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Qualifier Rd 1.5 - for a level playing field ?

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Yeah, it's hard to know. I suppose what the GAA are banking on is the achievement of qualification for that stage of competition. A group stage offers a clear distinction from the previous rounds.

If it's a hit, those missing out will want to be a part of the action. Players and managers will want to be involved at that stage of competition. If they start off with the 2 groups of 4, it's inevitable it will expand to 4 groups of 4.

European club rugby and soccer have a decent structure of two competitions. The Europa League has been invigorated by rewarding the winner a Champions League spot.

All teams missing out on provincial finals can be included in the qualifiers. All teams missing out in the group stage can enter a second championship guaranteeing the winner a group stage spot in the following year. It offers a good level of competition with a decent carrot.

All this can happen in hurling as well:
2 groups of 4: 4 provincial finalists, 2 to 4 qualifiers, All-Ireland winner and second championship winner.

Second championship can consist of 6 McCarthy teams missing out on group stage and Christy Ring finalists.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 22/11/2016 21:14:46    1936100

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Camogie 2x5 has been working well for a few years - so there is precedent.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 22/11/2016 22:59:33    1936126

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think it's getting too convoluted again.

The open draw 3 rounds down to 4 teams is very simple.

The provincial championships are simple.

I think merging the 2 streams is fairly straightforward also.

I think it's better than the qualifiers because the open draw isn't a secondary competition. It's a parallel competition.

I also disagree with you about weak teams need to be kept apart from the strongest teams.

As a young Antrim fan I'd have loved to have gone see Antrim vs Kerry or Galway or Dublin or Meath in an open draw round 1. Those would be games to inspire me to want to play county football.

I don't really understand why people are so precious about having teams play certain teams.

The novelty of some of the fixtures an open draw would throw up could be interesting for people to show up to.

The rounds could be played on big weekends to help promote them.

First round May Bank Holiday, 2nd round June Bank holiday."
Only restriction I put on potential mismatches - are to avoid Div 1 v Div 4 pairings - everything else fair game -
I feel with the GPA plan - I would make two changes -
1) Switch 4 1st deeds for 4 4th seeds in the other groups (so groups are either 1123 or 2344); and
2) Reduce KO teams to 20 from 24 (3rds in the 1123 groups only)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 24/11/2016 02:16:33    1936354

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Replying To GaryMc82:  "Is the Leinster seeding more realistic? Reward provincial semi-finalists with a bye from the preliminary round of the following year. Optional: also seed semi-finalists to avoid each other in the quarter-final draw of the following year.

A seeded Ulster championship will see more teams of an even level enter the appropriate qualifying rounds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5099 - 14/11/2016 13:51:43

No I would only seed the top 4 Ulster teams based on their National League performance, ensuring they are all allocated separate QF spots, with the top two sides on different side of the draw. I think would give Ulster far more balance, without taking too much away from the overall structure.

2016 was probably the most balanced draw for a long time, with Donegal/Monaghan and Tyrone/Cavan/Derry evenly distributed. Having Tyrone v Donegal on May 25th is not good for the Ulster Championship in general, nor is good for the All Ireland ambitions of those particular sides."
As you liked my AIC tweak of 2+6 (2 unbeaten Champs, 6 Quals to the AI QFs) from the existing 4+4, I was wondering your opinion on 3+5, that is -
After 1st Rd in each Prov, we have - Lein 8, Uls 8, Munsacht 8 (4+4l and Beaten 8 (latter to T Murphy Cup type comp).
After 3 KO Rds - 3 Regional Champs (incl Munsacht, after M/C Champs Playoff) to AI QFs, and TMC Champ to Qual Rd 3.
Losers in Regional Rds in quantities of 12, 6, 3 enter 12-team Qual Rd 1, 12-team Open Rd 2, 10-team (incl TMC) Seeded Rd 3.
5 Rd 3 winners join 3 unbeaten Prov Champs in AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 24/11/2016 02:31:02    1936355

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Back to 4 groups of 4 - how about the non-Prov Final 24 play 8 groups of 3 - a SF loser to each group and get a bye in the 1st group rd.
Also, a Prov Final 'doubles up' as initial 4x4 group games.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 24/11/2016 21:51:33    1936567

