04/07/2012 13:03:27
perfect10
County: Wexford
Posts: 383

1209279
Hurling will never develop if counties cant compete at the top tier.Carlow and Westmeath are going in the right direction,is creating another league for them in their interest?I cant help having my doubts.

Exactly, there is enough ring-fencing of teams. It's quite simple that if counties aren't happy in the top tier they can drop a level. London won the CRC this year and will consider promotion. Kerry won the CRC last year but didn't feel it was the right move. Had they played in the qualifiers, it'd have been a help in making their decision. Meyler did say he felt they need the experience of more games last summer. The options thrown out were an All-Ireland B against the likes of Laois, Carlow and Westmeath or else that they would've entered the qualifiers and tested themselves at least. Ring-fencing teams indefinitely is not the path to progression. If Kerry had got hammered against Cork in the qualifiers last year, I'm sure we'd have moved on from it and gone again in the CRC as we did with a clearer understanding of where we are, the size of the gap and on what needs to be done. You learn nothing by not competing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 04/07/2012 13:23:42    1209303

Well now theres an idea, a totally seperate competition whereby the teams knocked out of the Laim Mc Qualifiers in round one and preliminary such as Antrim, Westmeath, Carlow and Laois, Alongside the CRC semi finalists play out an all ireland B straight knock out from quarter final stage in mid July.

a quarter final draw of:

Antrim V Kerry
Laois V Wicklow
Carlow V Meath
Wm V London

This would allow a christy ring champion to test themselves v Laim McC teams to see if they feel they could go up.

However should the likes of offaly/wexford fall into this category would they play in such a competition?

I like this idea as it provides competitive competition.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 13:41:15    1209343

what about 4 groups of 4, leinster and munster championships played in april/may, with groups starting in june, provincial finalists and winners seeded, then semi finalist seeds and so on.

Top two from each group into quarters, bottom two from each group into CRC quarters.

Top 16 in my opinion for this comp.

KK
Tipp
Cork
Galway
Limerick
Wtaerford
Clare
Kerry
Dublin
Offaly
Laois
Wexford
Carlow
Wm
Antrim
London

Gives everyone a crack at the whip, give pronvinces and their winners their place, gives a minimum of five championship games, on top of the 5 league games thats 10 for the whole year.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 14:16:29    1209391

I still think the likes of Antrim offer more to the LMcCarthy cup than they would to a 2nd rate competition.Just because they had a bad 2nd quarter of the year with in-fighting and the like doesnt make them a bad team.Westmeath were only 12 points worse than Galway who went on to hammer Offaly,OK we hammered Westmeath but even still they are making progress.Carlow gave us a decent game of it.
My point is that creating a mickey mouse tournament will not help these teams.They will get better playing against better teams,as long as they dont mind shipping a hammering or two in the meantime but they expect that themselves.
Offaly would never have made their breakthrough in 1981 if they had just been cosseted away in mini-tournament with a fake prize.The work going in in these counties deserves to be enough to let them compete.
Now if a county decides they want to compete in the CR cup,that is fair enough.But I guarantee you none of the teams mentioned above will want to do that.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/07/2012 14:37:45    1209416

You won't need groups and matches to pick the top 8 out of that lot - KK, Tipp, Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Galway, Clare & Limerick. There, that's the quarter-finals sorted, and sixteen turkeyshoots avoided. To avoid further turkeyshoot matches, you could probably let Offaly & Wexford playoff for the CRC, or perhaps include Antrim in a round-robin, if they get their act together some time soon. Twelve teams is the maximum that should play in the Senior hurling championship, as some of the tonkings that have passed for matches lately are making a joke of the 'competition'.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4795 - 04/07/2012 14:40:27    1209419

I'd wait till after Sunday before I slag anyone off about turkey shoots PopeBenedict....

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/07/2012 16:31:21    1209559

I like the idea of all CRC semi-finalists being entered into the B competition (or shield whatever it would be) as well. As a carrot for being CRC winner though, there should be the chance of a crack at the qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 04/07/2012 16:46:05    1209577

Antrim havent beaten anyone outside of those mentioned other than dublin in the all irelands since 1989, not exactly the sign of a county going places!

We have beaten and been beaten by wm, same with laois weve beat carlow twice very luckily and all these sides play competitive league games with one another.

