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Ulster default seeding didn't help...

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The Ulster Championship draw for this year was more or less in line with what a seeded draw would have come up with. Ulster have had a disappointing All-Ireland championship.

In other years where Ulster has had a lopsided draw they have faired better. It backs up a theory that tougher games are of benefit for the All-Ireland series.

Mayo got knocked out by Galway in the Connaught semi-final. They seem set to make the All-Ireland final. We lost out in the '09 Munster semi-final. We went on to win the All-Ireland.

If all provinces have a seeding system, it should help ensure teams of the same level enter qualifier rounds 1, 2 and 4.

If Waterford were drawn in a Munster semi-final by look of the draw, it's not right that they would bypass Q1 by default.

Munster finalists earn a bye to the semi-finals in the following year. That's a seeding earned on the field of play as Tipperary have done this year. It ensures only teams of sufficient level enter Q2 as opposed to Q1.

When Ulster has lopsided draws, it's crazy the level of some counties entering Q1 when they clearly are a top 16 team that should only be entering in Q2 at the earliest.

Ulster control their own championship. Only they can decide if they want to maintain a system where random draw leads to Division 1 counties being in Q1.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/08/2016 16:40:13    1898183

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Legend you do have an obsession with the North, anyway how would the seeding have helped in any way.

At the end of the day bar my own county, this year all other teams were in Div 1 and 2, seed away till your heart is content the fact is that there are a larger proportion of better teams in Ulster than the other provinces, are these teams the best in the country, on current and recent form no but ultimately Tyrone played 2 x Div 2 teams and 1 x Div 1 team to get to the quarters whereas your own county played 2 x div 3 teams then played one of the teams they beat to get to the semis.

Seeding will never help as long as there is a disproportionate number of better quality teams in one province but enjoy the semis and best of luck to Tipp these things are cyclical so fair play to Munster for having the most teams left.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 08/08/2016 17:00:32    1898198

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The Ulster Championship was perfectly balanced this year, and I thought it was brilliantly laid out. Granted I would scrap replay's, due to the time constraints, but other than that it was great.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/08/2016 17:02:58    1898200

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I think you read too much into a handful of results legendzxix.

Even at that I don't understand how this seasons results back up your theory that it's a good thing to have harder games.

Cavan had 2 games versus Tyrone, limped over the line versus Carlow (a bottom 5 team) and then lost to Derry. Division 1 Monaghan lost to division 3 Longford (1 of the few teams in the qualifier era to have never reached a provincial final or AI quarter final).

Munster does things their way, they are probably specifically designed to help their teams. Ulster does thing their way, probably with an eye on tradition or maybe with an eye on tv interest. Each to their own.

Many Munster posters have gotten great pleasure from Ulster's woes this year, the number of threads mentioning this poor Ulster season in their opening post is getting a bit over the top really.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 08/08/2016 17:16:36    1898209

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think you read too much into a handful of results legendzxix.

Even at that I don't understand how this seasons results back up your theory that it's a good thing to have harder games.

Cavan had 2 games versus Tyrone, limped over the line versus Carlow (a bottom 5 team) and then lost to Derry. Division 1 Monaghan lost to division 3 Longford (1 of the few teams in the qualifier era to have never reached a provincial final or AI quarter final).

Munster does things their way, they are probably specifically designed to help their teams. Ulster does thing their way, probably with an eye on tradition or maybe with an eye on tv interest. Each to their own.

Many Munster posters have gotten great pleasure from Ulster's woes this year, the number of threads mentioning this poor Ulster season in their opening post is getting a bit over the top really."
Hold on now. .

Cavan beat Carlow with relative comfort despite playing poorly - in doing so, they became only the 2nd ever team to beat the 6 day turn-around. The same 6 day turnaround beat Monaghan and Roscommon.

As for the Derry game, yes we shouldn't have lost but it was 1 Ulster team vs another so doesn't really offer anything to this argument apart from maybe pointing out that Tipp only just beat Derry but hammered the Connaught champions.


