So the season is over....I know it is only just over and celebrations are only beginning in the Capital (Congrats to the Dubs on a deserved victory).
However I believe this is the best time to get the debate going again regarding restructuring of the Championship. Every year in the early/middle parts of the season when a team is beaten by 15-20 points this debate comes up and lasts a few weeks - or a few months if lucky. However before too long it dies down, teams knuckle down to the same routine of preparing for next year, supporters live in hope...until next year when another hammering occurs.

The time for debate about the quality of the current system, or suitability (or lack of) of the current structure going forward, is directly after the season concludes.
It is plainly clear that the amount of teams that are capable of competing for Sam is very small, and the gap between these teams is getting bigger every year (for a variety of reasons). Every county wants to dream of a challenge for sam and should be given that opportunity, but the structure has to change. Too many mismatches again this year. Look at Connacht and Leinster finals. If it was opening round hammerings I could maybe live with it, but to happen in provincial finals is worrying.

Is there real desire around the country to push for change? What options do people find to be the best as presented thus far - or have any of you got opinions on it?

My own opinion is that Jim McGuinness put forward the most straightforward and fair means of keeping the provincials (but running them off over 4-6 weeks), giving every team the chance of competing for Sam and having a proper second tier competition.
Comparisons with Tommy Murphy Cup are not valid IMO as it is a completely different approach. TMC was a third tier comp for teams that were knocked out of provincials, and early round of qualifiers. It was a meaningless competition that was given no support or incentives by GAA powers.

The proposal put forward by JMCG deserves more media attention, as does the overall debate. I would be very keen to see some sign of change, or at least a willingness to embrace the idea of change, but being honest I am not overly optimistic of anything happening.

Any opinions?

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 21/09/2015 12:26:18    1790039

The McGuinness proposal is worth a shot

mayo_hurler (Mayo) - Posts: 113 - 21/09/2015 13:44:37    1790115

do lads think it can really happen? I know there is appetite among the players and the fans but auld fellas in eg cork who have been doing things a certain way for 30 years ain't gonna disband the munster championship. I think all of this if for forums and radio shows but next year's championship will roll out the same way.

switec (Kildare) - Posts: 525 - 21/09/2015 13:55:26    1790119

switec
County: Kildare
Posts: 512

1790119
do lads think it can really happen? I know there is appetite among the players and the fans but auld fellas in eg cork who have been doing things a certain way for 30 years ain't gonna disband the munster championship. I think all of this if for forums and radio shows but next year's championship will roll out the same way.

You are right. All of the provincial councils are not going to want to give up their domain.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 21/09/2015 14:11:16    1790128

I agree Switec, the Auld boys that love the tradition etc etc etc are going to be a major stumbling block to change.

But JMCG proposal does not disband the provincials. It just runs them separately to AI series. Two separate championships. If you have not already, take a read below of his proposal. It facilitates the provincials, makes league more important - increased rewards for good league form, creates a level field for start of AI series, gives teams an incentive to win second tier comp - qualification to following years Tier 1 comp. With proper planning it could all be run off very smoothly, giving more certainty to the fixture calendar etc. There will still be the occasional missmatch, but that is the nature of sport. It will however see more teams playing more competitive games at a level they are at.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 21/09/2015 14:26:58    1790141

I don't really like the JMCG proposal. Certainly not if we have the same calendar where league is played at the same time as the All Ireland Club Championship. Teams will be losing players for important games that determine their championship.

I also think a B championship will get next to no exposure, worse than the current qualifiers which at least offer the carrot of playing in that years quarter finals. The weaker counties will find it even harder to drum up sponsorship.

A few important changes I think need to happen:

Reduce the length of the season, play everything off in the 22 weeks in April to August.

Only dedicate at most 6 weeks to provincial championships.

Get rid of replays to help keep the fixtures running smoothly. Extra time followed by golden score extra time to decide games.

Play the league on weeks between the provincial championship game weeks. I think this would really help the prestige and profile of the league. The weaker counties then get to play meaningful football during the summer even if they're knocked out of the championship early.