They need to beat one another regular before thinking about taking on clare or wexford with a genuine chance of winning.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 04/07/2012 16:47:40    1209581

The hurling league was a mess this year. Can they just go back to divisions of 8 and scraps the semi-finals and finals. Let the league be league and the championship be championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 04/07/2012 21:48:08    1209862

I've mentioned this before and I believe this will be the only solution:

Three Competitions: Leinster Chp. Munster Chp. and All Ireland Series
Provincials played first as separate competitions.
Followed by All Ireland open draw series (straight knock out) with Provincial winners getting a bye of the first round.

I think it would be fascinating and also maintain Leinster and Munster for the traditionalists

the_post (USA) - Posts: 188 - 05/07/2012 10:25:04    1209956

Was chatting last night and thought what if, the crc, nrc and lmc were run off before June, With winners gaining a place in an All Ireland " B" that included Rest of ulster team, rest of leinster team, rest of connaught & Kerry team, (depending on whether kerry win it or not) then Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath, London and CRC winners.

9 teams

1 preliminary round
1st round 8 teams
quater finals 4 teams
back door quarter finals
semis
Final.

Played throughout july/aug and sept, this would mean more counties represented playing hurling when hurling should be played, give the provincial teams the opportunity to "go up" the following year into Liam McCarthy therefore giving a realistic chance to a star player from fermanagh/mayo/meath to have a crack at playing proper Liam McCarthy, i know for a fact if this happened, Ulster would have the makings of a decent team if it was all sat down and worked out proper ie training schedules, home match venues etc.

This sort of thing could be a way forward for hurling as a national sport.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 07/07/2012 08:16:28    1211273

My favoured option has always been, get the number of realistic competing teams to the magic number of 16. If necessary have amalagmations. i.e. In Ulster, you could have Antrim and "Ulster" picking from remaining 8 Counties. London could be known as The Exiles giving them a wider pick. Kerry could be permed with the rest of Connaught apart from Galway etc. However its managed if we could get to 16 competing teams you could play a Champions League Format with 4 groups of 4 with top 2 in each group qualifying for the quarter-finals. The 4 semi-finalists in any year would be seeded for the 4 group stages the following year. Every Team would get 3 championship games. WE would have 4 quarter-finals instead of present 2. We would have 31 Championship games of hurling with every team being treated fairly.

corkcelt (Cork) - Posts: 4388 - 07/07/2012 09:57:14    1211293

Yeah glamourise it to sell it.

Northern Shamrocks for Ulster team
Western Gaels for conaught and kerry
Leinster Blues for leinster (obviously)
CRC Champs
Antrim
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath

Even run it after christy ring cup and put london into christy ring cup again so that everyone down there gets a crack at the whip.

2 Groups 4, Top two into semi finals, lowest place "county" team is relegated, as provincial teams need to hold their own.

Bit of marketing, tv coverage and ta da, you have a competition worth aspiring to play in, weather your from longford, cavan or Antrim.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 07/07/2012 13:43:26    1211434

The GAA we all know wont make the radical changes neccessary however, i still think it isnt that radical for a revamped christy ring to have 2 groups of 3/4 including Antrim Carlow Laois and Westmeath, the winners gaining promotion and a place in the qualfiers.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 07/07/2012 14:54:38    1211485

Why over complicate things or have magic numbers? I think the GAA are happy enough for teams to naturally accept promotion on winning the CRC if they feel they are ready. If we do naturally end up with 16, relegation will apply again. Until such a time that it does, the CRC winner should be accommodated in the qualifiers. If we do get to 16 and relegation/promotion is restored, it'll be interest to see if it'll be straight one up and down or a play-off.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9798 - 07/07/2012 15:20:35    1211499

Lets be honest Legend this isnt just about the Christy Ring winners, its about the hammerings seen in the lower ebbs of the Liam Mc Cup also, and thats what the GAA will look at. I dont agree with the current set up allowing the crc champions into the qualfiers, but a new christy ring cup with a higher standard of teams such as the four i keep going on about should allow for someone to make the step up. You can deny, Laois Carlow Antrim and Westmeath are a step above anything that was in Christy Ring this year maybe London Or Kerry on their day could challenge but the rest would be hammered.

