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It's been a couple years now and I don't think the black and yellow cards can coexist. Clearly some referees don't know the difference between the two. I do believe that the black card has helped cut down on cynical fouling. If we got rid of the black I don't think a yellow card is enough of a threat to keep players from committing cynical fouls. I think if we got rid of the yellow card and kept the black it would help keep players honest and take away the confusion for the referees. A red card offence is a red card, and everything else is a black card.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts: 16 - 27/08/2016 16:54:20
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Replying To DBo183: "It's been a couple years now and I don't think the black and yellow cards can coexist. Clearly some referees don't know the difference between the two. I do believe that the black card has helped cut down on cynical fouling. If we got rid of the black I don't think a yellow card is enough of a threat to keep players from committing cynical fouls. I think if we got rid of the yellow card and kept the black it would help keep players honest and take away the confusion for the referees. A red card offence is a red card, and everything else is a black card." Well then you would have players going off the pitch left right and centre. A few rough tackles in the first ten minutes of Kerry/Dublin game means a straight black card if no yellow existed ..most players would be afraid to tackle in that case,look at any player on a yellow ,they usually hardly raise a hand into a tackle.
GameOfTyrones (Tyrone) - Posts: 469 - 27/08/2016 17:27:34
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Replying To DBo183: "It's been a couple years now and I don't think the black and yellow cards can coexist. Clearly some referees don't know the difference between the two. I do believe that the black card has helped cut down on cynical fouling. If we got rid of the black I don't think a yellow card is enough of a threat to keep players from committing cynical fouls. I think if we got rid of the yellow card and kept the black it would help keep players honest and take away the confusion for the referees. A red card offence is a red card, and everything else is a black card." Just don't agree one bit.
Get rid of the black card, automatically bring frees 14 yards forward for cynical fouls. Cynical foul inside the 21 should be a penalty. That really would cut out a lot of the crap.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 27/08/2016 18:38:22
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Anybody just watch the women's game on tg4 ???
Kildare v Sligo and the ref was Maggie farrelly I have never seen as many players sent off in my life for absolutely nothing.
I think Sligo had 7 players sent to the line and kildare had 3.
At one stage kildare had there extra players on the pitch it was ridiculous.
one girl for Sligo made a brilliant diving block and got sent to the line for it.
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 27/08/2016 18:51:40
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Replying To Whammo86: "Just don't agree one bit.
Get rid of the black card, automatically bring frees 14 yards forward for cynical fouls. Cynical foul inside the 21 should be a penalty. That really would cut out a lot of the crap." You're still relying on referees to make the correct call, which clearly many don't. Giving away a handy free is not enough of a deterrent to keep players from fouling. The threat of being expelled from the pitch has to be there.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts: 16 - 27/08/2016 22:14:40
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Replying To GameOfTyrones: "Well then you would have players going off the pitch left right and centre. A few rough tackles in the first ten minutes of Kerry/Dublin game means a straight black card if no yellow existed ..most players would be afraid to tackle in that case,look at any player on a yellow ,they usually hardly raise a hand into a tackle." That's a good thing. Less illegal tackling means less stops for frees and more free flowing play and scoring.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts: 16 - 27/08/2016 22:21:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "Just don't agree one bit.
Get rid of the black card, automatically bring frees 14 yards forward for cynical fouls. Cynical foul inside the 21 should be a penalty. That really would cut out a lot of the crap." I couldn't see that working either. One of the biggest gripes about the black card at the moment is that referees either can't interpret what a deliberate foul is or that they frequently call it wrong. Could you imagine the uproar if a ref awards a deciding penalty in a big game on what turns out to be his misjudgement of a foul over on the side-line but inside the 21. If there is a need to reduce the number of cards then the sin bin for a yellow is the best option and get rid of the black.
AHP (Dublin) - Posts: 323 - 27/08/2016 23:49:26
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Replying To DBo183: "You're still relying on referees to make the correct call, which clearly many don't. Giving away a handy free is not enough of a deterrent to keep players from fouling. The threat of being expelled from the pitch has to be there." I don't really understand the thinking behind the black card though. The punishment is stupid to me, it's punishing a player but it's not a huge punishment to a team.