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Given the lack of support here for my Rd 1.5 as well as my dislike for 16 initial Qualifiers needing to win 2 games while Muns/Conn bye teams get to Rd 2 - I offer a compromise -
Each Prov SF loser joins a Rd 1 pairing in forming 8 groups of 3. Instead of 2 Qual KO Rds, all 24 non Prov Finalists play 2 games.
Top two in each group join 4 Prov Final losers in 20-team Rd 2, played concurrently with a 4-team Prov Champs Playoff Rd.
Or if you prefer, only 8 group winners join the Prov Finalists in your 4x4 (would put Prov Final in each group to keep game count down).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 25/11/2016 15:01:02    1936702

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With 4 groups of 4, realistically there should only be two qualifying rounds. Whammo86 and I have offered reasonable seeding suggestions in favour of those who have won more games in the current championship.

A second championship in that setup guarantees all teams 3 games. They get two bites at top 16 qualification. If merit is seen in a second championship offering group stage qualification in the following year, teams will get at least a third game during the summer. They can guarantee more games as well if they have enthusiasm for a group stage or double elimination format in the second championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 25/11/2016 17:26:11    1936729

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Replying To legendzxix:  "With 4 groups of 4, realistically there should only be two qualifying rounds. Whammo86 and I have offered reasonable seeding suggestions in favour of those who have won more games in the current championship.

A second championship in that setup guarantees all teams 3 games. They get two bites at top 16 qualification. If merit is seen in a second championship offering group stage qualification in the following year, teams will get at least a third game during the summer. They can guarantee more games as well if they have enthusiasm for a group stage or double elimination format in the second championship."
If League is to stay separate from Championship this is the best system I have seen for breathing new life into the competition.

The 12 team division 1, division 2 North and South system would be absolutely excellent. With provincial champions qualifying for quarterfinals alongside league performers.

It'd just get more of the games everyone wants. The best playing week in week out, in games that matter to the top prize. Division 2 champions remain in the hunt. Those teams would have some fierce competition, there's not much room for error needing to finish in the top 2 of your section to remain in AI contention.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 25/11/2016 20:47:09    1936758

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With a NFL, Prov Championships, AIC merger - I like the Whammo86 idea some time ago - where Prov results double up with group play and Prov stream winners advance with best group placings.
What was it again - Let me try - Uls 2x5 incl London, each group incl Uls Prelim, QFs and SFs - Uls final played separately;
Lein 5+6, with similar KO subset, Muns and Conn, each 1 group of 6, each with 15 games, incl 5 KO.
Top 3 advance from the 6 groups but incl Lein/Uls SFs and Muns/Conn Finals (12 teams) - 4 Lein/Uls 3rds playoff to reduce to Rd of 16 -
was that it ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 26/11/2016 02:53:10    1936784

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Why is there an inter-county league? More games keeping players away from their clubs.

Guarantee of 5 regular league games, two bites at making the All-Ireland series and 3 championship group games should be enough in both codes.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 26/11/2016 08:40:03    1936790

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It's very easy to play a league season off without increasing the length of the season.

First 9 rounds of the League March to May bank holiday weekend. 1 game every week.

Play the provincial championships plus 2 final rounds of league over the next 10 weeks, with the 10th League round played June Bankholiday weekend.

Another 6 weeks to play AI QF onwards. Season is finished on 3rd weekend in August.

For the AI quarter finals Provincial champions avoid each other in the draw and get ranked by their league placing.

QF A Provincial champion 1 v Non Provincial champion 4
QF B Provincial champion 2 v Non Provincial champion 3
QF C Provincial champion 3 v Non Provincial champion 2
QF D Provincial champion 4 v Non Provincial champion 1

Semifinals
Winner QF A v Winner QF C
Winner QF B v Winner QF D

Top 4 teams in league can't meet before semifinals. Top 2 teams in league can't meet before final.

