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Replying To Whammo86: "That's probably going to happen in any system with an increased number of games. The strongest teams will be more likely to succeed.
I think there's a good system to keep the provincials knockout while still having a group stage replacing the qualifiers.
3 groups of 4, top 2 in each group into knockout round.
Those 6 are joined by the Provincial champions. If the Provincial champions are qualified from the group they get a bye to the semifinals otherwise they play in the quarterfinals.
Bottom from each group into relegation playoffs.
8,8,7 in the tiers below." That could work rather well. Ideally, I like 2 home/ 2 away of actual proposal although I do not like the bye feature. To overcome, you could have 4 in one group v 4 in the other.
This could work well in football - Keep AI SF Prov Champ rotation (e.g. Muns v Conn in 2017) and use A and B side of Prov Draw to pair up the out-of-cycle rotations (e.g. in 2017, A has Lein 6/Muns 2 and Uls 5/Conn 3 (prior yr cycle); and B has Lein 5/Conn 3 and Uls 4/Muns 4 (next yr cycle). Each 8 could be built incorporating the Prov SF/QF results - and ultimately, the 8 quartets each produce a Prov Finalist. The 4 Prov Finals are 'bonus' matches where the participants can earn an extra win in a 5th match (all unique AvB).
After all have played 4 group matches (8 Finalists with 5), top 2 from each section could contest KO Rd of 16.
Maybe there is a way to avoid Div 1v4 matchups in the Prov/Group stage as well.
What do you think ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 12/06/2017 00:53:49
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From what I can gather, the plan is to play off these extra games in 4/5 weeks, then have the provincial finals. Most of the championship will still have been played off by early July, and the proposed balancing out of hurling and football games in the peak summer months will not actually happen.
But apart from that, it'd be a harsh schedule. If they want to implement these changes, and have these extra games, then they have to push back the provincial finals, AI QFs, semis, and final. Remember, they've already committed to having the AI hurling championship finished by early August (haven't they?). But can that really happen with these proposals? They have to pick a lane here.
If all this goes ahead with the suspected (worst case scenario) schedule, I'd nearly prefer Tipperary to be play in the provincial qualifier group rather the Munster Championship, honestly, if we want to win All Irelands. If we have to play Clare, Limerick, Waterford, and Cork in as many weeks, then play a final (and then have to play a quarter-final if we lose), we'll in flitters when it comes to playing a quarter-final. As amazing as these guys are, they're not professionals. Playing the top teams in the country 5 times in 6 weeks could be too much, for any team, injuries would mount up. if they want this to happen, schedule has to be expanded, somehow.
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 12/06/2017 21:25:11
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According to the Irish Times, it's the development counties who were looking for alterations when Central Council met yesterday, June 17th. Counties will be allowed submit amendments for a month before a Special Congress in the Autumn.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 18/06/2017 21:01:22
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How "minor" is minor with regard to the tweaks allowed ?
Personally, like the football changes, in hurling I would also have liked an All-Ireland inter-prov group stage sandwiched between the initial KO Prov Championships and concluding KO AI matches.
As I proposed before, I would have the 5 teams in Group A (3 one prov, 2 the other) play the 5 in Group B. The groups could be created (not drawn) as the Prov KO games unfold - put one team in one group and their opponents in the other.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 20/06/2017 15:03:01
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I suppose the biggest change we will see is that the Top 2 from the Qualifier section will each advance to play a 3rd placed county from Muns and Lein.
Why not have the 4th tier champ (C Ring Cup) brought in as well - playing 2nd in Qual rd group.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 26/06/2017 04:27:27
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "This is a potentially interesting structure although the full details haven't been published yet. In its simplest form it looks like a group of five in both Leinster and Munster with the top three in each qualifying for the knockout phase. The top two in each would play off in the respective provincial finals with the two winners going directly to the All Ireland semi-finals.
But it will demand a significant mind shift in what's acceptable in terms of the win-loss record for an All Ireland champion. Before 1997 the Champion had to have won all matches. Since then it has become possible to win after losing one match and that has become acceptable (in theory a team from the current Leinster qualifier group could win the All Ireland having lost three matches but that's not likely to happen).
