National Forum

The Talent Drain

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To himachechy:  "A Dub giving out about other counties funding!! Shaky ground there.

Few factors on the rural club decline
1) National East / west divide - This is very real and is going to get worse. No National special strategy or regional developmental strategy of any substance. Not much GAA can do about that though. Any jobs that do trickle down to the county go to the big towns...which leads to

2) People want to live in towns - Cultural change. More people don't want to live in the back of beyond than before. They want to be close services etc (I'm thinking Tralee, castlebar type of thing, not even the bigger regional cities)

3) People are having less kids - Cultural change. The Kerry man above talking about the u12 parish league. All the families probably had 4/5/6 kids. Average now is more like 2 or 3

GAA needs to get a policy on club size. Waste of time having huge town clubs (or counties) if the rest cannot compete. Need more clubs in the towns to provide football for the population and stop any club / county getting too large with too many resources"
I wouldnt leave Dublin out of the firing line either mate, but that has been done to death.

If you take Dublin and Kerrys funding mate, its very similar proportionally to population, both are getting about about 30-35% beyond their population base. I suppose i just bring it up and had a look at it as Kingdom Boy mentioned about Kerry not getting handouts. Im not saying Dublin are underfunded in anyway in fact in comparison to every county bar Kerry we are likely over funded. It certainly seems that the GAA want to keep the razzmatazz of a strong Dublin Vs Kerry fixture.

Dublin in the way the funding is so dramatically out of proportion given the population creates a smoke screen effect of equity i think, amongst other counties, Kerry i think have gone under the radar in terms of funding because of this, my comparison with Mayo, Galway and Donegal and Kerry is just illustrating this disparity in response to Breff and KB's posts. Kerry certainly are one of the most well funded couunties, the reason for this seem unclear.

In truth Dublin and Kerry are massively over funded in comparison to many other counties. How much Kerry are actually over funded has surprised me proportionally.

I would be open minded to both counties taking a cut in there funding for greater equity, Dublin and Kerrys figures in comparison to Galway, Mayo, Donegal and Down are indefensible.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 18/05/2017 12:09:45    1987879

Link

Replying To himachechy:  "A Dub giving out about other counties funding!! Shaky ground there.

Few factors on the rural club decline
1) National East / west divide - This is very real and is going to get worse. No National special strategy or regional developmental strategy of any substance. Not much GAA can do about that though. Any jobs that do trickle down to the county go to the big towns...which leads to

2) People want to live in towns - Cultural change. More people don't want to live in the back of beyond than before. They want to be close services etc (I'm thinking Tralee, castlebar type of thing, not even the bigger regional cities)

3) People are having less kids - Cultural change. The Kerry man above talking about the u12 parish league. All the families probably had 4/5/6 kids. Average now is more like 2 or 3

GAA needs to get a policy on club size. Waste of time having huge town clubs (or counties) if the rest cannot compete. Need more clubs in the towns to provide football for the population and stop any club / county getting too large with too many resources"
All valid points. It is no coincidence in Mayo for example that Castlebar is dominating and the like of Breaffy (practically a suburb of Castlebar), Ballintubber (near Castlebar), Westport, Claremorris are all doing well. While the structures were put in place in those clubs, the population of kids is there to sustain them.

Then you have rural clubs barely keeping their head above water and joining up. Hollymount/Carramore, Garrymore/Kilmaine etc.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 18/05/2017 12:17:09    1987882

Link

Replying To TheUsername:  "Some brilliant points in this thread, what is also very telling is development funding per population, if we took Donegal, Mayo and Kerry as representative examples for reasons of: recent relative success to each other, issues with migration, fielding club junior teams, rural location and falling population, the figures seem a bit skewed and massively in favour of Kerry:

County-----Population------Funding

Mayo------130.425-----------113.948k

Kerry------147.554-----------197.600k

Donegal--158.755-----------110.119k

I wonder what the rationale for that is? Kerry are the fourth best funded team in the country, before you take into account the infrastructure grants of millions by the GAA and Munster Council for the center of excellence (other counties of course have got similar grants for projects).

To put in context Kerrys funding is just over 30% beyond their population, interestingly that is around the same percentage as Dublin who get the lions share of funding proportionally to population.

Kerry certainly are a well funded county and are in a far better position of being financially supported by the GAA to be successful then other counties with the same issues and make up. I think both Kindomboy and Breff have made goods points, rural migration i would imagine is an issue, but Kerry are one of the most well funded counties (4th) in the country and there seems no distinguishing factor as to why this is in comparison to similar counties in Mayo or Donegal.