The GAA will debate the format based on the hammerings of Antrim, Laois and Westmeath along with the fact that Carlow lost to Laois in that set of teams, they wont be looking at where the christy ring champs went. Kerry messed up in my opinion end of!

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 07/07/2012 15:36:59    1211509

I think the notion of having provincial sides in the championship (although not in a 'b' competition) has merit. If you could have provincial representative sides in the top tier, made up of players from counties not in the Liam McCarthy that year, it could really change the landscape of hurling. So this year, you could have had an Ulster team made up of the best players from Ulster outside Antrim, which would be a decent team. As the CRC ends before the LMC, you could still have those players playing with their counties as well.

You don't want something too contrived when it comes to amalgamations, you want a logical geographical unit that everyone can get behind. So just say you're from Derry, even though your county has finished hurling by June, you're province, and potentially some of you're very best hurlers, are hurling on through the summer on the big stage.
A big problem with the GAA, hurling specifically, is no matter how good you are, geography means you may never get to play at the top level, which ultimately kills interest in certain areas. Just say there's a 14 year old in Fermanagh who has the potential to be the next Shefflin. In the current system, we'll probably never get to see this kid at the top level, and he'd know that. If he had the option of playing at the top level with an Ulster team, he could have the chance to play at the highest level, and it would keep him hurling.

It could work especially well for an Ulster team. For Leinster, it could also work. Not sure how strong Connaught would be, but you never know until you try it out. I don't think putting Kerry in Connaught would be a good idea, maybe the concept could be expanded to have players from LMC counties who weren't picked for their respective county panels eligible for provincial call ups. But even if it just worked for Ulster, it'd be worth trying. When it comes to this sort of thing, maybe its better to not let great be the enemy of good.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 07/07/2012 18:19:55    1211592

Yeah a leinster and ulster team would be fairly strong, connaught no such much but i dont see why Kerry going in there would make anything awkward?

I think it could be three extra teams needed in the tournament. Id say shift Galway to munster, let them play there with also Ulster and Connaught Kerry. 8 Team shift, they would have the pick of two christy ring teams in Mayo and Kerry and also 2 nicky rackard teams, im sure with a good coach they would stand a chance against most if it was organised proper.

That would leave 9 counties in leinster including Antrim and Leinster, this would make for more interested watching and at the back door stage also.

I know if i was a hurling man from fermanagh or sligo id go for it, why wouldnt you want to see your work and volunteerism put to test against the likes of clar or tipp? Kilkenny or Dublin? Through time this would generate a lot more interest.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 07/07/2012 18:39:59    1211599

North Side Gael
County: All

Yeah a leinster and ulster team would be fairly strong, connaught no such much but i dont see why Kerry going in there would make anything awkward?
-----------------------------------------------

Because Kerry isn't in Connaught, it'd just be cobbling togehter a team for the sake of it, rather than a team that people would have an affinity with it. Would Kerry people have the same affinity with a Connaught team that Derry or Armagh people would have with an Ulster one? Put it this way, I think even if there were no Tyrone players on an Ulster hurling panel, Tyrone hurling people would still be more likely to follow and Ulster hurling team. I couldn't see the same thing happening with Kerry (or any non-Connaught county) if none of their players were on a Connaught team. If rugbys recent popularity has shown us anything, its that people can still get behind a provincial team.

That said, I'd concede its very difficult to get this model to fit everyone, and the situation with Kerry and Munster would be hard to figure out. Hence the suggestion that players not picked for their counties panel that year could be eligable for their provincial side. So you could have a Munster team of Kerry players, and players from other Munster counties who were not picked for their counties panel that year. But thats getting things convoluted, and you want to keep things as simple and logical as possible for it to succeed. Thats what I meant by not letting great be the enemy of good. If it only worked for an Ulster team, it'd be worth trying that out first, then revisiting the other provinces as things progress

Incidentally, I think its great people are making these suggestions, regardless of whether I think they'll work or not. The more that happens, the more likely change (for the better) will occur

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 07/07/2012 19:06:52    1211610

Yeah Marlon could they not be called western gaels or something then? or simply connaught/kerry?

Surely theres a way to include them in such a set up.

North Side Gael (None) - Posts: 1076 - 08/07/2012 08:12:39    1211781