It could be on a knife edge, I am in fairly regular contact with a number of Scottish based Celtic Supporters and they are becoming a bit more confident that fan power will force some of the dithering Clubs to vote against the NEWCO. They are fairly confident that Dundee United will oppose it and say that Hearts fans are totally opposed to the NEWCO. However Romanov is such a loose canon, no one can predict what he will do.

It's appearing very likely that if Rangers are relegated to the third division then Sky will say cheerio. Do you think the smaller SPL clubs will take this financial hit which could be devastating in the interest of sporting integrity? I'm not so sure. Football is a business now and money talks

Celtic fans

Would ye not want to face a weakened Rangers 3 or 4 times every year now and hammer them in every game?

pplocal
County: Tyrone
Posts: 5194

It's appearing very likely that if Rangers are relegated to the third division then Sky will say cheerio. Do you think the smaller SPL clubs will take this financial hit which could be devastating in the interest of sporting integrity? I'm not so sure. Football is a business now and money talks

Now now Pomeroy surely you know better than to believe everything you hear that backs up the twisted view that Scottish football needs Rangers?

Sky have already come out and said they will continue to broadcast SPL games without the Hun newco. Now this might come with reduced fees but it may also come with a more level playing field.

At the moment the tv deal looks a little like this with regard to league positions and payouts;

1st 17% £2,550,000.00
2nd 15% £2,250,000.00
3rd 9.50% £1,425,000.00
4th 8.50% £1,275,000.00
5th 8.00% £1,200,000.00
6th 7.50% £1,125,000.00
7th 7% £1,050,000.00
8th 6.50% £975,000.00
9th 6.00% £900,000.00
10th 5.50% £825,000.00
11th 5% £750,000.00
12th 4.50% £675,000.00

Now surely we can all agree that the top two teams receiving almost one third of the pie between them makes things a little lob-sided?

If Sky were to request a renegotiation of the tv deal then it's very feasible to imagine a fairer more equal deal may be struck. Something I think a lot of the "smaller" clubs (let's be honest, when you say smaller you mean everybody bar the Old Firm), would be in favour of. Considering that Celtic's income from the tv deal makes up a relatively small percentage of their income I don't think they'd be too worried about this.

Ok there might be additional fees received for home teams regarding live tv fixtures shown, but again considering the monopoly the Glasgow clubs had over this it's not something that would be a major factor in how the vote goes.

On top of this if chairmen are more worried about financial affairs than they are sporting integrity then surely they'd be more worried by the number of fans and supporters clubs that have come out and said they would boycott clubs who vote to support the newco? I mean if you were in Rod Petrie's shoes what would you be more concerned with losing. The £750,000 you received for finishing second from bottom if Sky walk away? Or the fact that the majority of your home fans will walk away from the club, and the fact that Celtic, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen fans, along with small pockets of the rest, will refuse to travel to Easter Road for away matches?

The biggest income clubs have is ticket sales and season ticket revenue. A lot of fans will boycott their clubs and those who support Rangers.

Hey maybe even without Rangers more fans will attend matches. Without Sky less matches will kick off at crazy times to suit tv, again more fans would be willing to attend a match at 3.00pm on a Saturday than 12.15pm on a Sunday, or 8.00pm on a Monday night.

There's a lot of Scottish football fans who believe that Sky is one of the reasons the SPL is so uneven. The bigger share for the top two means they can continuously pull away from the rest. Football might be much better off Sky if they do indeed walk away. Then again there's always other broadcasters out there...

No Rangers? Greater chance for clubs to challenge for European places, increased crowds and a fairer tv deal. Win win I reckon for the smaller clubs.

mayoboy1
County: Mayo
Posts: 824

Celtic fans

Would ye not want to face a weakened Rangers 3 or 4 times every year now and hammer them in every game?

Would you be willing to buy into a poker game knowing that both the dealer and one of the other main players were crooked?

I believe that the chairmen and boards of the Scottish clubs have a better grasp of the figures of their club than you, me or indeed anyone on these boards. And it's clear from their comments that they face an incredibly difficult decision in weighing up the need to punish Rangers with the financial ramifications it will have for them. If, as you seem to be suggesting, they wouldn't face any drop in finances or indeed may lose money by re-admitting Rangers then the decision would be an easy one. But it clearly isn't so forgive me if I pay more heed to their statements than your opinions on what may transpire. It may well end up than Rangers will be demoted and it could actually be beneficial to them but it's certainly not as clear cut as you're suggesting

pplocal
County: Tyrone
Posts: 5196

I believe that the chairmen and boards of the Scottish clubs have a better grasp of the figures of their club than you, me or indeed anyone on these boards. And it's clear from their comments that they face an incredibly difficult decision in weighing up the need to punish Rangers with the financial ramifications it will have for them. If, as you seem to be suggesting, they wouldn't face any drop in finances or indeed may lose money by re-admitting Rangers then the decision would be an easy one. But it clearly isn't so forgive me if I pay more heed to their statements than your opinions on what may transpire. It may well end up than Rangers will be demoted and it could actually be beneficial to them but it's certainly not as clear cut as you're suggesting

I don't doubt that they do.