Just to illustrate the disparity some more Galway as a relatively successful duel county get 50k less then Kerry in development funding."
If these numbers are true and I have no reason to believe they're not then there is a major disparity in the funding that we get compared to Mayo and Donegal considering we are 3 very similar counties in size and population .

I can't explain it but maybe there is someone who can?
I would have no problem with us getting less if the money is distributed fairly.

Speaking of fairness and in the interest of keeping things balanced can you give the names of the top 3 counties and their population and how much funding they get please?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/05/2017 14:15:40    1987956

Link

Replying To yew_tree:  "All valid points. It is no coincidence in Mayo for example that Castlebar is dominating and the like of Breaffy (practically a suburb of Castlebar), Ballintubber (near Castlebar), Westport, Claremorris are all doing well. While the structures were put in place in those clubs, the population of kids is there to sustain them.

Then you have rural clubs barely keeping their head above water and joining up. Hollymount/Carramore, Garrymore/Kilmaine etc."
But Yew Tree, when I was playing for Castlebar over a decade ago, Mitchels had gone over a decade without a county senior title, and had actually been relegated to intermediate. Westport were struggling, Ballintubber were also intermediate, Claremorris were going nowhere. The big powers in senior club football were the North Mayo clubs- Ballina, Cross, Knockmore, Charlestown. Back then, most of the players on the county panel came from North Mayo clubs, with West Mayo not really getting a look in.

If the clubs you listed are successful at the mo, it's because they've been achieving things at underage. Maybe the gap between themselves and the rural clubs has been exacerbated by the economic situation, but even then, town teams lose players too, though I suppose they'd be less affected by losing one or two here and there. Many fellas who would have been expected to backbone Castlebar's team over the past ten years ended up abroad.

The point I'm trying to make-admittedly in a very roundabout fashion- is that town teams and the clubs in their hinterland have always been very strong: one only needs to look at the senior club roll of honour to see that. The balance of power is often cyclical. The issue for the county board will probably be trying to keep the gaps between the town and country clubs from widening if anything.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 18/05/2017 15:00:14    1987982

Link

Replying To Gleebo:  "But Yew Tree, when I was playing for Castlebar over a decade ago, Mitchels had gone over a decade without a county senior title, and had actually been relegated to intermediate. Westport were struggling, Ballintubber were also intermediate, Claremorris were going nowhere. The big powers in senior club football were the North Mayo clubs- Ballina, Cross, Knockmore, Charlestown. Back then, most of the players on the county panel came from North Mayo clubs, with West Mayo not really getting a look in.

If the clubs you listed are successful at the mo, it's because they've been achieving things at underage. Maybe the gap between themselves and the rural clubs has been exacerbated by the economic situation, but even then, town teams lose players too, though I suppose they'd be less affected by losing one or two here and there. Many fellas who would have been expected to backbone Castlebar's team over the past ten years ended up abroad.

The point I'm trying to make-admittedly in a very roundabout fashion- is that town teams and the clubs in their hinterland have always been very strong: one only needs to look at the senior club roll of honour to see that. The balance of power is often cyclical. The issue for the county board will probably be trying to keep the gaps between the town and country clubs from widening if anything."
All valid but you now have an issue where by those returning home from Australia or wherever being unable to build on their parents land or get a site locally so they are moving into the nearest big town. The building will start up again but it will be in towns. It will be an issue that gets worse.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 18/05/2017 15:30:44    1987990

Link

Replying To TheUsername:  "Some brilliant points in this thread, what is also very telling is development funding per population, if we took Donegal, Mayo and Kerry as representative examples for reasons of: recent relative success to each other, issues with migration, fielding club junior teams, rural location and falling population, the figures seem a bit skewed and massively in favour of Kerry:

County-----Population------Funding

Mayo------130.425-----------113.948k

Kerry------147.554-----------197.600k

Donegal--158.755-----------110.119k

I wonder what the rationale for that is? Kerry are the fourth best funded team in the country, before you take into account the infrastructure grants of millions by the GAA and Munster Council for the center of excellence (other counties of course have got similar grants for projects).

To put in context Kerrys funding is just over 30% beyond their population, interestingly that is around the same percentage as Dublin who get the lions share of funding proportionally to population.

Kerry certainly are a well funded county and are in a far better position of being financially supported by the GAA to be successful then other counties with the same issues and make up. I think both Kindomboy and Breff have made goods points, rural migration i would imagine is an issue, but Kerry are one of the most well funded counties (4th) in the country and there seems no distinguishing factor as to why this is in comparison to similar counties in Mayo or Donegal.