Team finishing top of the division 1 regular season wins the New Ireland Cup.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 26/11/2016 11:05:30    1936800

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Division 4 teams scoffed at the idea of being excluded from the qualifiers though making provincial finals still offered a route.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 26/11/2016 13:14:00    1936810

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Division 4 teams scoffed at the idea of being excluded from the qualifiers though making provincial finals still offered a route."
It's very different. No team gets a qualifier so it's not as though a handful of counties are getting cast adrift.

With this system it doesn't matter that teams don't get a qualifier, they've already played a league competition that is part of the championship, as opposed to an elongated preseason competition.

When I think of proposals I think mainly about games players would want to play and what fans would want to watch and attend.

Pushing the league back 4 weeks I think would improve things.

Tying the league into bank holiday weekends would be great for getting families going to games. You have St Patrick's day, Easter, May Day and the June bank holiday all for league games.

With this system division 1 is a great competition to strive to play in. 11 matches against the top teams in the country and the games matter, in the only thing that matters in intercounty football, the race for Sam.

Division 2 being regionalised keeps some of the interest alive outside the top division.

The top teams will be all over trying to get back up to division 1. The lesser teams aren't travelling all over the country to play games they don't really care about.

Antrim will play games against Derry, Fermanagh, Down, Armagh. An Antrim player would get to test himself against top players from these teams more than one or twice a year.

The race to win division 2 would be competitive, with teams needing to finish in the top 2 in their section. A division 2 semifinal on the June bank holiday could get a good crowd to it. The sort of semifinals you'd get would be something along the lines of Derry v Kildare, Laois v Meath. A Croke Park final as a double-header with Dublin's final league game could be a sell out.

There is the second prize for teams in division 2 where they can get top 4 in their section and whilst they're out of AI contention they can still get promotion to division 1. The division 1 I describe is something worth playing for.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 26/11/2016 14:45:23    1936824

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Tying the league into bank holiday weekends would be great for getting families going to games. You have St Patrick's day, Easter, May Day and the June bank holiday all for league games.

Whammo86 (Antrim)

There are a lot of family events outside of sport on bank holiday weekends as well. I'm not entirely sure that would go to plan.

I can't see the suggested league taking off. Even the hurling league with all it's divisions does not have a regionalised level.

The GAA are slowly moving in the right direction. Many sporting tournaments have competitions/qualifiers leading to the main tournament starting with a group stage. If agreed upon at congress, it'll have to be given a chance.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 29/11/2016 21:22:46    1937384

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Tying the league into bank holiday weekends would be great for getting families going to games. You have St Patrick's day, Easter, May Day and the June bank holiday all for league games.

Whammo86 (Antrim)

There are a lot of family events outside of sport on bank holiday weekends as well. I'm not entirely sure that would go to plan.

I can't see the suggested league taking off. Even the hurling league with all it's divisions does not have a regionalised level.

The GAA are slowly moving in the right direction. Many sporting tournaments have competitions/qualifiers leading to the main tournament starting with a group stage. If agreed upon at congress, it'll have to be given a chance."
I guess I have more faith in our games to provide good value entertainment than you do.

Beyond families you'd also have young men going for weekends away as a group. Kerry v Monaghan in Killarney on May Bank holiday would get Monaghan lads heading down for it. The fixtures would be well known in advance too, people can plan easily.

For a sport like GAA where county football is a representative level I think flat structures are best. This system has only 2 levels. There isn't a huge difference in standard between teams, I think all but a handful of teams would be competitive in division 2.

I can't understand why you'd think regionalising leagues is a problem. The Championship is regionalised because people are more interested in local rivalries.

I think this league would beat the average attendances for the current league and current qualifier system, which is what I'd measure success as being.