But then they'd also have a much better knowledge of their finances than a lot of the Rangers sympathisers in the media would have.

Some of them do face a very tough decision. Some of them have come out strongly and said they will listen to their fans, suggesting that it won't be that hard a decision to take.

Forgive me if I attempt to make my own calculations and judgements on this, by looking at facts, figures and a variety of statements, instead of just believing whatever ill informed clap trap is put to print by the likes of Chic Young et al.

Rangers being demoted to the third tier would be great for them. Continue with huge crowds at Ibrox, large ticket and merchandise sales, coupled with relatively lower outflows due to competing in the lower leagues, and they should no doubt succeed with successive promotions. Back into the SPL with a massive financial war chest gained over the three years out of it and they'd be well able to pick up where they've left off so to speak. If I were a Rangers fan I'd be happy to be getting away with a place in the third division, imagine all the poor clubs in the lower district leagues playing by the rules who they'd be jumping ahead of in the queue for league football.

So when you say the majority of fans of some clubs will stop supporting their club that is a fact? That no Celtic, Dundee Utd or Aberdeen fans will travel to away games is also a fact? These aren't facts, these are opinions and personally I think you're exceptionally naive to believe them. How long will these protests last in your expert opinion? One year, 10 years, for life? I'd give it a month or two to make their point before people start going back to support the club they love and have supported all their life. There's no doubt fans want Rangers to be punished and supporter groups are trying to put pressure on their boards to come down heavily on them but they don't understand their finances the way their club does. If demoting Rangers didn't pose significant problems for them Rangers would be demoted quicker than you could say liquidation. So you may make judgements based on these supposed facts but clearly SPL clubs have differing views, perhaps you could send them your calculations so they'd realise they'd actually make money by demoting Rangers. It would be much appreciated I'm sure

pplocal
County: Tyrone
Posts: 5198

Well considering the amount of fans, polls, surveys and studies carried out over the last while the significant indication is that a lot of fans don't want Rangers, old or new in the SPL next season. Of course it's almost impossible to say for certain how fans will react if they are.

The problem with demoting Rangers isn't a simple one by any means.There's a series of legal ramifications if they accept the newco into the SFL or indeed the SPL. The rulebook could be open to multiple variants of interpretation, loopholes and exploitation.

There's next to no precedent for a situation like this. There's two companies out there, the first, Glasgow Rangers FC, which has no stadium or training ground, but has player and management contracts and is in liquidation. The second is Sevco 5088, trading as The Rangers Football Club holding the rights to both Ibrox and Murray Park, yet has no players, management or youth structure. Neither of these entities comes close to meeting the criteria required to be given an SFL or SPL licence, never mind a UEFA licence, which is a requirement for a club wishing to be a member of the SPL.

Yet somehow they may have a vote on demotion. It is still up for debate whether or not this vote will require the 8-4 majority or as it as a matter relating to league structure and administration, it may yet just require the old 11-1 vote, whereby one club can simply veto allowing them into the SPL.

The one thing that comes out of this so far is that clubs are well aware of how their fans feel. Some chairmen (Romanov for example) may well be swayed by the save Rangers argument. Others if they follow what the fans want will be left with a simple choice in comparison. Of course I can't say how long other fans will stay away from their club for, just like you can't say Sky would walk away from the tv deal. I'm not expecting you to take any of this a stone cold fact. No more than I'd expect Rangers sympathisers to actually admit the club has done wrong and deserves to be severely punished.

Also no need to worry, there's plenty of people out there more qualified and in the know on these issues than you or I, working with a number of fans trusts and supporters groups. And yes they have passed on many of their calculations about the financial implications for both scenarios relating to the vote.

Nobody can predict with certainty what will happen, but I'd be leaning to the side supporting sporting integrity and punishing cheaters on this one.

Plus like many fans already know, there's more ways to support your than by just going to the stadium to watch matches. Could people really continue to love a club so much, especially if it goes against their wishes to such an extent as this? Love can fade.

Or perhaps we'll see a sprinkling of fan run clubs entering the lower leagues and doing things the correct way. If fan football can work for AFC Wimbledon and FC United of Manchester then who's to say it couldn't work in Scotland.

A lot of talk on today's page about Rangers getting demoted. In the interest of accuracy, I'd like to point out that Rangers Football Club no longer exist, the Club can't be demoted. The current debate in Scottish football surrounds a new club called THE Rangers Football Club established 2 days ago, it is yet to play a single game and is a member of no football league. The debate is about where this new club starts it's life, it's not about demoting a non existant Club.