However, in this new structure the following is possible: In a group of five teams there are ten matches and so twenty league points to be won. If the top team wins all their matches then they get 8 leaving 12 between the other four teams. They could split them evenly meaning 3 each so the table for the Munster championship could, for example, finish as:
Tipperary 8 points
Clare 3
Waterford 3
Cork 3
Limerick 3
The four teams on 3 points would be separated by scoring difference. Clare could get those 3 points by having lost to Tipperary and Waterford, beaten Cork and drawn with Limerick. Say Clare now lost to Tipperary in the Munster final and then won their All Ireland quarter-final, semi-final and final their record would be: Won 4 Lost 3 Drawn 1.
Say they had beaten Tipperary in the All Ireland final (that would be a possible pairing as they'd be on opposite sides of the draw). That would have been their third meeting (with Tipp having won two) and Tipp's overall record would be: Won 6 Lost 1.
Would doubt be cast over the legitimacy of Clare's All Ireland? Almost certainly so meaning a new mindset is going to be needed and acceptance of possibilities such as this." Interestingly, something similar to this scenario could well happen in this year's Camogie Senior Championship Group 2. The table stands as (3 points for a win):
Cork 12
Wexford 6
Offaly 3
Limerick 3
Tipp 0
Cork have played all four matches - the others have one match each left. If Tipperary beat Offaly by at least 3 points and Limerick lose to Wexford then Tipp will qualify having lost three matches. I'd predict a serious outcry if this were to happen in the hurling championship.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 96 - 17/07/2017 00:56:44
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "Interestingly, something similar to this scenario could well happen in this year's Camogie Senior Championship Group 2. The table stands as (3 points for a win):
Cork 12
Wexford 6
Offaly 3
Limerick 3
Tipp 0
Cork have played all four matches - the others have one match each left. If Tipperary beat Offaly by at least 3 points and Limerick lose to Wexford then Tipp will qualify having lost three matches. I'd predict a serious outcry if this were to happen in the hurling championship." I don't think there would be a serious outcry at all. It would take a bit of getting used to but in the end people would embrace it. In a round robin /league system it will happen at some stage that the team that wins the final will have lost 1, 2, maybe 3 games along the way. If Man Utd were to win the Premiership some year having suffered 10 defeats along the way, would it take away from their achievement? Not at all...they would still be worthy champions, having won the games that mattered and finished ahead of all the rest. They would not get the accolade of great champions but it could not be denied that they were still worthy champions in that particular year. They'll be no outcry if Tipp win the camogie this year having lost 2 or 3 games along the way and there will be no outcry if something like that occurs in hurling in a revised championship structure sometime in the future.
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1902 - 17/07/2017 10:33:50
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "I don't think there would be a serious outcry at all. It would take a bit of getting used to but in the end people would embrace it. In a round robin /league system it will happen at some stage that the team that wins the final will have lost 1, 2, maybe 3 games along the way. If Man Utd were to win the Premiership some year having suffered 10 defeats along the way, would it take away from their achievement? Not at all...they would still be worthy champions, having won the games that mattered and finished ahead of all the rest. They would not get the accolade of great champions but it could not be denied that they were still worthy champions in that particular year. They'll be no outcry if Tipp win the camogie this year having lost 2 or 3 games along the way and there will be no outcry if something like that occurs in hurling in a revised championship structure sometime in the future." I take the point but am not so sure. It's taken 20 years of the back door to make it acceptable for a champion to have lost one match. This isn't a premier league type competition - it's evolving to become more akin to the soccer World Cup or Champions League. I think it might be accepted if one of the lesser lights wins by this route having lost three matches but if it were one of the traditionally stronger counties (e.g. Tipp hurlers say having lost to Limerick, Waterford and Clare but still qualifying by beating Cork) I think there would be a negative reaction, certainly initially at least.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 96 - 17/07/2017 16:54:47
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Replying To Whammo86: "That's probably going to happen in any system with an increased number of games. The strongest teams will be more likely to succeed.