Just to illustrate the disparity some more Galway as a relatively successful duel county get 50k less then Kerry in development funding."
Could you please give a link to that €197k figure - I'm dubious to say the least

link this and many other tweets from Shane Mangan on Twitter shows we are amongst the lowest funded county per capita, lower than Mayo & Donegal albeit all 3 are very close together at the bottom

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 18/05/2017 15:37:34    1987994

Link

Could you please give a link to that €197k figure - I'm dubious to say the least

link this and many other tweets from Shane Mangan on Twitter shows we are amongst the lowest funded county per capita, lower than Mayo & Donegal albeit all 3 are very close together at the bottom

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:223 - 18/05/2017

The heading at the top of that image states that those amounts are per registered player.

Dublin has the highest population so naturally would have more registered players than other counties.

Counties with lower populations are more likely to have less registered players.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 18/05/2017 16:22:15    1988019

Link

OK but I want evidence of this 197k figure, we wouldn't have received that from Croke Park in funding the last 4 years combined - we usually get between 40-45k per annum

Also those figures I gave take population out of the equation , those are entirely per capita figures. Leitrim, Sligo, Longford to name a few receive much higher than we do and I fully support the idea that the smaller, less resourced counties should receive more than we do per capita to try and make the game more competitive as a whole

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 18/05/2017 18:47:25    1988065

Link

Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "Could you please give a link to that €197k figure - I'm dubious to say the least

link this and many other tweets from Shane Mangan on Twitter shows we are amongst the lowest funded county per capita, lower than Mayo & Donegal albeit all 3 are very close together at the bottom"
Sorry mate,

Here you go.

http://www.the42.ie/gaa-dublin-funding-3217517-Feb2017/

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 18/05/2017 19:01:43    1988069

Link

Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "OK but I want evidence of this 197k figure, we wouldn't have received that from Croke Park in funding the last 4 years combined - we usually get between 40-45k per annum

Also those figures I gave take population out of the equation , those are entirely per capita figures. Leitrim, Sligo, Longford to name a few receive much higher than we do and I fully support the idea that the smaller, less resourced counties should receive more than we do per capita to try and make the game more competitive as a whole"
Sorry mate, the difficulty with the figures you are working off is that its per captia of already registered players. As in the figures arent worth anything because, the players are already playing the game, they dont need games development money. Population and undeveloped potential to grow the game is the purpose of the development money.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 18/05/2017 19:06:00    1988072

Link

Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "If these numbers are true and I have no reason to believe they're not then there is a major disparity in the funding that we get compared to Mayo and Donegal considering we are 3 very similar counties in size and population .

I can't explain it but maybe there is someone who can?
I would have no problem with us getting less if the money is distributed fairly.

Speaking of fairness and in the interest of keeping things balanced can you give the names of the top 3 counties and their population and how much funding they get please?"
Im not having a pop at Kerry mate, i just had a look at the funding Vs Population when yourself and Bref were ding donging. Kerry are actually fifth as opposed to fourt, source:

http://www.the42.ie/gaa-dublin-funding-3217517-Feb2017/

Population figures from the last census.

County Breakdown of Games Development Funding in 2016

County D.F.2016---------------Population
Dublin - €1.463,400-------------1.345.402
Cork - €249,000------------------542.196
Offaly - €220,669----------------78.003
Derry - €210,800-----------------247,132
Kerry - €197,600-----------------147,554
Meath - €187,600---------------194,942
Tipperary - €183,800----------160,441
Laois - €182,000-----------------84,732
Kildare - €179,800--------------222,130
Carlow - €178,800--------------56,875
Wicklow - €167,000------------142,332
Antrim - €164,400--------------618,108
Westmeath - €160,601-------88,396
Limerick - €158,800-----------195,175
Waterford - €158,800--------116,401
Wexford - €155,800-----------149,605
Clare - €152,400----------------118,627
Roscommon - €144,748-----64,436
Leitrim - €131,498------------31,972
Donegal - €130,200----------158,755
Galway - €130,204------------258,552
Mayo - €129,886--------------130,425
Cavan - €129,000-------------76,092
Sligo - €127,854---------------65,357
Longford - €126,500-------- 40,810
Louth - €122,700-------------128,375
Monaghan - €121,000-----61,273
Tyrone - €119,000-----------179,000
Down - €112,600-----------531,665
Armagh - €110,200---------174,792
Fermanagh - €109,000-----61,170
Kilkenny - €108,600--------99,118

I did the whole country just for objective review. A couple of trends noticed, Leinster is really being fattend up with funds, and it seems like there a couple of anointed counties in every province for what ever reason, some traditionally non successful counties are being given traditional funds which is fair enough and can be disregarded.

