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Having watched Clare and Wexford lose their respective provincial finals of late, I think both these teams and Waterford (in spite of their great win over Kilkenny) are suffering from overthinking the game.
I am sure Donal Og, Davy Fitz, etc pour over hours of video analysis, etc, etc. Thinking about plan A, plan B, plan C, etc.
Now I am by no means an old school "hit it in and hope" merchant, but I do think that these teams suffer because they play an over thought out system instead of thinking of getting quick ball in, back your forward to win their own ball and score.
Once Clare went long on Sunday, Shanagher had a hand on him which could win ball. They just left it too late to do it.
I think the All-Ireland champions will come from Tipp, Cork and Galway because all 3 use the ball quickly, get the ball in to their forwards and back them to get goals, etc.
Instead, I am sure Clare are listening to the gospel according to Donal Og, which I think is limiting them.
Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 11/07/2017 08:47:55
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Great topic.
I'd like to see how Cork & Galway would face each other up. Canning has gone back into defence for Galway when under pressure in the Leinster final when Galway were defending their lead. Would Cork have a plan for that ......
I wonder were Waterford's tactics just to get over Kilkenny? I think if they hurled 15 on 15 they could be as good as the team of McGrath, Kelly, Shanahan etc.
I think Wexford could have a say in it still if Davy comes up with a plan to get more out of his forwards. Lee Chin has been immense for Wexford so far but at times they seem a tad reliant on him.
All to play for.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 11/07/2017 15:14:52
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i dont think this is correct,teams are now thinking about the game more than they ever did before,why is that a bad thing?
the days of the full back getting the ball,a big roar and hitting it down on top of a dominant half back line,are now over.especially if a team have a half back line like kilkenny had over the years.
would cork have won an all-ireland in 04 and 05 without the tacticts they had?no.because without them,they would have just been hit and hope merchants like everybody else.
tactics are great for the game,more of them please.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 12/07/2017 08:40:20
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Replying To perfect10: "i dont think this is correct,teams are now thinking about the game more than they ever did before,why is that a bad thing?
the days of the full back getting the ball,a big roar and hitting it down on top of a dominant half back line,are now over.especially if a team have a half back line like kilkenny had over the years.
would cork have won an all-ireland in 04 and 05 without the tacticts they had?no.because without them,they would have just been hit and hope merchants like everybody else.
tactics are great for the game,more of them please." KK with Tommy Walsh, JJ, Tyrell, Hogan and Murphy won countless All Ireland's doing exactly that.
They had exceptional ball winning forwards but it slightly disproves your point...
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 12/07/2017 09:53:21
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There is a myth out there that says if you play 15 on 15 you don't know tactics.
If you line out in the traditional format, are able to win your own ball and turn it into a score ain't that the best tactic of all? When top class inter counties play a sweeper it can send a message to the opposition that says 'we are worried about you'. I always thought Anthony Daly's Dublin were playing within themselves as were Davy's Waterford.
Also this hit & hope thing ...... In my opinion the 2010 all Ireland final was the best I've seen. Tipp's game that day was very direct. From the first ball down top of Corbett which he buried, to their last score they were driving into the heart of Kilkenny all day. if the ball is driven long, as long as you have a man to win it then the tactic can work. Clare had Shanagher winning a few high balls early on and midway through Sunday's game, then stopped using that.
I dunno, sometimes teams over complicate it.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 12/07/2017 10:19:37
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Replying To tiobraid: "KK with Tommy Walsh, JJ, Tyrell, Hogan and Murphy won countless All Ireland's doing exactly that.
They had exceptional ball winning forwards but it slightly disproves your point..." that was my point though,they were the springboard for so many all-ielands for kk,that until cork realised hitting the ball to them was suicide,and change their tactics to suit,short passing nullified this until kk got wise to it and closed down those balls too!
so tactics are improving the game,not disimproving it.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 12/07/2017 10:41:59
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Replying To slayer: "There is a myth out there that says if you play 15 on 15 you don't know tactics.
If you line out in the traditional format, are able to win your own ball and turn it into a score ain't that the best tactic of all? When top class inter counties play a sweeper it can send a message to the opposition that says 'we are worried about you'. I always thought Anthony Daly's Dublin were playing within themselves as were Davy's Waterford.
Also this hit & hope thing ...... In my opinion the 2010 all Ireland final was the best I've seen. Tipp's game that day was very direct. From the first ball down top of Corbett which he buried, to their last score they were driving into the heart of Kilkenny all day. if the ball is driven long, as long as you have a man to win it then the tactic can work. Clare had Shanagher winning a few high balls early on and midway through Sunday's game, then stopped using that.
I dunno, sometimes teams over complicate it." But what about the teams that play like that and get walloped?
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 12/07/2017 11:03:24
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Replying To Breffni39: "But what about the teams that play like that and get walloped?" That's been going on for years Breff.
1986 All Ireland semi, Cyrill Farrell named Pierce Piggott at Full forward but played him as a third midfielder against Kilkenny in the semi final. Noel Lane & Joe Cooney ran riot. Galway 4-12 Kilkenny 0-13. Kilkenny didn't know what to do with the spare man.
