National - New Proposed Hurling Structure

The Ger Loughnane article is just something Ger Loughnane wrote 2 years ago, thats not what the GAA are basing their hurling proposals on. Journalists have opinions, thats not the driving force behind these new proposals.

On the other source, it states "Based on the feedback received, the CCCC established three obligations that must be met in formulating its proposals: i.the retention of the provincial senior championships"
You can read into that what you like, but that's preserving both provincial championships. But if you read on through that statement, its the most thrown together things your likely to see. Look at the U21 section, talk about half-baked.

Remember, this isn't a new proposal. It was suggested a few years ago, and mostly rejected, although it did lead to the Leinster development group phase. But this is just something they yoinked from the filing cabinet when people started raising concerns about hurling, in the wake of the football super-8 proposals. There's no Machiavellian plot from Munster here, its far too lazy for that. This is just a reactionary token gesture, that hasn't been thought out.

But look, we're probably talking around in circles, and making the same points. For what its worth, I never thought it was fair that Leinster was being treated as a 'rest of Ireland" solution, while Munster was left alone. I think if they go forward with the provincial system, Munster needs to shoulder the burden with Leinster, of facilitating the latest sticking patch the GAA foists upon hurling, for including developing counties in the AI series. And I do think, unfortunately, the provincial system is no longer fit for purpose as it is, and these new proposals will not improve that.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts:1624 - 20/07/2017 16:26:33   2020096

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "The Ger Loughnane article is just something Ger Loughnane wrote 2 years ago, thats not what the GAA are basing their hurling proposals on. Journalists have opinions, thats not the driving force behind these new proposals.

On the other source, it states "Based on the feedback received, the CCCC established three obligations that must be met in formulating its proposals: i.the retention of the provincial senior championships"
You can read into that what you like, but that's preserving both provincial championships. But if you read on through that statement, its the most thrown together things your likely to see. Look at the U21 section, talk about half-baked.

Remember, this isn't a new proposal. It was suggested a few years ago, and mostly rejected, although it did lead to the Leinster development group phase. But this is just something they yoinked from the filing cabinet when people started raising concerns about hurling, in the wake of the football super-8 proposals. There's no Machiavellian plot from Munster here, its far too lazy for that. This is just a reactionary token gesture, that hasn't been thought out.

But look, we're probably talking around in circles, and making the same points. For what its worth, I never thought it was fair that Leinster was being treated as a 'rest of Ireland" solution, while Munster was left alone. I think if they go forward with the provincial system, Munster needs to shoulder the burden with Leinster, of facilitating the latest sticking patch the GAA foists upon hurling, for including developing counties in the AI series. And I do think, unfortunately, the provincial system is no longer fit for purpose as it is, and these new proposals will not improve that."
Agreed, we're going in circles.

Interesting last point there though as to Leinster being the rest of Ireland championship and Munster sharing the burden. I think given the overall strength in Munster, and the fact that it was only Galway and Antrim outside of Leinster and Munster and Kilkenny's utter dominance in Leinster, they idea behind the rest of Ireland championship was originally a good one. Leinster has benefitted by it for the most part. The problem there was that with the increased number of teams and the round robin, there actually wasn't much time in Leinster for the clubs.

Agree completely about the provincial championship not being fit for purpose at the highest level, with the qualifiers now in place teams simply don't know if they'll be playing or when they'll be playing. God forbid there's a draw involved, which could throw any number of teams and county/club schedules off course altogether.

I honestly think removing the provincials as a separate cup competition would be a much better option, and have a champions league style competition as the main championship structure with an even number of games for everyone. The provincials were based on knockout only, the backdoor diminishes that greatly for me.

dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts:82 - 20/07/2017 17:23:03   2020146

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Replying To dblackandamber:  "[quote=Marlon_JD:  "The Ger Loughnane article is just something Ger Loughnane wrote 2 years ago, thats not what the GAA are basing their hurling proposals on. Journalists have opinions, thats not the driving force behind these new proposals.

On the other source, it states "Based on the feedback received, the CCCC established three obligations that must be met in formulating its proposals: i.the retention of the provincial senior championships"
You can read into that what you like, but that's preserving both provincial championships. But if you read on through that statement, its the most thrown together things your likely to see. Look at the U21 section, talk about half-baked.