Cynical fouls occur to slow the game down to stop teams entering the scoring zone. You get a foul around 55 metres out moving to 40 metres out that free kick goes from being 1 in 5 to 1 in 2 or so. That's a proper tangible penalty. Give the guy a yellow along with it.
The black card in the second half of a game is particularly stupid. Guys can be bollocksed anyway and a management team don't lose very much by being forced into making a change.
The black card does not solve the problem of what happened in Tyrone Monaghan for instance. Sean Cavanagh would take his black all day long and pull the man down. If it was a penalty it would be a different story.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 28/08/2016 01:59:54
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Replying To AHP: "I couldn't see that working either. One of the biggest gripes about the black card at the moment is that referees either can't interpret what a deliberate foul is or that they frequently call it wrong. Could you imagine the uproar if a ref awards a deciding penalty in a big game on what turns out to be his misjudgement of a foul over on the side-line but inside the 21. If there is a need to reduce the number of cards then the sin bin for a yellow is the best option and get rid of the black." My problem with the black card doesn't have much to do with the referees. They get all sorts of calls wrong, it's just black cards get highlighted because it's an unpopular rule.
My problem with the rule is that it's a stupid penalty for the crime that takes place. If there was a better punishment then maybe teams would stop committing a cynical foul.
In the second half of a game a team will make 5 or 6 subs, most players committing a cynical foul in the second half of a game probably would be better being replaced anyway. So in those cases where it's most important the rule offers practically zero disincentive. That's stupid. Take Sean Cavanagh vs Monaghan, even with the black card he'd still do the same. Threat of giving away a penalty he might try instead to properly tackle the man.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 28/08/2016 02:05:32
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Replying To hill16no1man: "Anybody just watch the women's game on tg4 ???
Kildare v Sligo and the ref was Maggie farrelly I have never seen as many players sent off in my life for absolutely nothing.
I think Sligo had 7 players sent to the line and kildare had 3.
At one stage kildare had there extra players on the pitch it was ridiculous.
one girl for Sligo made a brilliant diving block and got sent to the line for it." I never watch womens football so dont know their rules but it seems crazy what people were being sent off for......btw the number 20 for sligo was class
tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 28/08/2016 08:55:42
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Replying To tipp11: "I never watch womens football so dont know their rules but it seems crazy what people were being sent off for......btw the number 20 for sligo was class" Ladies football has a sin bin for a yellow instead of the black card. Hard to compare the codes though, given that there's generally much less cynicism in the women's game.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 28/08/2016 11:54:11
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Do away with both cards, just have a sin bin something like 5 Min sin bin for Yellow and 10 for black.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 28/08/2016 14:32:50
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A sin bin is the worst thing that could be introduced. All it would guarantee is 10 mins of one team playing 14 behind the ball. It will be a godsend for those looking to play rotten negative football.
mike03 (Limerick) - Posts: 2000 - 28/08/2016 15:14:11
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It's been a couple years now and I don't think the black and yellow cards can coexist. Clearly some referees don't know the difference between the two. I do believe that the black card has helped cut down on cynical fouling. If we got rid of the black I don't think a yellow card is enough of a threat to keep players from committing cynical fouls. I think if we got rid of the yellow card and kept the black it would help keep players honest and take away the confusion for the referees. A red card offence is a red card, and everything else is a black card.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts:14 - 27/08/2016 16:54:20I think the black and yellow most certainly can co-exist. You can give yellows for a lot of infringements that don't deserve a punishment that mean you're off for the rest of the game.
It should be a black card as a sin bin then and if you have 3/4 black cards or more than you cant replace them.
Just don't agree one bit.
Get rid of the black card, automatically bring frees 14 yards forward for cynical fouls. Cynical foul inside the 21 should be a penalty. That really would cut out a lot of the crap.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:829 - 27/08/2016 18:38:22Having such a ruling in place to bring frees 14 yards forward for cynicism is just messy and doesn't improve things. You need to punish players to stop them fouling and punish them with time off in the form of a sin bin
I don't really understand the thinking behind the black card though. The punishment is stupid to me, it's punishing a player but it's not a huge punishment to a team.