In the final, Cork did. Johnny Crowley was left free and cleaned up.
Not for a second saying every team should play traditional 15 on 15 but it hurts a lot of teams to mess about. Clare U21's last night played with 5 forwards in the first 20 minutes of the game and found themselves 1-14 to 1-3 down. When they pushed up their full forward line they got into the game. It didn't seem to help them at all.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 13/07/2017 11:40:36
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Replying To slayer: "That's been going on for years Breff.
1986 All Ireland semi, Cyrill Farrell named Pierce Piggott at Full forward but played him as a third midfielder against Kilkenny in the semi final. Noel Lane & Joe Cooney ran riot. Galway 4-12 Kilkenny 0-13. Kilkenny didn't know what to do with the spare man.
In the final, Cork did. Johnny Crowley was left free and cleaned up.
Not for a second saying every team should play traditional 15 on 15 but it hurts a lot of teams to mess about. Clare U21's last night played with 5 forwards in the first 20 minutes of the game and found themselves 1-14 to 1-3 down. When they pushed up their full forward line they got into the game. It didn't seem to help them at all." The tactics you employ need to suit the players at your disposal.
Not all teams had Shefflins, Brennans, Larkins in their forwards who could win their own ball more often than not as Kilkenny are about to experience in the next year or two so you have to work out ways of nulifying your opponents strengths and work to develop scores for yourself.
Cork use Nash's puck outs to set up attacks. The Clare forwards filtered back leaving the out ball to the corner backs who then proceeded to pump the ball past the massed defence into the spaces left in front of the Clare fullback line allowing Cadogan and Horgan to race onto them, the type of ball that they like. Whilst it wasn't madness to allow the corner backs to take the ball, it was bonkers for the Clare lads to allow such space in front of their fullback line. Possibly this was a ploy to restrict Lehane and Harnedy and it probably worked in that regard but the game was being lost elsewhere. That in my mind is over thinking an ill thought out tactic.
At the other end Shanagher was getting a bit of joy from Cahalane (as was Maurice in the Waterford game) but the balls dried up as the Clare lads were shooting from way out the field (as did Waterford) with a high percentage dropping wide. They're great when they go over but percentages are against such tactics. Shanagher, assisted by Shane buzzing around him could have got more but for no service at all. That in my mind is also crazy and steadfastly holding to a tactic rather than playing the game that develops in front of you, something Kilkenny in their prime were the masters at, i.e. targeting a young Seamus Hickey in one AI final, also rotating their forwards until they get combinations in their favour.
I don't get this playing with the man at the back when you're chasing the game, that's madness and something Davy is prone to do as well as Derek McGrath. Waterford in particular have 6 to 8 forwards at their disposal that will keep any defence in Ireland on their toes man on man.
Tactics are good and sensible, but play the game that's in front of you, not on the white board in the changing room.
bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 14/07/2017 09:00:10
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Replying To bricktop: "The tactics you employ need to suit the players at your disposal.
Not all teams had Shefflins, Brennans, Larkins in their forwards who could win their own ball more often than not as Kilkenny are about to experience in the next year or two so you have to work out ways of nulifying your opponents strengths and work to develop scores for yourself.
Cork use Nash's puck outs to set up attacks. The Clare forwards filtered back leaving the out ball to the corner backs who then proceeded to pump the ball past the massed defence into the spaces left in front of the Clare fullback line allowing Cadogan and Horgan to race onto them, the type of ball that they like. Whilst it wasn't madness to allow the corner backs to take the ball, it was bonkers for the Clare lads to allow such space in front of their fullback line. Possibly this was a ploy to restrict Lehane and Harnedy and it probably worked in that regard but the game was being lost elsewhere. That in my mind is over thinking an ill thought out tactic.
At the other end Shanagher was getting a bit of joy from Cahalane (as was Maurice in the Waterford game) but the balls dried up as the Clare lads were shooting from way out the field (as did Waterford) with a high percentage dropping wide. They're great when they go over but percentages are against such tactics. Shanagher, assisted by Shane buzzing around him could have got more but for no service at all. That in my mind is also crazy and steadfastly holding to a tactic rather than playing the game that develops in front of you, something Kilkenny in their prime were the masters at, i.e. targeting a young Seamus Hickey in one AI final, also rotating their forwards until they get combinations in their favour.
I don't get this playing with the man at the back when you're chasing the game, that's madness and something Davy is prone to do as well as Derek McGrath. Waterford in particular have 6 to 8 forwards at their disposal that will keep any defence in Ireland on their toes man on man.
Tactics are good and sensible, but play the game that's in front of you, not on the white board in the changing room." Spot on brictkop especially this bit:
I don't get this playing with the man at the back when you're chasing the game, that's madness and something Davy is prone to do as well as Derek McGrath. Waterford in particular have 6 to 8 forwards at their disposal that will keep any defence in Ireland on their toes man on man.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 14/07/2017 09:20:16
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