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New Proposed Hurling Structure

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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Funny that Tipp got hammered by Kerry in Football untold amount of times at all grades over the years yet there was never a mention of blockading them from competing in their own province When we got promoted from the Christy Ring the thought of us being able to compete in Munster after Round Robin was shot down instantly. Which meant we would have to travel away 100% to play likes of Kilkenny & Wexford if we got through past Round Robin stage" When we dragged ourselves up, started regularly beating ye in minor and under 21 ye went back to seeding the Munster championship. As Marlon pointed out ye left the Munster championship, the open Munster hurling championship that is, where the all-Ireland and Munster champions got drawn in the quarter finals this year. If that was the football championship we would have been seeded in our ivory tower, patiently waiting to see who would be worthy of playing us. Getting back to the structure it's complete BS full stop. With Kerry in the Leinster round robin they should be either let into the Munster proper or Leinster proper if they won the provincial qualifier group in Leinster. All that will happen now is we will lose the unseeded and brilliant Munster hurling championship to be replaced by a diluted version that won't appeal to fans until the Munster final. There was a big crowd at Tipp vs Cork and we won't see crowds like that again. All this will do is drag out the championship and have the same teams in the Munster final ever year without much surprise. The only good thing to come out of this mess is Galway will rightfully have two home games a season going forward. Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 07/06/2017 02:23:47 1996151 Link
Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Funny that Tipp got hammered by Kerry in Football untold amount of times at all grades over the years yet there was never a mention of blockading them from competing in their own province When we got promoted from the Christy Ring the thought of us being able to compete in Munster after Round Robin was shot down instantly. Which meant we would have to travel away 100% to play likes of Kilkenny & Wexford if we got through past Round Robin stage" What? Kerry were given the option to join Munster or Leinster round robin. Of course they chose Leinster, get a few games against teams at their level. Makes sense. They have come 3rd both times, so seem to have found their level. The Real 1944 (Carlow) - Posts: 1114 - 07/06/2017 03:55:49 1996153 Link
Having 2 groups of 5 is straightforward. The upstart qualifier counties are collectively a spanner in the works. One of the provincial groups should always have 6 teams. The 6th placed team should be relegated in place of the qualifier group winner. If Laois finish 6th in Leinster and Kerry win the qualifier group, Kerry should be promoted as the 6th team in Munster and Leinster will consist of 5 the following year. The 6th placed Munster team would be relegated the following year. The provincial qualifier group should consist of 4 teams playing each other both home and away over 6 rounds. The top team should be promoted as the 6th team in Munster or Leinster. The top 2 teams should both be granted a home quarter-final play-off against the provincial 3rd placed teams. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 07/06/2017 08:46:02 1996184 Link
Under the HDC's proposals, the third team in Munster and Leinster would play a Liam MacCarthy qualifier against the top two teams in Group C. The Group C winner would also be promoted to the top tier in Leinster for the following year. The Hurling Development Committee recommend the above in 2012. It is ludicrous that the GAA are tweaking it to only allow the top qualifier group county a quarter-final play-off. As I've already mentioned, if Kerry have to win a play-off for the Munster group, being in the top 2 should suffice as all other counties have automatic promotion if they win the group. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 07/06/2017 16:34:48 1996564 Link
I think it is a step forward, but again the club player might not be served too well with this new format. The thing is though a lot of club hurling (in Limerick at least) was still knockout up until 1993. Then in 1994 it went to a round robin format at Senior and now all the way down to Junior B is round robin. Those moves arguably helped skill levels rise and gave players more games. It makes sense to put it in there for three years then to tweak it as suits. slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 07/06/2017 17:50:32 1996593 Link