Cynical fouls occur to slow the game down to stop teams entering the scoring zone. You get a foul around 55 metres out moving to 40 metres out that free kick goes from being 1 in 5 to 1 in 2 or so. That's a proper tangible penalty. Give the guy a yellow along with it.
The black card in the second half of a game is particularly stupid. Guys can be bollocksed anyway and a management team don't lose very much by being forced into making a change.
The black card does not solve the problem of what happened in Tyrone Monaghan for instance. Sean Cavanagh would take his black all day long and pull the man down. If it was a penalty it would be a different story.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:829 - 28/08/2016 01:59:54The punishment for a black card does punish a team though. You lose a player for the remainder of the game and this can affect the number of subs you may use, etc
A sin bin is the worst thing that could be introduced. All it would guarantee is 10 mins of one team playing 14 behind the ball. It will be a godsend for those looking to play rotten negative football.
mike03 (Limerick) - Posts:1645 - 28/08/2016 15:14:11A sin bin wouldn't at all be bad. It wouldn't at all mean negative football would happen more as there would obviously be more space, one team would have a free man and this can change the game especially as teams could go down to 14 v 14, 15 v 14/13. It changes the dynamics of the game completely.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 28/08/2016 18:58:26
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It's been a couple years now and I don't think the black and yellow cards can coexist. Clearly some referees don't know the difference between the two. I do believe that the black card has helped cut down on cynical fouling. If we got rid of the black I don't think a yellow card is enough of a threat to keep players from committing cynical fouls. I think if we got rid of the yellow card and kept the black it would help keep players honest and take away the confusion for the referees. A red card offence is a red card, and everything else is a black card.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts:14 - 27/08/2016 16:54:20I think the black and yellow most certainly can co-exist. You can give yellows for a lot of infringements that don't deserve a punishment that mean you're off for the rest of the game.
It should be a black card as a sin bin then and if you have 3/4 black cards or more than you cant replace them.
Just don't agree one bit.
Get rid of the black card, automatically bring frees 14 yards forward for cynical fouls. Cynical foul inside the 21 should be a penalty. That really would cut out a lot of the crap.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:829 - 27/08/2016 18:38:22Having such a ruling in place to bring frees 14 yards forward for cynicism is just messy and doesn't improve things. You need to punish players to stop them fouling and punish them with time off in the form of a sin bin
I don't really understand the thinking behind the black card though. The punishment is stupid to me, it's punishing a player but it's not a huge punishment to a team.
Cynical fouls occur to slow the game down to stop teams entering the scoring zone. You get a foul around 55 metres out moving to 40 metres out that free kick goes from being 1 in 5 to 1 in 2 or so. That's a proper tangible penalty. Give the guy a yellow along with it.
The black card in the second half of a game is particularly stupid. Guys can be bollocksed anyway and a management team don't lose very much by being forced into making a change.
The black card does not solve the problem of what happened in Tyrone Monaghan for instance. Sean Cavanagh would take his black all day long and pull the man down. If it was a penalty it would be a different story.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:829 - 28/08/2016 01:59:54The punishment for a black card does punish a team though. You lose a player for the remainder of the game and this can affect the number of subs you may use, etc
A sin bin is the worst thing that could be introduced. All it would guarantee is 10 mins of one team playing 14 behind the ball. It will be a godsend for those looking to play rotten negative football.
mike03 (Limerick) - Posts:1645 - 28/08/2016 15:14:11A sin bin wouldn't at all be bad. It wouldn't at all mean negative football would happen more as there would obviously be more space, one team would have a free man and this can change the game especially as teams could go down to 14 v 14, 15 v 14/13. It changes the dynamics of the game completely.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 28/08/2016 18:58:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "My problem with the black card doesn't have much to do with the referees. They get all sorts of calls wrong, it's just black cards get highlighted because it's an unpopular rule.