You are spot on there artisan, we are all falling into the trap of talking about R*ngers being demoted when clearly what is at stake is in what League does an entirely new Club start out from. Any new Club should of course start at the bottom and work their way up. Its good that pp is back showing an interest for a while there I thought he had gone into Liquidation himself.

Great to see Sammy get one over on our old friend Dick. Well done Greece, superb never say die attitude.

Have to say Artisan, our favourite Greek superstar has been one of Greece's unsung hero's at the Euros. Working his socks off and giving everything for the cause. Hopefully when he returns after his holidays he'll be doing the same for us.......

Fixtures out today.

Aug 2012
04/08 Aberdeen Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 11/08 Real Madrid Friendly 18:30 N 18/08 Ross County Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 25/08 Inverness CT Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A

Sep 2012
01/09 Hibernian Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 15/09 St Johnstone Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 22/09 Club 12 Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 29/09 Motherwell Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A

Oct 2012
06/10 Heart of Midlothian Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 20/10 St Mirren Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 27/10 Kilmarnock Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H

Nov 2012
03/11 Dundee Utd Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 10/11 St Johnstone Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 17/11 Aberdeen Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 24/11 Inverness CT Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 28/11 Heart of Midlothian Clydesdale Bank Premier League 19:45 A

Dec 2012
08/12 Kilmarnock Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 15/12 St Mirren Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 22/12 Ross County Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 26/12 Club 12 Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 29/12 Hibernian Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A

Jan 2013
02/01 Motherwell Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 19/01 Heart of Midlothian Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 26/01 St Johnstone Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 30/01 Kilmarnock Clydesdale Bank Premier League 19:45 H

Feb 2013
09/02 Inverness CT Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 16/02 Dundee Utd Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 23/02 Club 12 Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 27/02 Motherwell Clydesdale Bank Premier League 19:45 A

Mar 2013
09/03 Ross County Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A 16/03 Aberdeen Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H 30/03 St Mirren Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 A

Apr 2013
06/04 Hibernian Clydesdale Bank Premier League 15:00 H

Hopefully Team 12's future can be sorted out ASAP so Dundee can plan on life in the big time again while Newco rot for a few seasons.

Sky have confirmed that there's no chance they'll pull the plug on the existing tv deal (Daily Mail), regardless of what league Zombie FC begins. Also the chief executive of the SFL has rubbished reports of Zombie FC getting into the first division, if the SPL clubs vote no, then it's a third division application according to him.

The Scottish third division means trips to places like Peterhead. Its 32 miles from the nearest train station to their pitch so it will be a nice stretch of the legs for them is a "bitin nor east gale" coming in off the North sea. Balmoor stadium is a place where the ball just blows off the pitch.

Independence Day is D-day then for The Team formerly known as R*ngers or Newco FC. Hopefully common sense will previal and they will be duly punished by the other SPL clubs for the wrongs they have commited. Down to Division 3 with you!!!!

Wonder how long it will be now before some of the players start getting signed up by other teams?

PFA Scotland have already come out and said that those who did not wish to have their contracts transferred over to Sevco would be classed as free agents. Understandable that those who may wish to stay will hold out until they know for definite what division they'll actually be playing in, but I'm sure they'd be able to get better deals elsewhere.

What the top players decide to do is crucial. If they walk it will take years to rebuild the team. SPL have also decided today that they do have a prima facie case to answer in respect of dual contracts. The behaviour of this Club has been one of the most disgraceful in Football History. Their fans are bleating about victimisation, they still have not grasped the enormity of the cheating that went on. If the SPL chairmen vote these crooks back into the SPL they will have sold their souls for Rupert Murdochs cash.

So the vote will hopefully this time take place on the 4th July, expect a deluge of media coverage demanding Sevco 5088 get direct access to the SPL. Personally, I expect this Club to be allowed in, but let us never forget how the SFA/SPL bent over backwards, ignoring and breaking their own rules, rules which were applied to other Clubs in similiar circumstances, all for the benefit of a corrupt 'sporting' brand that is TRFC.

As regards the dual contracts, the SPL have no choice but to strip Titles of the now defunct Rangers FC. I'll gladly take these Titles, ripped from the rigomortis clutches of the shameful RFC. But after Titles and Cups have been awarded to their rightful winners, that should be the end of it, you can't punish Sevco 5088 for the cheating of RFC.

Artisan, at the start of all this malarky i really thought there was no way there would be a SPL without them. I'm not so sure now. I really think that FIFA/UEFA pressure and the effect on the Scottish national team and European places will play a huge part in the decision. Also if Sky do honour their agreement then i think there is no chance they will be in the SPL next season.

They have to be punished, properly punished. In the same way Gretna were. There is only one form of punishment that fits. Another thing aswell is the assumption that they will be given a route into the SFL if the SPL licence is revoked. I can imagine a few Highland league team that may not be too happy with Newco FC getting in straight away. And if they do get in, there's no guarentee of them going straight back up, season after season. There's a rocky road ahead down Mordor way. Long may it continue.