The provincial structure of 5 teams in a group should prove successful. There's a responsibility to fairly and properly include the qualifier group counties. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 07/06/2017 18:23:00 1996611 Link
Replying To CeachtPeile: "Interesting proposals that are a definite step forward but there are some problems/queries: 1. There is an imbalance between the provinces meaning that one or maybe two strong Munster teams are going to be eliminated with weaker Leinster teams going through. It means that the best six teams will not be in the knock out stages. This imbalance is recognised by the fact that direct relegation from the qualifier group only happens for Leinster teams. 2. There's going to be a very limited number of games between teams from different provinces. This was one of the benefits of the qualifiers that plenty of these games, giving novel pairings, could occur. 3. Meath are hard done by by being automatically relegated with the losing Ring finalist being promoted. Surely a play off between those two would be fairer. 3. Why are there no semi-finals in the Ring and Rackard cups? With only one team qualifying from each group, it means potentially far more dead rubbers. It would be much better to have two qualifying from each group. 4. Why have Sligo been placed in the Rackard cup? They only came third in the Meagher cup this year and yet they're promoted whereas whichever team of Leitrim and Warwickshire loses the Meagher final won't be promoted. 5. Having only four teams in the Meagher completely devalues it. Would it not have been better to have had six teams in the Rackard and six in the Meagher with each playing five games, the top team getting to the final and second and third playing a semi-final. It's almost like they want to reduce the number of games played by the lower tier teams and finish their season as quickly as possible. 6. It's very odd that the minor and U21 championships are treated differently. Why not have Galway in Leinster for the minor?" 4. Why have Sligo been placed in the Rackard cup? They only came third in the Meagher cup this year and yet they're promoted whereas whichever team of Leitrim and Warwickshire loses the Meagher final won't be promoted. I figured it out. And it stinks a little of laziness in the end. First, the classification of teams in the proposal for 2018: Leinster: Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Munster: Clare, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford Qualifier group: Laois, Westmeath, Kerry, Antrim, Carlow Ring: Armagh, Derry, Down, Kildare, London, Mayo, Meath, Wicklow. Rackard: Donegal, Leitrim, or, Warwickshire, Longford, Louth, Monaghan, Roscommon, Sligo, Tyrone. Meagher: Cavan, Fermanagh, Lancashire and either Leitrim or Warwickshire. The changes from the way this is in 2016 are as follows: - Meath dropped down from the 2016 race for Sam (which contains 14 teams, not counting the Ring Cup winners) - Antrim and Carlow moved up from Ring to Sam (15 teams in the proposal, which causes a gap in that division) - Roscommon moved from Ring down to Rackard (lost relegation play-off to Mayo) - Armagh and Derry moved from Rackard up to Ring (two teams go up because of the gap above) - No teams moved from Rackard to Meagher (because Fingal withdrew from Ring, leaving it down to 7 teams) - Leitrim/Warwickshire (one of the top 2) and Sligo (3rd) (??!!) moved from Meagher to Rackard) Hope that clarifies things. So they got a little lazy in the end and must have figured out "Well if one of Leitrim or Warwickshire is going up, and we need to promote two things, the next best team must go up", or something. They really need to sit down and take as long as it needs to plot these things out, using pencil and several sheets of cross-lined A3 paper if necessary. Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 07/06/2017 20:09:40 1996646 Link
While I'm here, look at this: D.All-Ireland Semi Finals and Final 1. The Munster and Leinster champions will be kept apart in the semi-finals. 2. Provincial champions cannot meet the team they defeated in their provincial final in the All Ireland semi-final. Subject to the provisions of point 1 above, repeat pairings will be avoided in the All-Ireland semi finals. A draw will take place, if necessary, to avoid repeat pairings. 3. The All-Ireland semi-final winners will meet in the All-Ireland final 4... "A draw will take place to avoid repeat pairings." More crap. You don't use a draw to avoid repeat pairings; instead, you state "Team X vs Team Y is a repeat pairing and won't happen." And that takes care of that. In other words, if the Munster champions and Leinster champions have teams A and B as semi-final opponents, and Munster champions vs Team A is a repeat pairing, you don't have a draw; you just place Team A against the Leinster champions and place Team B against the Munster champions. If both Munster champions vs Team A and Munster champions vs Team B are repeat pairings, then you can have a draw. But it won't be to avoid a repeat pairing. Christ. Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 07/06/2017 20:10:35 1996647 Link
Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "While I'm here, look at this: D.All-Ireland Semi Finals and Final 1. The Munster and Leinster champions will be kept apart in the semi-finals. 2. Provincial champions cannot meet the team they defeated in their provincial final in the All Ireland semi-final. Subject to the provisions of point 1 above, repeat pairings will be avoided in the All-Ireland semi finals. A draw will take place, if necessary, to avoid repeat pairings. 3. The All-Ireland semi-final winners will meet in the All-Ireland final 4... "A draw will take place to avoid repeat pairings." More crap. You don't use a draw to avoid repeat pairings; instead, you state "Team X vs Team Y is a repeat pairing and won't happen." And that takes care of that. In other words, if the Munster champions and Leinster champions have teams A and B as semi-final opponents, and Munster champions vs Team A is a repeat pairing, you don't have a draw; you just place Team A against the Leinster champions and place Team B against the Munster champions. If both Munster champions vs Team A and Munster champions vs Team B are repeat pairings, then you can have a draw. But it won't be to avoid a repeat pairing. Christ. Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone." Very true, a draw can't be used to avoid repeat pairings, it'll just leave a repeat pairing up to chance. Another unfortunate example of the hurried slapdash way these proposals were put together. As legendzxix noted above, this is just a HDC proposal that was rejected a few years ago, with some tweaks added to make it look like a new idea. Except the "tweaks" don't make any sense, because they were just arbitrary, and not thought through. Genuinely, I want to be more positive about these changes. But the whole thing is just so cynical, I'm finding it hard to look on them generously. Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 07/06/2017 22:56:47 1996716 Link
Supporters of the top 9 should be pleased with the guarantee of two home championship games to look forward to. As a Kerry hurling supporter, the window of having to win the qualifier group seems too small. As the HDC fairly suggested, the top 2 qualifier counties should advance to the quarter-final play-offs. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 08/06/2017 09:02:24 1996767 Link
Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "While I'm here, look at this: D.All-Ireland Semi Finals and Final 1. The Munster and Leinster champions will be kept apart in the semi-finals. 2. Provincial champions cannot meet the team they defeated in their provincial final in the All Ireland semi-final. Subject to the provisions of point 1 above, repeat pairings will be avoided in the All-Ireland semi finals. A draw will take place, if necessary, to avoid repeat pairings. 3. The All-Ireland semi-final winners will meet in the All-Ireland final 4... "A draw will take place to avoid repeat pairings." More crap. You don't use a draw to avoid repeat pairings; instead, you state "Team X vs Team Y is a repeat pairing and won't happen." And that takes care of that. In other words, if the Munster champions and Leinster champions have teams A and B as semi-final opponents, and Munster champions vs Team A is a repeat pairing, you don't have a draw; you just place Team A against the Leinster champions and place Team B against the Munster champions. If both Munster champions vs Team A and Munster champions vs Team B are repeat pairings, then you can have a draw. But it won't be to avoid a repeat pairing. Christ. Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone." That would be too complicated. for them. Jeez you should know by now its not the Gaelic Algebra Association. ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 08/06/2017 10:12:33 1996796 Link
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=271329 Meath are the first to come out with fighting talk after the proposals were revealed. They are calling for a play-off against the Christy Ring runners-up and/or 6 counties being allowed participate in the qualifier group. Over to Laois and Westmeath to demand the top 2 teams in the group advance to the quarter-final play-offs. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 08/06/2017 10:49:36 1996818 Link
Wexford's win over Kilkenny is another reason why the new structure should not be allowed. Under this new proposed structure Tipp and Kilkenny would still be in contention for provincial honours. The new structure makes its harder for teams to make a breakthrough and makes it easier on the established teams to remain dominant. Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 11/06/2017 01:10:08 1997761 Link