What is striking though is the funding comparison Vs population between Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal and Tyrone. There are many a thread on here listing these as contenders for Sam and tthe same counties shave all done well at minor and U21 since the turn of the decade. Yet the percentage gap in development funding and population is stark. Dublin and Kerry are fattened up at high percentages over their populations, and Donegal, Mayo and Tyrone doing well to break even or pound for pound in to minus percentages in population.

Maybe this model is open to critique or there is more context, but it is stark reading in terms of halves and have nots, also the disparity between provinces.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 18/05/2017 19:36:28    1988082

Link

Well I checked the 2016 GAA financial statement and those numbers are indeed correct for 2016 and to be honest I haven't a clue how we got that much for 2016. It's totally out of kilter what we received in 2015 (€42.6k) and 2010-14 (the twitter link) I agree we shouldn't get the 4th highest funding amount but going on the last 7 years its the outlier figure rather than the trend

With respect to population you cant just justify your funding because of your massive population simply because there is a far greater % involved in GAA in the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tipp, KK than there ever will be in Dublin

Obviously there are far more sports in Dublin with big numbers at youth level - you can't count these as many of them would never play Football or Hurling in their whole lives it'd be like FIFA or the IAAF giving China/India way more funding than UK,USA, France just for the simple reason of population without taking into account of the amount of people who partake in the sport.

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 18/05/2017 19:53:20    1988087

Link

Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "Well I checked the 2016 GAA financial statement and those numbers are indeed correct for 2016 and to be honest I haven't a clue how we got that much for 2016. It's totally out of kilter what we received in 2015 (€42.6k) and 2010-14 (the twitter link) I agree we shouldn't get the 4th highest funding amount but going on the last 7 years its the outlier figure rather than the trend

With respect to population you cant just justify your funding because of your massive population simply because there is a far greater % involved in GAA in the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tipp, KK than there ever will be in Dublin

Obviously there are far more sports in Dublin with big numbers at youth level - you can't count these as many of them would never play Football or Hurling in their whole lives it'd be like FIFA or the IAAF giving China/India way more funding than UK,USA, France just for the simple reason of population without taking into account of the amount of people who partake in the sport."
I suppose im not really interested in the Dublin funding debate mate its been done to death Dublin are very well funded, there is an argument there that Kerry are better funded but i dont have the will to make it, a Dublin Vs Kerry thing wasnt my point really.

I was just surprised at how much development funding Kerry are given proportionally and the narrative around funding generally and KB'S and Breff arguements on have and have nots. Kerry are very very well funded, more so then their rivals in Mayo, Donegal and Tyrone.

You are wrong on your historic figures as well, Kerry's developemnt funding has been pretty static for a while now, for example here are the figures from 2014:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-faces-cuts-as-gaa-plans-big-financial-revamp-30683408.html


I suppose it is also worth mentioning that a pot of: €566,007 is distributed amongst the six teams in Munster by the Minster council in addition to the games development funding, so Kerry funding is likely to exceed the above figure. Leinster get €822,961 but Dublin are excluded.

Like i said this isnt about Dublin or Kerry but your point, on Dublin population not playing GAA, thats the point of development funding to attract people into the game.

Again to keep on topic, there is a lot of finance and Kerry pound for population are one of the most well funded teams in the country, both Dublin and Kerry are massively overfunded in comparison to other rivals or counties with similar populations.

Where your falling down mate, is the twitter stuff your posting is pie in the sky. You may as well be posting figures on how many mechanics are in the country and its relevence to GAA development funding.

The funding doesnt go to registered club memebers, the innitives are used to grow GAA in regions nationwide. For example here is a report of games development for 2015 and how the money is spent. It has nothing to do with registered memebrs of the GAA, http://www.gaa.ie/mm/Document/MyGAA/Gettinginvolved/12/65/29/GamesDevelopmentAnnualReport2015_Neutral.pdf

So to keep on topic, Kerry are comparatively well resourced, you couldnt say they are punching above their weight given their comparative funding, to rivals like Mayo, Donegal or Galway.

Its an interesting debate, encompassing funding, population, equity and success in terms of the "talent drain".

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 18/05/2017 21:34:33    1988128

Link