Remember, this isn't a new proposal. It was suggested a few years ago, and mostly rejected, although it did lead to the Leinster development group phase. But this is just something they yoinked from the filing cabinet when people started raising concerns about hurling, in the wake of the football super-8 proposals. There's no Machiavellian plot from Munster here, its far too lazy for that. This is just a reactionary token gesture, that hasn't been thought out.

But look, we're probably talking around in circles, and making the same points. For what its worth, I never thought it was fair that Leinster was being treated as a 'rest of Ireland" solution, while Munster was left alone. I think if they go forward with the provincial system, Munster needs to shoulder the burden with Leinster, of facilitating the latest sticking patch the GAA foists upon hurling, for including developing counties in the AI series. And I do think, unfortunately, the provincial system is no longer fit for purpose as it is, and these new proposals will not improve that."
Agreed, we're going in circles.

Interesting last point there though as to Leinster being the rest of Ireland championship and Munster sharing the burden. I think given the overall strength in Munster, and the fact that it was only Galway and Antrim outside of Leinster and Munster and Kilkenny's utter dominance in Leinster, they idea behind the rest of Ireland championship was originally a good one. Leinster has benefitted by it for the most part. The problem there was that with the increased number of teams and the round robin, there actually wasn't much time in Leinster for the clubs.

Agree completely about the provincial championship not being fit for purpose at the highest level, with the qualifiers now in place teams simply don't know if they'll be playing or when they'll be playing. God forbid there's a draw involved, which could throw any number of teams and county/club schedules off course altogether.

I honestly think removing the provincials as a separate cup competition would be a much better option, and have a champions league style competition as the main championship structure with an even number of games for everyone. The provincials were based on knockout only, the backdoor diminishes that greatly for me."]Does my inclusion of Prov KO matches in the group stage not kill two birds with one stone (see earlier above) ?

omahant (USA) - Posts:1025 - 21/07/2017 13:59:28   2020563

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "Interestingly, something similar to this scenario could well happen in this year's Camogie Senior Championship Group 2. The table stands as (3 points for a win):
Cork 12
Wexford 6
Offaly 3
Limerick 3
Tipp 0

Cork have played all four matches - the others have one match each left. If Tipperary beat Offaly by at least 3 points and Limerick lose to Wexford then Tipp will qualify having lost three matches. I'd predict a serious outcry if this were to happen in the hurling championship."
And that's exactly what's happened. Tipp have qualified for the camogie quarter finals by virtue of a one-point better score difference having lost three matches.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts:26 - 22/07/2017 23:36:43   2021333

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Replying To omahant:  "To keep Prov KO and a mixed Prov AI group phase -
1) Put Lein QF winner in Group X and their Prov SF/QF opponents in Group Y.
2) Put Muns QF winner in Group Y and their SF/QF opponents in Group X.
3) Finally, place the other two Prov Finalists in the group opposite their Final/SF opponents.
4) Complete group play - all 5 in X play all 5 in Y.
5) Top 3 in X form one half of AI KO draw (1st v QF winner 2nd or 3rd) - Y forms other half."
This is a superficially interesting proposal but is unfortunately flawed. Fundamentally, apart from the tortuous logistics of sensibly scheduling for such a proposal, I don't think there would be any prospect of a model being adopted whereby teams are compared with each other yet have not played each other.

If we took this year's championship (ignoring matches involving the teams from the qualifier group in Leinster) then the two groups (and the starting position at the end of the provincial series) would be (games played and points gained listed):

Group X P Pts
1. Galway 3 6
2. Clare 2 2
3. Tipp 1 0
4. Waterford 1 0
5. Kilkenny 1 0

Group Y P Pts
1. Cork 3 6
2. Wexford 2 2
3. Dublin 1 0
4. Offaly 1 0
5. Limerick 1 0

You would then have to have four (or possibly five) rounds of matches involving Group X v Group Y teams (with Cork and Galway idle for at least two of these rounds and Clare and Wexford idle for at least one). In the most extreme case where the groups are imbalanced this could lead to a scenario in which all the teams in one group beat those in the other e.g. if this happened here where Group X teams always won (perfectly plausible in this case) then the final tables would be:

Group X P Pts
1. Galway 5 10
2. Clare 5 8
3. Tipp 5 8
4. Waterford 5 8
5. Kilkenny 5 8

Group Y P Pts
1. Cork 5 6
2. Wexford 5 2
3. Dublin 5 0
4. Offaly 5 0
5. Limerick 5 0

This means Wexford (having lost four matches) and one of Dublin, Offaly or Limerick (having lost all five matches) would qualify, which would clearly be wrong when manifestly more successful teams in the other group are eliminated.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts:26 - 23/07/2017 00:26:48   2021372

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Does my inclusion of Prov KO matches in the group stage not kill two birds with one stone (see my post on page 4 earlier) ?
What you think of this fix ?

omahant (USA) - Posts:1025 - 23/07/2017 01:40:40   2021390

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I honestly think removing the provincials as a separate cup competition would be a much better option,
omahant (USA) - Posts:1020 - 21/07/2017 13:59:28 2020563

dont agree my friend - they would become akin to obyrne mckenna and mcgraths cups them

like th enew system - keeps the provinces -i mean how many munster titles have cork won and too see their fans in thurles after clare game you thing they had won their first, a provincial title is to be cherished

- 2 home games each is great, 2 home games for galway is great too, tis 1998 since clare played a munster game at home , and 1996 for waterford,

Bear in mind keeping the provinces means that in a lot of cases that teams are playing other teams that aint too far away from them which makes it easier for travelling fans

my reservations on this are
- needs promotion/relegation - carrot for ring teams to get up amoung the big boys
-having only 5 teams means that on the last round of group games the team having a bye (thus having played four games) may be at a disadvantage- so id prefer 2 groups of 6

sure look try it and see and if it dont work go back to old system

janesboro (Limerick) - Posts:1450 - 23/07/2017 01:50:30   2021392

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For the record, the 'honestly, I think....' comment above is not mine.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1025 - 23/07/2017 14:20:50   2021720

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To CEART PEILE - I didn't want to get too far into the hypothetical details but here you go -
1) Comparing teams not playing each other - it happens already in other sport tournaments - best losers qualify in Euro Rugby, CONCACAF Gold Cup Soccer, prior World Cup 1982 Soccer and curreng Euro/WC Qualifying (best 2nd place avoids play offs etc).
2) Teams don't have to wait around not playing - there are 5 rds - 1st rd could have 2 QFs, 2 SFs (other, short half of draw) and 2 bye teams going head to head (they will always split, one to each group). The 2nd rd needs to split to fully allocate to groups - (play games only a week apart) - rd 2a) other 2 SFs and also 2 QF losers head to head; then play rd 2b a week later. Now the 5 teams are fully allocated and the 3 remaining matches can be neatly scheduled with no bye weeks (again, I won't bore you with details).
3) Unbalanced match victories - fair point - to be brief, I didn't mention the 'wild card' option stated in my prior posts - to address, say 2 group winners and 4 wild cards to KO Last 6.

To JAMESBORO - My 5 in one group v 5 in the other also addresses your bye week issue.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1025 - 23/07/2017 15:13:30   2021759

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In Hurling with there already being tiers I don't see why they don't merge the league and championship into a league with 10 or 12 teams. Finish with playoffs.

It's different than football where teams don't want tiering and you can't have a 32 team league.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1652 - 23/07/2017 16:32:00   2021824

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Yes - sinple 10 teams - 5 Muns, 5 Lein - 9 games each (45 matches total, incl 8 that double as Prov Championship KO pairings, played in
rds 3, 6, 9 - finals played in rd 9).
Top 6 of 10 join two Prov Champs in AI QFs - most likely, Champs getting byes.

Div 2 with next 14 teams - 2 equal strength groups of 7 - 6 matches - 2 group winners and 6 wild cadds to KO QFs.
1 Div 2 Champ up / 1 Div 1 Last team down.

btw - I hope the GAA notes Tipp slipping thru to AI Camogie QFs with '1 and 3' record - surely, 'wild card' winning teams would be
preferable, regardless of any arguments against it.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1025 - 24/07/2017 22:43:33   2022869

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