Clare, Limerick and Wexford etc. will also benefit from 2 guaranteed home games and more championship minutes. No harm trialling it for 3 years. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 11/06/2017 10:12:37 1997805 Link
Replying To Killarney.87: "Wexford's win over Kilkenny is another reason why the new structure should not be allowed. Under this new proposed structure Tipp and Kilkenny would still be in contention for provincial honours. The new structure makes its harder for teams to make a breakthrough and makes it easier on the established teams to remain dominant." That's probably going to happen in any system with an increased number of games. The strongest teams will be more likely to succeed. I think there's a good system to keep the provincials knockout while still having a group stage replacing the qualifiers. 3 groups of 4, top 2 in each group into knockout round. Those 6 are joined by the Provincial champions. If the Provincial champions are qualified from the group they get a bye to the semifinals otherwise they play in the quarterfinals. Bottom from each group into relegation playoffs. 8,8,7 in the tiers below. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 11/06/2017 10:26:42 1997812 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Clare, Limerick and Wexford etc. will also benefit from 2 guaranteed home games and more championship minutes. No harm trialling it for 3 years." First of all, Clare can't play home games because Cusack Park isn't big enough for the Munster Championship, although the plans would probably reduce crowds to the sort of level where most of the games could be played there with capacity to spare, given that it would just become a glorified Munster Hurling League. Second, maybe they don't want change and are perfectly happy with the Munster Championship the way it is, there hasn't been anything wrong with it for the last 130 years, so why change it now. Perhaps if you ended your obsession with groups, which belong in the league, not anywhere near the serious end of the championship, you might be able to see that there are other options available, that don't involve making any changes to the parts of the championship that don't need changing. There is not one justifiable reason for changing the Munster Championship, especially not by introducing a group stage. expe (UK) - Posts: 31 - 11/06/2017 13:34:15 1997870 Link
Replying To Killarney.87: "Wexford's win over Kilkenny is another reason why the new structure should not be allowed. Under this new proposed structure Tipp and Kilkenny would still be in contention for provincial honours. The new structure makes its harder for teams to make a breakthrough and makes it easier on the established teams to remain dominant." KK would be lucky to get third placing in Leinster with the new format. ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 11/06/2017 14:06:26 1997879 Link
For 2018, I would like to have the Muns 5 and Lein 5 in mixed groups with the Provs staying as KO baked in. Put Muns QF winner in Group X and their Muns SF & QF opponents in Group Y; Put Lein QF winner in Y and their SF/QF opponents in X; and finally, place the two remaining Prov Finalists in the group opposite their Prov Final/SF opponents. Complete group schedule with 5 in X v 5 in Y. AI SFs has 1st in X v QF winner from 2nd v 3rd in X; and 1st in Y v 2nd or 3rd in Y. Could do similar for football - with 4 sections of 4 v 4, pairing a couple of Provs from the same half of the Prov Draw (e.g. 5 Lein and 3 Conn from A side of draw, and 5 Uls and 3 Conn from B side etc). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 11/06/2017 17:17:25 1997949 Link
Replying To ZUL10: "KK would be lucky to get third placing in Leinster with the new format." Ah now come on. They'd win both home games and that would probably be enough. I like the knockout element to the current Leinster and Munster championships. You don't see the GAA doing away with br Leinster football championship which is dead. Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 11/06/2017 18:58:45 1998007 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Supporters of the top 9 should be pleased with the guarantee of two home championship games to look forward to. As a Kerry hurling supporter, the window of having to win the qualifier group seems too small. As the HDC fairly suggested, the top 2 qualifier counties should advance to the quarter-final play-offs." Seriously ??? So we are putting teams that are in the bottom 6 in the competition on par with a group containing Tipp, Limerick, Cork, Clare, Waterford.......to b fair there is no equivalence there, I'm all for development but that is what league structures should be for ( and that's what should be done) not the championship PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 11/06/2017 19:11:32 1998018 Link