My problem with the rule is that it's a stupid penalty for the crime that takes place. If there was a better punishment then maybe teams would stop committing a cynical foul.
In the second half of a game a team will make 5 or 6 subs, most players committing a cynical foul in the second half of a game probably would be better being replaced anyway. So in those cases where it's most important the rule offers practically zero disincentive. That's stupid. Take Sean Cavanagh vs Monaghan, even with the black card he'd still do the same. Threat of giving away a penalty he might try instead to properly tackle the man." Very good point never really thought of that
GameOfTyrones (Tyrone) - Posts: 469 - 29/08/2016 09:08:01
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Replying To Whammo86: "My problem with the black card doesn't have much to do with the referees. They get all sorts of calls wrong, it's just black cards get highlighted because it's an unpopular rule.
My problem with the rule is that it's a stupid penalty for the crime that takes place. If there was a better punishment then maybe teams would stop committing a cynical foul.
In the second half of a game a team will make 5 or 6 subs, most players committing a cynical foul in the second half of a game probably would be better being replaced anyway. So in those cases where it's most important the rule offers practically zero disincentive. That's stupid. Take Sean Cavanagh vs Monaghan, even with the black card he'd still do the same. Threat of giving away a penalty he might try instead to properly tackle the man." Not sure you are right in saying Cavanagh would have taken a black card anyway that time if the rule was in place. There were 25 minutes to go in the game and Tyrone were ahead by 2. Essentially Cavanagh and Tyrone's choice was risk conceding the goal and be behind by 1, or give away the free allowing Monaghan to close the gap to 1 and lose Cavanagh to a black card for the last 25 minutes. Id say both Cavanagh and Tyrone would have rather taken the risk of McManus scoring the goal rather than Cavanagh having to be off the pitch for the last 25 - if memory serves me right he was the best player on the field that day.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 29/08/2016 10:02:47
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See a club game in Laois yesterday evening when a team were behind their midfielder and county man James Finn was hauled down 4 times in last few minutes when he was going for goals 2 black cards and one red (terrible tackle)
The black card was no good to team behind they were two certain goals if he was allowed to go through as he was unstoppable on a solo run..
It's only late in a game that it usually happens so it doesn't effect a team in a winning position
BigJohn.6_8 (Galway) - Posts: 704 - 29/08/2016 10:19:44
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Replying To Soma: "Not sure you are right in saying Cavanagh would have taken a black card anyway that time if the rule was in place. There were 25 minutes to go in the game and Tyrone were ahead by 2. Essentially Cavanagh and Tyrone's choice was risk conceding the goal and be behind by 1, or give away the free allowing Monaghan to close the gap to 1 and lose Cavanagh to a black card for the last 25 minutes. Id say both Cavanagh and Tyrone would have rather taken the risk of McManus scoring the goal rather than Cavanagh having to be off the pitch for the last 25 - if memory serves me right he was the best player on the field that day." A fair enough, misremembered that incident, I felt it was later in the game.
It isn't difficult to see a situation though where players are more than happy to take a black card but would be less inclined to commit a cynical foul if they were to risk giving away a penalty.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 29/08/2016 10:48:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "A fair enough, misremembered that incident, I felt it was later in the game.
It isn't difficult to see a situation though where players are more than happy to take a black card but would be less inclined to commit a cynical foul if they were to risk giving away a penalty." I enjoy your posts as they are some of the most sensible on here but I think you are wrong on this issue. The biggest problem with your suggestion of giving a penalty is referees decisions will have even bigger impact on games - there is no reason to think there would be more consistency with that than applying the black card but now the difference is between a team getting a penalty or not. While Cavanaghs tackle got a lot of the headlines some of the worst cynical fouling that year took place in the closing minutes of the All-Ireland final when Dublin forwards just routinely dragged Mayo men to the ground in Mayos half - it stopped Mayo breaking quickly and the game was further delayed while the Dublin players picked up meaningless yellow cards. Bringing the ball forward 15 metres is useless in that situation, but the black card has largely stopped that nonsense. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the black card was dropped for a year - I think only then would people see the real value of it.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 29/08/2016 11:06:20
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