Division 1 would have the potential to be the most exciting sports league in this country.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/11/2016 06:31:03    1937443

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If each Prov SF loser joins a Qual Rd 1 pairing to form a group of 3, each of the 8 group winners could then join the 4x4.
If the SF loser plays the Rd 1 loser first (2nd game in group), this sets up the SF team against the Rd 1 winner always in a relevant match (no dead rubber).
Each Prov Final could start each of the 4x4 groups, with the other two teams being SF losers from 2 of the 3 other Provs for variety (or the non-SF team that won the 3-team group taking its place).
You could pair a losing SF from the Big Provs (Lein OR Uls) with one from the Small Provs (Muns OR Conn). This forms 4 pairs for the 4 groups.
So, Uls/Conn SF losers (or teams that beat them in groups of 3) could be put in 4-team group with Lein Finalists.
Uls/Muns SF losers with Conn Finalists etc.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 03/12/2016 05:01:20    1938121

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European club rugby and soccer have the blueprint. Similarly international rugby and soccer tournaments have the blueprint. Qualifying series for group stage of main event.

The provincial championships and two qualifying rounds leading into 4 groups of 4 offers a similar tried and trusted format that people can easily identify with.

It's inevitably the direction the GAA will take in their own time.

The main All-Ireland contenders are consistently in Division 1. This is reflected in the decent crowds. There's no appetite for changing the football league. At best agreement might be found on using league placing as seeding.

On a vote between two qualifying rounds or league placing, two qualifying rounds will be the clear winner. The McGuinness-Kelly idea tweaked to include two qualifying rounds is a realistic championship possibility.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 04/12/2016 12:28:07    1938231

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I agree with these comments - when I express my own ideas, I focus on what I would like to see implemented rater than assessing what iis likely to be approved. I like to have the lopsided nature of the Provs somehow - 4 Muns/Conn byes need onw win to the 4'4 or Rd 2 with a loss - vs 20 Lein/Uls teams that need 2 or 3 Prov wins to get the 4x4 and 12 of 20 enter Rd 1. You seed or reward Prov wins as a counter - but ultimately, 8 groups of 3 would be fairest - and I like Prov Finals doubling as 4x4 ties.
If there is a B 4x4, I'd like the losing pair in each of the 8x3 entering one of the 4x4 groups (carrying forward one of 3 group matches - awarding a win like your idea.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 04/12/2016 17:37:41    1938274

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When the provincial championships and qualifiers can give teams two chances of making the final 16, there's no need for a group stage prior to that. It does not reinvigorate the qualifiers either.

I thought provincial championships could have been run in group format:
Munster - 1 group of 6
Connaught - 1 group of 5
Leinster - 1 group of 6 and 1 group of 5
Ulster + London - 2 groups of 5

Top 2 in Munster and Connaught into provincial finals.
Top 2 in Leinster and Ulster groups into provincial semi-finals.
Provincial winners into All-Ireland quarter-finals.
Provincial runners-up and semi-final losers from Leinster and Ulster into play-off.

A competition cannot be overloaded with group stages as the Champions League found out. They had 8 groups of 4 feeding into 4 groups of 4. It was a turnoff and replaced with the current Round of 16.

While I would have supported provincial groups, I accept support wasn't there for it.

The All-Ireland series group stage is the way forward. It will set a standard of competition. It'll be interesting to see how the initiative works out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 04/12/2016 20:07:05    1938290

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a) Another NFL to Sam KO and 2nd AIC KO.
NFL - 2 Divs (1 and 2) of 16.
Each 16 is equally regionalized - North 5, South 5 and Central 6.
10-match schedule for all - North 5 and South 5 play round robin (4 games), as well as v Central 6 (6 more games).
In each Div (1 or 2) - 10 of 16 to KO - top 2 each region (6 teams) + 4 wild cards playoff for 2 spots.
3 up/ 3 down (Div 2/ lower AIC finalists + Playoff winner from 2 SF losers), 3 regional Div 1 bottoms down.

OR b) Linking Divs 1 and 2 to Sam KO in the same year.
Div 1 of 14 - round robin (13 games) - top team is Div 1 champ - 3 down.
Div 2 of 18 - North 6, Central 6, South 6 - play regional double round robin 10 games)
Div 2 has a KO of 8 (top 2 each regional + 2 wild cards) - 2 Div 2 finalists + playoff winner from SF losers go up (3 teams).
Sam KO of 12 - top 4 of div 1 to AI QFs - next 7 (5th to 11th) join Div 2 champ in playoff rd for 4 more AI QF slots.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2591 - 05/12/2016 03:09:10    1938332

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