Qualifiers could maybe do with a slight tweak to make them fairer, there's loads of ways to potentially do that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 21/09/2015 18:12:53    1790314

Whammo86 - Agree about the calendar, but understanding is that the club finals are going to be completed before end of the year. This has to happen, regardless of whether intercounty structure changes or not, and I believe it will be moved to December.

Regarding lack of exposure for B championship, this is certainly an issue, but it is something for the GAA and media to sort out. It will need a lot of promotion and marketing, and where possible should be played on same day and venue as A Championship games.

If it is not implemented, I have to say I certainly agree with your other points mentioned, especially the time line for completing competitions. 6 weeks is more than enough for provincials, and there is no reason why championship cannot be completed by mid August. This will give club players much more clarity to know they will be playing club football at certain times in the year.

However I don't agree that a few small changes to qualifiers will make enough of a difference to the overall structure. It is such a lopsided unfair uncompetitive championship. JMCG proposal may not be the whole solution, but I feel it is the best proposal put forward so far.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 22/09/2015 09:19:23    1790479

I would have thought only Kerry posters would be calling for this after Sunday :) !

Why not seed the prov finalists and SF losers to the prov SFs and QFs the next year.
This goes a long way in bringing balance and could be added to the Sean Kelly plan. The TMC champ could also play for a QF bye in lieu of a prior year SF loser.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 22/09/2015 14:13:03    1790730

4 Provincial groups of 8 teams, comprised as follows, 2 from each league division in each province.
2 groups for 4 within each province (everyone gets 3 games).
Winners of groups play provincial final.

Option a/
Top 2 in each group to AI series, i.e. 16 teams, 4 groups of 4 headed by provincial winners, another 3 games.
Provincial winners get to play all games at home. Provincial runners up get to play 2 games at home. Remainder between team 3 and 4 played at a neutral venue.
4 group winners play semis...
Total of 8 games for finalists.
Bottom 2 in each group play in 2nd tier competition, structured the same way as the AI series and to the same timetable.
Option b/
Same as above only top 2 in each provincial group get to a last 16 knockout format. Again provincial/group winners get to keep home advantage for last 16 games, provincial winners get home advantage for last 8 games.
Bottom 2 teams in each group play a knockout format to the same timetable for 2nd tier competition.
Total of 7 games for finalists.

Advantages: Best teams, strongest panels whatever, have best chance of progression. All 32 get a crack at provincial title and have to prove ability for AI series. Everyone works off the same timetable, should take no more than 10 weeks to complete!
Disadvantages: Hammerings will happen, they do anyway! Counties will have to move province, happens in hurling so I don't see a problem with this. Would actually be an advantage for Ulster counties as they all play in Div 1,2, exception Antrim.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 22/09/2015 14:55:19    1790767

Championships will not be restructured in the near future.

The main reason being the Ulster Football Championship and Munster Hurling Championship.

Two sacred cows.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 22/09/2015 15:00:41    1790773

Bennybunny posted an excellent proposed hurling structure which I think would also work for Gaelic football.

basically each 'tier' has 16 teams, 8 in group 1 (more competetive) and 8 in group 2. Round robin system where 3 from group 1 & 1 from group 2 make it into the semi finals. I think it would really give us the viewing we need and would give each team a shot at winning something.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 22/09/2015 15:18:27    1790785

I agree that the provincials should be retained but separated from the main championship, but I would prefer an 8 groups of 4 world cup style format, where the 8 provincial finalists get top seed (with the 4 provincial winners getting top priority in seeding, ie kept apart until the AI semis) and the league is used to seed the rest of the teams. This way the importance of the provincials are retained (I'm by no means a traditionalist, but to ignore peoples loyalty and interest in them would be very foolish), the importance of the league is increased and each team is guaranteed at least 3 championship games.

My main disagreement with McGuinness's structure is that while it technically includes all teams, because all you have to do is win your provincial or win the B championship to gain access to the main All-Ireland, in reality it would all but end many teams from ever competing for Sam again. Now that can't really be good for interest within a weaker county, whether they had any real chance or not is irrelevant, it's the opportunity and playing the big name teams that raises interest.