You can't base ANYTHING on one season's set of results.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 08/08/2016 17:38:28    1898230

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It's the first year in a while that had a balanced draw. It's the clearest indicator yet. I'm on record as saying I want to go to an Ulster final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/08/2016 18:16:24    1898251

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There is no clear evidence to suggest that a county's easy match schedule impairs that team's ability to perform well at the business end of the Championship.

Arguments were made years ago that Galway hurlers' bye to the AI SFs contributed greatly to their lack of titles over the decades - however, Kerry's football easy route, bar the occasional Cork challenge, appears to have little negative impact on their assault on Sam year-in-and-year-out.

That said - it is not weather teams overcome any unfair disadvantage or not (as they should not be handicapped) - but whether the tournament is inherently fair or not.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2583 - 08/08/2016 18:24:42    1898261

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Did a northern girl break your heart?

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 08/08/2016 19:02:59    1898287

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Hold on now. .

Cavan beat Carlow with relative comfort despite playing poorly - in doing so, they became only the 2nd ever team to beat the 6 day turn-around. The same 6 day turnaround beat Monaghan and Roscommon.

As for the Derry game, yes we shouldn't have lost but it was 1 Ulster team vs another so doesn't really offer anything to this argument apart from maybe pointing out that Tipp only just beat Derry but hammered the Connaught champions.


You can't base ANYTHING on one season's set of results."
I can agree you can't judge anything by 1 year.

I was just giving counter examples to legendzxix's assertion that hard draws benefit a team.

Sorry if had in my head though that Cavan only narrowly beat Carlow. My memory failed me.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 08/08/2016 19:39:38    1898305

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I can agree you can't judge anything by 1 year.

I was just giving counter examples to legendzxix's assertion that hard draws benefit a team.

Sorry if had in my head though that Cavan only narrowly beat Carlow. My memory failed me."
The years Limerick as well as Cork tested us did us the world of good. Ye need these challenges. I'm all for a round of 16 or whatever. We're hardly in Division 1 for the ***** and giggles.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/08/2016 20:33:45    1898321

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Was in croke Park Saturday evening and had great admiration for Donegal display 6th hard championship match of season. Not a level playing field when you compare that to Kerry's summer.

seanie08 (Monaghan) - Posts: 1799 - 08/08/2016 21:11:22    1898347

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think you read too much into a handful of results legendzxix.

Even at that I don't understand how this seasons results back up your theory that it's a good thing to have harder games.

Cavan had 2 games versus Tyrone, limped over the line versus Carlow (a bottom 5 team) and then lost to Derry. Division 1 Monaghan lost to division 3 Longford (1 of the few teams in the qualifier era to have never reached a provincial final or AI quarter final).

Munster does things their way, they are probably specifically designed to help their teams. Ulster does thing their way, probably with an eye on tradition or maybe with an eye on tv interest. Each to their own.

Many Munster posters have gotten great pleasure from Ulster's woes this year, the number of threads mentioning this poor Ulster season in their opening post is getting a bit over the top really."
What I must say here is Donegal got the toughest draw in the qualifiers, first Cork was ok but for the winner to meet Dublin then that was as tough of ask as you would want.
Now if Kerry had to have played Dublin Sat night would they(Kerry) still be in the championship. I don't think so As for Tyrone v Mayo to me that was a fifty fifty game with each having a chance to win.
No need to talk about Ulster woes as we have two teams who are in the top four /five in the country.
Fair enough both were bet Sat night but by the two teams who will probably contest the All Ireland final.
There are Kerry men here in London who are still not convinced Dublin are a top side. They are backing Kerry for Sam but i am going to have a bet with them --- that come the 67 minute as like Sat night when Donegal were within three points of Dublin-- Kerry will be a good bit more behind
Had Donegal not to have met Dublin I would say they would still be in the championship.
Interesting to hear C Kilkenny talking about the game afterwards---- most brutal game he play in , how he was going for a message , ice packs and cold baths.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 08/08/2016 21:32:20    1898361

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Replying To seanie08:  "Was in croke Park Saturday evening and had great admiration for Donegal display 6th hard championship match of season. Not a level playing field when you compare that to Kerry's summer."
Firstly you're counting a replay. They also lost their provincial final and had to play a qualifier round.