I think there's a good system to keep the provincials knockout while still having a group stage replacing the qualifiers.
3 groups of 4, top 2 in each group into knockout round.
Those 6 are joined by the Provincial champions. If the Provincial champions are qualified from the group they get a bye to the semifinals otherwise they play in the quarterfinals.
Bottom from each group into relegation playoffs.
8,8,7 in the tiers below." Along the same lines, that double stream might work well in AI SFC also -
1) NFL determines top 4 in each Prov, who then enter restricted Prov KO SFs - 4 Champs to AI KO Last 16.
2) Other 16 play 4 KO rds for P O Se Cup - 1 Champ to AI KO Last 16.
3) Prov SF 16 also drawn to 4 groups of 4 (1 from each Prov) - 8 group winners to AI KO Last 16.
4) P O Se 16 also drawn to 4 pools of 4 (1 from each quarter of POS draw) - 4 group winners to AI KO Last 16.
5) Best 3 2nd placed from 4 groups/ 4 pools - 3 teams complete AI KO 16.
6) Any of 5 Prov and POS Champs get bye to AI QFs, if qualifying from group stream as well.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 18/07/2017 04:17:28
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the new hurling structure is a disaster,makes a mockery of the clubs,means the chances of a one-off shock are gone.
it will end my involvement with hurling.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 18/07/2017 12:33:09
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Threw this up on Boards yesterday, said I'd throw it up here.
I would restructure the whole hurling calendar if I could and go with this.
-Provincial Championships would be part of a separate Cup competition run alongside the National League, alternating weekly between League and Cup. Open Draw for the Provinces. All games finish on the day, extra time and 1v1 penalties to decide games if necessary.
-National Hurling League Structure - Three 8 Team Leagues (Division 4A is 6 Teams, play each other once, 4B is 4 teams, play each other twice), 2 up, 2 down for each Division. No final, top team are league champions.
-All-Ireland Championships would be group based, and based around the final rankings of the National League.
Liam McCarthy Cup -
- 12 teams (all 8 teams from Division 1, and top four sides of Division 2), split into 3 groups of 4.
- Seeding for group draws would be; Pot1 (1, 2 & 3 of Division 1), Pot2 (4, 5 & 6 of Division 1) and Pot3 (7 & 8 of Division 1 and 1, 2 , 3 & 4 of Division 2).
- Three games for each county, 1 home, 1 away, 1 neutral venue.
- Top of each group and best placed second go into Pot1 of QF draw.
- Remaining two second placed sides and two best placed third sides into Pot2 of QF Draw.
- Pot1 drawn against Pot2 in All-Ireland QF.
- All knockout games finish on the day, except for AI Final.
Christy Ring Cup -
- 8 Teams (bottom 4 teams of Division 2, top four sides of Division 3), split into two groups of four.
- Seeding for the groups would be; Pot1 (5, 6 & 7 of Division 2, and Division 3 top side (reward for promotion)) and Pot2 (Division 2 bottom side, and 2, 3 7 4 of Division 3).
- Top side plays second of opposite Group in SF.
Nicky Rackard Cup -
- 8 Teams (bottom 4 teams of Division 3, top four sides of Division 4A), split into two groups of four.
- Seeding for the groups would be; Pot1 (5, 6 & 7 of Division 3, and Division 4A top side (reward for promotion)) and Pot2 (Division 3 bottom side, and 2, 3 & 4 of Division 4A).
- Top side plays second of opposite Group in SF.
Lory Meagher Cup -
- 6 Teams (bottom 2 teams from 4A, all four 4B teams), split into two groups of three.
- Top side in each group would play each other in final.