Within the last 5 seasons (2011-2015) there has been 20 provincial football championships and therefore 20 winners obviously, but none of those were won by teams that wouldn't have automatically qualified for the top tier anyway. Monaghan won Ulster in 2013 from div3 but they were promoted as the top team so presumably under McGuinness's system they would take the position of the 7th place team in div2 and qualify for the top tier anyway because no weaker county won their provincial. This basically means that under McGuinness's proposal except for very rare provincial winners, the top 16 would nearly always consist of the top 15 league teams and 1 team from the 2nd tier, now if you want to make something elitist and all but completely exclude many weaker teams from ever playing in the main competition again then this is the way to go.

Finally, I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts and opinions on a second tier system from div3 & div4 teams rather than div1 or div2 teams.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/09/2015 16:12:56    1790829

Omahant - maybe I am a Kerryman in disguise!!

Moylagh - How are these called provincial championships if you have teams from anywhere competing in them? It is just a restructuring of the All Ireland series and a disbandment of the Provincial Championships. I do not believe you can do this.

MesAmis - The proposal by JMCG keeps the provincial championships, it just condenses them which needs to be done anyway. No need for them to be dragged out for so long. As the main opposition to a change in structure is the desire to keep the provincials, this is why I think this is the best solution. It keeps the provincials and offers teams another opportunity for an All Ireland title without having to win the provincials.

I do like the idea of maybe playing the provincials during the league thus giving teams better preparation for the All Ireland series and keeping teams playing in summer months.

Alot of options there, that really need to be looked at by the powers that be. It cannot be left too much longer in current format. Obviously wont change for next year, but the following year is realistic.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 22/09/2015 16:18:54    1790832

The question that needs to be asked is - Do the GAA have enough interest in the players to provide them with a Championship structure which rewards their efforts?

While I don't see that provincial councils have any real interest in anything but themselves I feel we are getting closer to change with players now speaking up about their dissatisfaction with the structure and TV networks playing for rights to show a poor GAA product.

I live in hope - but maybe I'm a dope!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 22/09/2015 17:26:07    1790907

My tweak to the qualifiers to make them more fair is the following.

Seed the teams into 4 pots of 8.

Pot A made up of provincial champions, div 2 champion and next 3 best teams in the league.
Pot B made up of any remaining provincial finalists, division 3 champion and the remainder based on league position.
Pot C made of of division 4 champion and the remainder based on league position.
Pot D made up of remaining 8 teams.

Round 1 Pot C v Pot D
Round 2 Pot B v Winners from round 1.
Round 3 Pot A v Winners from 2.
Quater-finals.

Gives provincials some importance but less than is currently given.

I am very against the champions league style championship of 8 groups of 4. I think it'd be too drawn out and have a lot of pointless games. People find the qualifiers boring, IMO this would be even worse.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 22/09/2015 18:14:35    1790938

To Whammo86 -
I think your JMcG variant is quite.
Anotber way I look at this - is take NFL Div 1 as Seeded A, Div 2 as B etc, with 'leap frogging' allowed for anything you like
(e.g. Prov champs, runners up, NFL various div performance, AND I think next year leap frogging for TMC has a role (say, TMC champ rank as 11th in B, and runner up as 19th in C.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 22/09/2015 19:19:36    1790976

.......quite good, I should have said :)
The beauty of your ABCD is that it's like the Quals, except entry is based on fairer NFL.
So let's develop a seeding convention -
All teams start with their NFL rank 1 to 32.
Prov champs leap frog to 0.5 (ahead of non-champ NFL 1st ranked =1).
Prov losing finalists leap frog to 8.5.
Div 2, 3, 4 champs 7.1, 15.1, 23.1.
Div 2, 3, 4 runners up 8.2, 16.2, 24.2.
Div 1, 2, 3 second bottom 9.7, 17.7, 25.7.
Div 1, 2, 3 bottom 10.8, 18.8, 26.8.
TMC champ 19.1 and runner up 20.2.

