be only one winner but even more happier losers. If you look at Drumloman last year, that amalgamation was put together purely to try and win the championship rather than out of necessity. And they did ! That type of scenario should be avoided as it will become the norm if it hasn't already. When you see that happening, you may forget about it, nearly as bad as Qatar World cup job ! For any young person, I believe representing your club against other local clubs is a bigger prize than winning an elite tournament for amalgamations !
There are enough opportunities for elite players with county development squads, and college teams. Let the clubs play their club players where possible and don't pander to the amalgamations. I think the County Board needs to step in. Currently, shortsightedness is a word that comes to mind. Why not use the amalgamations for the senior teams like they do in Kerry. We might win something of note then with the seniors.
Will Killygarry and Cavan Gaels amalgamate in 2019 ? I believe they will regardless of numbers like Drumloman ! If Oliver Plunketts win this year's championship, the county board may change the rules.
Currently, there are no rule limitations here and if it is not managed properly, longterm or shortterm, this will only speedup the loss of players from the clubs and maybe a missed opportunity for the county. There is serious evidence already there.
The county board don't give a damn about the ordinary young club player, some of whom will eventually play county - late bloomers. All they want is the current elite player. The more amalgamations they have the better the games should be and better the players may become and ...... In theory.
The club is the centrepiece of the GAA and the young player is the future of the club.
But there needs to be opportunities for the average young "club" player to play for his "club" in his "club" jersey with his club crest on it. Playing for Amalgamations is not the same as playing for your club it just cannot be !
When all is said and done, the county team was originally the "Club" winners of the county." The Gaels & Killygarry amalgamated purely out of necessity, the necessity to give their young players the opportunity to play football. Both sides are short numbers and a quick glance back to their league fixtures show both teams conceded most of their games as they couldn't field teams. Killygarry/Gaels along with some others made a suggestion to the Co Board to reduce the championship competition to 13 aside, which would have allowed them to field teams on their own, but this was shot down by the Co Board, so they have no choice but to amalgamate.
But the laughable thing about it all, is that there are no rules around amalgamations, some teams to have two teams in the competition, where's the sense in that? Surely if you can enter two teams, then there should be numbers to enter on your own.
The other laughable thing is that when the vote to allow the Gaels & Killygarry to amalgamate came about a few weeks back, most of those who voted against it were actually amalgamation teams themselves - imagine, amalgamations voting against two clubs wanting to amalgamate!!! (Only in Cavan) the majority of clubs who voted for it were individual clubs, and hats off to the, because they understood the need for young lads to play football and they realised that they may have to amalgamate themselves sometime in the future.
Most of the County Board executive voted for it, but of those that didn't vote for it was from Drumloman Gaels - so if you want to know why Cavan Football is in dire straits, just ask yourself why a member of the Cavan County Board Top Table voted to prevent 16 and 17 yr old lads playing football.
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 13/08/2018 11:24:17
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What's laughable is that cavan gaels with the population they have, have failed so badly to harvest that population to the extent they cannot get 15 u17s together. If we are to believe the last poster. Same for killygarry.
fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1483 - 13/08/2018 19:46:59
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The sad fact is that no club from the biggest (at least population wise) parish in the county can field a team under their own name at U17 level. How is it that neither Killygarry who won the U16 Division 2 championship last year nor Cavan Gaels who competed in the U16 Division 1 league final last year can't field a team this year at U17 level? Were these competitions 13 a side last year?
aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 256 - 14/08/2018 11:20:15
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Replying To fredflint: "What's laughable is that cavan gaels with the population they have, have failed so badly to harvest that population to the extent they cannot get 15 u17s together. If we are to believe the last poster. Same for killygarry." There nothing new about that. In the 70s Killygarry / Gaels / Drumalee known as Oliver Plunketts won 1/2 u16 championships same time as the Gaels were winning senior titles.
In fact for lads like Ciaran o Keefe , Cyril o Keefe , sean Leddy , Brendan Crowe all won minor and underage medals with the Gaels. So there nothing new there.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 14/08/2018 12:01:04
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