The reason for the National League and Cup being played in the first half of the year, and the group based championship in the second half of the year would be to have a definite calendar structure to allow for club games. Hypothetically if it were to be applied to next year, here's how the structure would look in the calendar year (dates are Sunday's but denotes the weekend as a whole);
04/2/18 - NHL Round 1
11/2/18 - NHL Round 2
18/2/18 - NHL Round 3
25/2/18 - Cup Provincial QF's
04/3/18 - NHL Round 4
11/3/18 - Cup Provincial SF's
18/3/18 - NHL Round 5
25/3/18 - Cup Provincial Finals
01/4/18 - NHL Round 6
08/4/18 - Cup SF's
15/4/18 - NHL Round 7
22/4/18 - Cup Final
29/4/18 - Rest Week
06/5/18 - Club Week
13/5/18 - Rest Week
20/5/18 - Championship Group Phase Round 1
27/5/18 - Club Week
03/6/18 - Rest Week
10/6/18 - Championship Group Phase Round 2
17/6/18 - Club Week
24/6/18 - Rest Week
01/7/18 - Championship Group Phase Round 3
08/7/18 - Club Week
15/7/18 - Rest Week
22/7/18 - All-Ireland QF's (2 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday) - Christy Ring & Nicky Rackard SF's - Lory Meagher Final
29/7/18 - Club Week
05/8/18 - Rest Week
12/8/18 - All-Ireland SF's (1 on Saturday, 1 on Sunday) - Christy Ring & Nicky Rackard Finals
19/8/18 - Club Week
26/8/18 - Rest Week
02/9/18 - Rest Week
09/9/18 - All-Ireland Final
All four AIQF's would take place on the same weekend, as would both AISF's take place on the same weekend, to give all teams an even run at matches. The Saturday QF winners would play the Sunday SF, and vice versa.
Christy Ring & Nicky Rackard Finals to be played the same day as the SF's as curtain raisers.
dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 18/07/2017 12:59:53
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I have one serious issue with the proposed new hurling structure and think that it may become evident a few years down the line and people may start bringing it up more...
There are 6 teams still in the running for the all Ireland, the bookies odds have 4 munster teams in the top 5 positions in the odds to win it out. If we go through a phase where one province has stronger teams than another, then it can be harder to qualify for quarter final. If we take the example of clare and wexford, two provincial runners up this year. Clare would need to come out on top of one of Cork, Tipp and Waterford to qualify (not even mentioning Limerick who have a very strong underage base coming through), wexford would expect to qualify with Galway and Kilkenny (Dublin have been very poor this year). Supposing Clare and Limerick really pushed on next year (very plausible) and Dublin continued decline and wexford went back to last year's level, then there's a serious imbalance. I know that the imbalance would be there in the current system but in the current system, if you get beaten in the province, you are in a qualifier with an open draw which is the fairest way to do it.
It could go the other way and leinster could have more strong teams.
It is a potential anomaly of the system and whenever you're introducing a new system you need foresight and try to minimise potential anomalies.
I'm therefore against the proposed changes
pj_mcmanus (Limerick) - Posts: 431 - 18/07/2017 22:22:32
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Replying To pj_mcmanus: "I have one serious issue with the proposed new hurling structure and think that it may become evident a few years down the line and people may start bringing it up more...
There are 6 teams still in the running for the all Ireland, the bookies odds have 4 munster teams in the top 5 positions in the odds to win it out. If we go through a phase where one province has stronger teams than another, then it can be harder to qualify for quarter final. If we take the example of clare and wexford, two provincial runners up this year. Clare would need to come out on top of one of Cork, Tipp and Waterford to qualify (not even mentioning Limerick who have a very strong underage base coming through), wexford would expect to qualify with Galway and Kilkenny (Dublin have been very poor this year). Supposing Clare and Limerick really pushed on next year (very plausible) and Dublin continued decline and wexford went back to last year's level, then there's a serious imbalance. I know that the imbalance would be there in the current system but in the current system, if you get beaten in the province, you are in a qualifier with an open draw which is the fairest way to do it.
It could go the other way and leinster could have more strong teams.
It is a potential anomaly of the system and whenever you're introducing a new system you need foresight and try to minimise potential anomalies.
I'm therefore against the proposed changes" A fair point. However, there are two very important counter arguments to it;
- Regardless of the strength of teams in Leinster, if Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Cork or Tipp can't after 4 games finish at least 3rd out of 5 teams, then they can hardly complain about not progressing having not done enough themselves on the field of play.