Donegal:
U.QF Beat Fermanagh. Mayo beat Fermanagh. Galway beat Mayo. Tipperary beat Galway. Kerry beat Tipperary.
U.SF Beat Monaghan. Longford beat Monaghan. Cork beat Longford. Tipperary beat Cork. Kerry best Tipperary.
U.Final Lost to Tyrone. Tyrone lost to Mayo. Mayo lost to Galway. Galway lost to Tipperary. Tipperary lost to Kerry.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/08/2016 21:50:26    1898377

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Firstly you're counting a replay. They also lost their provincial final and had to play a qualifier round.

Donegal:
U.QF Beat Fermanagh. Mayo beat Fermanagh. Galway beat Mayo. Tipperary beat Galway. Kerry beat Tipperary.
U.SF Beat Monaghan. Longford beat Monaghan. Cork beat Longford. Tipperary beat Cork. Kerry best Tipperary.
U.Final Lost to Tyrone. Tyrone lost to Mayo. Mayo lost to Galway. Galway lost to Tipperary. Tipperary lost to Kerry."
...father evidence of a mindset with which a psychologist would make hay.

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 357 - 09/08/2016 16:42:03    1898934

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Why cant Ulster people accept they had a bad year as opposed to taking shot after shot at Munster Football.

Ulster teams won 4 out of 13 games (30%) while Munster teams won 6 out of 8 (75%) games against teams outside their province, yet all we get is poor Donegal and poor Tyrone look at the death row of teams they had to face, well the numbers make a mockery of these claims!

KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 09/08/2016 17:28:47    1898982

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Replying To KYTitletown:  "Why cant Ulster people accept they had a bad year as opposed to taking shot after shot at Munster Football.

Ulster teams won 4 out of 13 games (30%) while Munster teams won 6 out of 8 (75%) games against teams outside their province, yet all we get is poor Donegal and poor Tyrone look at the death row of teams they had to face, well the numbers make a mockery of these claims!"
I don't really think Ulster posters are denying that it's been a bad season for Ulster sides.

I find it quite irritating though the volume of the reminders that's going on around here.

I haven't counted but there have been a number of threads on here where the original post has mentioned Ulster and their poor season. Most in a mocking fashion.

It's pretty classless in my opinion.

Whatever about disliking individual counties for a genuine footballing reasons the tone of most of these threads are just anti-northern.

I suppose it's been a long time since Ulster teams have performed so poorly, probably has never happened in the qualifiers era. There's been some amount of begrudgery has been able to build over that time. Hopefully next season regular service will be resumed.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 09/08/2016 18:15:40    1898998

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't really think Ulster posters are denying that it's been a bad season for Ulster sides.

I find it quite irritating though the volume of the reminders that's going on around here.

I haven't counted but there have been a number of threads on here where the original post has mentioned Ulster and their poor season. Most in a mocking fashion.

It's pretty classless in my opinion.

Whatever about disliking individual counties for a genuine footballing reasons the tone of most of these threads are just anti-northern.