1st Rd losers from C v D could enter 8-team TMC with finalists getting mid Seed Cs the following year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 22/09/2015 20:47:35    1791040

Both the All Ireland Hurling and Football finals should be played in August and if a replay is needed everything should be over by 1st Sunday in September. Play the games over a shorter period, there is no need for 4 Sundays to play 4 provincial quarterfinals, play them over the 1 weekend or as 2 double headers for example 2 Saturday 2 Sunday or all 4 on 1 Sunday in 2 venues, never mind the TV coverage, these rounds played on the same weekend means qualifiers should start earlier, have AI quarters on weekend of July 8 for hurling and July 15 for football, hurling semis around 3rd/4th weekend in July, football August bank holiday weekend. That leaves around August 15th for hurling final and August 31st for football. A 2 week break should do any team just look how Dublin done this year and Kerry last year with a 2 week break before the final

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 22/09/2015 21:23:23    1791067

Have 4 groups of 8 teams seeded exactly as they are in the current national league.

Each team plays each other once as in the current national league.

2 teams promoted and relegated exactly as we have it at the moment.

The team that finishes top of each group are automatically crowned National league champions.

The top three teams from Division 1 qualify for the All-Ireland semi-finals...i.e. to play for the Sam Maguire Cup.

The winner of the Tommy Murphy Cup would be the fourth team in the semi-final.

The Tommy Murphy Cup would be played between say the the top 2 teams of Division 2 and top 1 team of Division 3 and 4 (that was how the old national league used to work).

In this system, everybody still has a shot at winning the big one. The lower tiered tournaments are a step toward the big one not a demotion.

The GAA public get to see Dublin v Kerry, Dublin v Monaghan, Donegal v Mayo, Kerry v Mayo from day one in the championship. There are no longer any Dublin V Longfords (unless of course Longford win the Tommy Murphy cup-where they will have to play and beat the best Division 2 teams before they have a shot). There is no longer 'ah sure we are only trying fellas out for the championship'...There are 9 games for a Division 1 team to play to win an All-Ireland. Kerry played 13 this year. Dublin played 16.

Reduced games (and we are only getting rid of the dead rubber games) means more time for clubs.

If hurling is structured in exactly the same way, then it is football one week, hurling the next week (18 weekends of meaningful competitive action between genuine competitors each week - this year we had maybe 5 such weekends) and some break weeks for clubs - extending the season to say 24 weeks.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 22/09/2015 22:01:08    1791096

Whammo86 - I have to say that is not a format I have heard before, and it is actually a really good proposal. I presume that when you would go with positions at the end of the league the two promoted teams from 4 would be ranked above two relegated teams from etc..?

Using this years league/championship I have organised the teams into their groups - I think I have done it right, but possibly have a couple of mistakes.
Pot A:
Dublin
Mayo
Monaghan
Kerry
Roscommon
Cork
Donegal
Down

Pot B:
Sligo
Westmeath
Armagh
Tyrone
Derry
Meath
Galway
Cavan

Pot C:
Offaly
Laois
Kildare
Fermanagh
Tipperary
Clare
Limerick
Longford

Pot D:
Louth
Wexford
Antrim
Leitrim
Carlow
Waterford
Wicklow
London

It would make for interesting viewing - granted there may not be huge media interest until round 3 or QF, but that is probably the case ATM anyway. What I really like about the format is that teams are playing against teams closer to their level, and as they progress they play teams at a higher level. It will also give teams a more balanced number of games, as obviously teams from Pot A will be the most likely to progress to later stages of competition.

My only fear is that it is extra games in an already clustered fixtures calendar. Have you any proposals as to when each round could be played? Would it be possible to have the Round 1 played before provincials are completed - would this be possible i.e as no provincial finalists are in pot C or D. This would cut out an extra week.

Overall an excellent proposal and one I would like to see debated further.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 23/09/2015 09:45:39    1791130