- This system is being mooted instead of a later in competition Super 8 scenario primarily to retain the Munster Championship. If keeping the Munster Championship sacrosanct is the goal, then there can be no complaints to teams in Leinster having, on paper, and easier chance to progress to the latter stages as avoiding the open draw, or Super 8, was done in the interests of the Munster Championship teams in the first place.
dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 19/07/2017 09:03:29
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To keep Prov KO and a mixed Prov AI group phase -
1) Put Lein QF winner in Group X and their Prov SF/QF opponents in Group Y.
2) Put Muns QF winner in Group Y and their SF/QF opponents in Group X.
3) Finally, place the other two Prov Finalists in the group opposite their Final/SF opponents.
4) Complete group play - all 5 in X play all 5 in Y.
5) Top 3 in X form one half of AI KO draw (1st v QF winner 2nd or 3rd) - Y forms other half.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 19/07/2017 14:41:26
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Replying To dblackandamber: "A fair point. However, there are two very important counter arguments to it;
- Regardless of the strength of teams in Leinster, if Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Cork or Tipp can't after 4 games finish at least 3rd out of 5 teams, then they can hardly complain about not progressing having not done enough themselves on the field of play.
- This system is being mooted instead of a later in competition Super 8 scenario primarily to retain the Munster Championship. If keeping the Munster Championship sacrosanct is the goal, then there can be no complaints to teams in Leinster having, on paper, and easier chance to progress to the latter stages as avoiding the open draw, or Super 8, was done in the interests of the Munster Championship teams in the first place." Do you have any sources to back up your assertion that the reason we're being lumbered with this new structure, instead of getting a super-8, is to maintain the Munster championship? We'd still have a Munster championship, even with a super 8 (just like football will.)
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 19/07/2017 16:42:29
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "Do you have any sources to back up your assertion that the reason we're being lumbered with this new structure, instead of getting a super-8, is to maintain the Munster championship? We'd still have a Munster championship, even with a super 8 (just like football will.)" My assertions would be backed up by continuous suggestions from many commentators in different types of media that any changes to the hurling championship would have to maintain the provincial championships in some format so as to maintain the Munster hurling championship, not least due to the fact that the Munster hurling final is a genuine special sporting occasion of the summer.
It would be extremely naïve to think that the current proposal is not based around maintaining the Munster Championship for the 5 Munster counties, given the fact that every other county in the country (including a Munster side) would be open to play in the opposing "provincial" championship if they made the grade.
Nothing wrong with it if it works. But my point to the OP was there's no use in anyone complaining about the "Leinster" side of the draw being easier if the structure of the championship is done in such a way as to separate the 5 Munster counties from the rest instead of an open draw championship.
dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 19/07/2017 17:14:52
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Replying To dblackandamber: "My assertions would be backed up by continuous suggestions from many commentators in different types of media that any changes to the hurling championship would have to maintain the provincial championships in some format so as to maintain the Munster hurling championship, not least due to the fact that the Munster hurling final is a genuine special sporting occasion of the summer.
It would be extremely naïve to think that the current proposal is not based around maintaining the Munster Championship for the 5 Munster counties, given the fact that every other county in the country (including a Munster side) would be open to play in the opposing "provincial" championship if they made the grade.
Nothing wrong with it if it works. But my point to the OP was there's no use in anyone complaining about the "Leinster" side of the draw being easier if the structure of the championship is done in such a way as to separate the 5 Munster counties from the rest instead of an open draw championship." I understand where you are coming from however proximity also plays a major part in the whole setup. I would put Galway in Munster and Waterford in Leinster and leave it at that. The roads in Ireland have improved by not crisscrossing the the country. As you have read, even though its not a bad road from Wexford to Cork most people in Wexford would not want to make it if they could. Ultimately the GAA has to what it normally does, which is in order to get something through create the least amount of disruption to the big teams. I have no truck for the Munster folk complaining its easier to come out of Leinster, its like the Ulster counties saying the same in Football. For years when Kilkenny were unstoppable I doubt if any of them would have wanted to be in Leinster. I think it will improve Leinster Hurling - sure there may be the odd bad beating but teams will know on a more regular basis where they have to get to. This is not supposed to be about one province over the other and I would say lets see how it goes as I think it can only help hurling overall.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1800 - 19/07/2017 17:52:01
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Replying To dblackandamber: "My assertions would be backed up by continuous suggestions from many commentators in different types of media that any changes to the hurling championship would have to maintain the provincial championships in some format so as to maintain the Munster hurling championship, not least due to the fact that the Munster hurling final is a genuine special sporting occasion of the summer.