I suppose it's been a long time since Ulster teams have performed so poorly, probably has never happened in the qualifiers era. There's been some amount of begrudgery has been able to build over that time. Hopefully next season regular service will be resumed."
I agree there are too many threads like this whammo but don't believe it's anti-northern. It was impossible to discuss any football topic on here a few months back without someone stating that ulster was the only province worth watching, the other 3 provinces were predictable and full of poor teams outside the big 3, and Kerrys All-Ireland haul was only due to their soft run. It's no wonder now that posters from some of these counties should want to show how disrespectful and wrong that rubbish was. It still goes on with posters complaining about Kerrys soft Munster this year. What's not mentioned is that Kerry were the only team that had to beat an All-Ireland quarterfinalist and semifinalist just to win their province - when did that last happen I wonder? Yes Tipperary are division 3 but the attacking, expansive football they played to beat Galway in Croke Park in July just wouldn't work on a wet February night in Armagh. Far too much weight is given on here to how teams do in the muck of spring when a defensive handpassing style works well. It's all about summer football and the championship and this year has again shown that outside the big 3 there is very little between many of the sides.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 09/08/2016 20:23:15    1899074

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I have been complimentary of Ulster football championship. All I've stated is that a competitive championship is a help rather than a hindrance for the All-Ireland series.

Just because the Ulster championship is competitive to a certain level, it does not mean it has the top 3 or 4 counties in the country. Many Ulster counties have a habit of being promoted and relegated from Division 1 to Division 2. There are a number of counties from other provinces who are more consistent in both league and championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 09/08/2016 21:12:38    1899104

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Replying To Soma:  "I agree there are too many threads like this whammo but don't believe it's anti-northern. It was impossible to discuss any football topic on here a few months back without someone stating that ulster was the only province worth watching, the other 3 provinces were predictable and full of poor teams outside the big 3, and Kerrys All-Ireland haul was only due to their soft run. It's no wonder now that posters from some of these counties should want to show how disrespectful and wrong that rubbish was. It still goes on with posters complaining about Kerrys soft Munster this year. What's not mentioned is that Kerry were the only team that had to beat an All-Ireland quarterfinalist and semifinalist just to win their province - when did that last happen I wonder? Yes Tipperary are division 3 but the attacking, expansive football they played to beat Galway in Croke Park in July just wouldn't work on a wet February night in Armagh. Far too much weight is given on here to how teams do in the muck of spring when a defensive handpassing style works well. It's all about summer football and the championship and this year has again shown that outside the big 3 there is very little between many of the sides."
Who are the big three Soma.
To me Dublin stand out and you can take your pick of Mayo Tyrone Kerry and Donegal.
As regards Ulster teams and their performance in this year's championship it was obvious that Donegal / Tyrone were going to be the only two teams to make a challenge for Sam
Tyrone could have won-- you can't miss a goal chance like Tyrone did in the second half. Plus they kicked a few bad wides late on. The other thing was if Mayo were to get anyway near last year's form they were going to be a match for anybody.
Donegal got the hard draw---- would Kerry Tyrone or Mayo have beaten Dublin last Sat night?? I don't think so
We have played Dublin three times in the championship since 2011and we have conceded one goal , the one scored late in Sats nights game which I thought was a poor goal to concede
Talking about Summer football -- outside Dublin Kerry Mayo who would you say could beat Donegal or Tyrone in the championship. On any given day neither Kerry or Mayo might not beat Donegal /Tyrone
As regards Tipp even if they were playing in Ulster I doubt if they could win an Ulster championship. When did they last beat Kerry in the championship. At least Donegal and Tyrone did. No matter what people say TWO of the top five teams are in Ulster

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 09/08/2016 21:21:50    1899110

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Ulster cant be strong every year, any more than other provinces are or are not. It is more about the individual counties now rather than the provincials in terms of quality.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss how any other ulster counties do once we are knocked out. I would love if Mickey Harte had one last hurrah on the back of what he has gone through over the past few years, but the ulster final, unfortunately, was at our expense.

I would love to see either tipp or mayo win this year, as would any other neutral. I hope tipp beat mayo as they would be any neutrals favorite. It's not all about ulster football. In fact, it was a breath of fresh air for us to play cork this year.

In conclusion, I think that tyrone are the only ulster team that could have done better, not because they got a handy draw in ulster or not, but because they didnt play their best in the last game. I think that donegal would never have beaten dublin this year so there's that. It will be interesting to see how other team(s) handle them.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 09/08/2016 21:49:04    1899138

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