It would be extremely naïve to think that the current proposal is not based around maintaining the Munster Championship for the 5 Munster counties, given the fact that every other county in the country (including a Munster side) would be open to play in the opposing "provincial" championship if they made the grade.
Nothing wrong with it if it works. But my point to the OP was there's no use in anyone complaining about the "Leinster" side of the draw being easier if the structure of the championship is done in such a way as to separate the 5 Munster counties from the rest instead of an open draw championship." You're initial assertion was this:
"This system is being mooted instead of a later in competition Super 8 scenario primarily to retain the Munster Championship. "
Where are you getting this? Do you have a source that says that the GAA hierarchy don't want a super-8 in hurling, because they don't want to abandon the Munster championship?
This is a proposal being put forward by the GAA, not 'commentators in different types of media'. And it has nothing to do with protecting the Munster championship, as it wouldn't even effect the Munster championship. If anything, it would be a way to present the facade or impression of making changes in hurling to keep up with football, while actually making sure these changes don't get in the way of the business end of the football championships fixture schedule, especially now the super-8 is a thing.
I love the Munster hurling championship, but I'd be ok with it being replaced with something else, if that something else was better, and benefited the wider hurling landscape. And I'd continue to complain if we end up with a lopsided championship, as pj_mcmanus suggested
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 19/07/2017 19:36:16
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What are your collective views on my idea of preserving Prov KOs and baking them into the gtoup phase above ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 19/07/2017 22:12:14
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "You're initial assertion was this:
"This system is being mooted instead of a later in competition Super 8 scenario primarily to retain the Munster Championship. "
Where are you getting this? Do you have a source that says that the GAA hierarchy don't want a super-8 in hurling, because they don't want to abandon the Munster championship?
This is a proposal being put forward by the GAA, not 'commentators in different types of media'. And it has nothing to do with protecting the Munster championship, as it wouldn't even effect the Munster championship. If anything, it would be a way to present the facade or impression of making changes in hurling to keep up with football, while actually making sure these changes don't get in the way of the business end of the football championships fixture schedule, especially now the super-8 is a thing.
I love the Munster hurling championship, but I'd be ok with it being replaced with something else, if that something else was better, and benefited the wider hurling landscape. And I'd continue to complain if we end up with a lopsided championship, as pj_mcmanus suggested" It certainly hasn't anything to do with protecting the integrity of the Leinster Championship, seeing as all 4 provinces can compete in it in some way or another. Anyone with any modicum of intelligence can see its a system designed to protect the provincial championships in some way, but seeing as Munster is the only actual self contained province now in hurling it would be childish not to have the view that maintaining the Munster Championship has played a key role in the proposed format.
And again, nothing wrong with that if it means more matches for everyone. All I was pointing out to the OP was that if Munster is kept separate from the rest, then there can be no complaints of a harder side of the draw from any Munster side that does not make the latter stages of the proposed format.
As for the sources. Well, I watch TV, listen to radio and read the papers. There have been plenty of pundits, journalists and others, usually from Munster counties I might add, that have said any changes to the hurling format should retain the provincial championships who then have gone on to say how special the Munster Championship is.
However if a source is required, here's one from this website - http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=271197
In it it states: Based on the feedback received, the CCCC established three obligations that must be met in formulating its proposals:
i.the retention of the provincial senior championships;
And another
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/ger-loughnane-make-munster-hurling-championship-round-robin-to-provide-more-games-370920.html
dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 20/07/2017 10:39:51
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