National - Tyrone for Sam 2017

Replying To seanie_boy:  "If Mickey and the lads want to say a few prayers before games that's their own business. Who'd have thought that a whole bunch of Catholics would be at it! If there was a Protestant or 2 in the squad then I'd say the Hail Mary might be inappropriate but not the act of saying a prayer together. This is a closed doors and private act for these guys,I bet most of yez that are complaining don't say much when your favourite premiership player scores a goal and celebrates by blessing himself and looking skyward. Every single lad on that squad went to catholic primary and secondary schools and some to catholic university's so I'm sure they're not troubled by engaging in a group prayer at all. I'm sure they're touched by ye all being so concerned for them though."
Well said Seanie.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 19/07/2017 23:53:35   2019677

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Replying To Wally:  "I just wish our lads would keep this stuff to themselves.

Like why even bring something like this up?

Personally I don't think it is right. Lads could have various beliefs or none and they may feel pressured to partake in these rituals.

It has no place within a sporting organisation."
In your opinion Wally. Lots of fellas tripping themselves up here trying to be modern.

How would the rosary offend a lapsed Catholic as one poster suggested? If they're lapse they just aren't pushed.

Also i'd say practising protestants would be pleased with a prayer. Of course the Our Father.

KK1926 (Kilkenny) - Posts:127 - 19/07/2017 23:58:24   2019678

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South Africa and Samoa unite in prayer at the end of their 2003 World Cup clash. To those who say spirituality should have nothing to do with sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei5uL0bSMNc

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 00:02:41   2019680

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Was really only being facetious with my comment earlier. What they do as a group within the dressing room walls is entirely their own business, even if it strikes an odd note in today's very different society. Back to the main subject...do Tyrone have what it takes to win the All Ireland? I think they have as much a chance as Kerry and more than Mayo. Should be some game in the All Ireland semi final if/when they meet Dublin.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts:757 - 20/07/2017 06:22:23   2019713

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I think it is good to see a team pray together like this. This is micky hartes management ethos and I have huge respect for him for instilling this into his team. There is not many other managers in the game could positively influence their team like this and It will do the tyrone lads no harm plus will help with their focus and their goal achievement which is to retain ulster and win AI. When I read this story to be honest I think they will challenge very hard this year for the AI.

downtothecore (Down) - Posts:184 - 20/07/2017 07:51:33   2019717

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Replying To seanie_boy:  "If Mickey and the lads want to say a few prayers before games that's their own business. Who'd have thought that a whole bunch of Catholics would be at it! If there was a Protestant or 2 in the squad then I'd say the Hail Mary might be inappropriate but not the act of saying a prayer together. This is a closed doors and private act for these guys,I bet most of yez that are complaining don't say much when your favourite premiership player scores a goal and celebrates by blessing himself and looking skyward. Every single lad on that squad went to catholic primary and secondary schools and some to catholic university's so I'm sure they're not troubled by engaging in a group prayer at all. I'm sure they're touched by ye all being so concerned for them though."
And what about people who don't believe in god at all? I went to a Catholic secondary school and I don't believe in any god. I have no idea if there is anyone on the Tyrone panel in that position but surely you can see that by the whole group saying a prayer, it would potentially put anyone on the panel who may not believe in god, or any potential future players, in an akward position. What if a player decides it's not for and doesn't take part. Immediately that makes him "different" to the rest of the group. Surely that is not good for the team? Religion is a personal thing and should be kept personal to the individual.

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts:208 - 20/07/2017 08:16:11   2019721

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Replying To KK1926:  "In your opinion Wally. Lots of fellas tripping themselves up here trying to be modern.

How would the rosary offend a lapsed Catholic as one poster suggested? If they're lapse they just aren't pushed.

Also i'd say practising protestants would be pleased with a prayer. Of course the Our Father."
This has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be modern.

I just believe that religion should not be enforced in any aspect of public life, whether that be our schools, hospitals or sport. Not only today but in any time in our history. I think the worst aspects of Irish life came from this heavy dogma.

Also this was not just a deceit of the rosary that he has asked them to do, he has also clearly asked all the players to attend mass.

Now knowing the approach that Mickey takes to managing his team I would say that if an atheist player revolted against this ritual then he would not be playing football for Tyrone too much longer.

This just should not be happening but more than that I just wish our players could stop reporting on stuff like this as it is purely a distraction going into the quarter final.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts:265 - 20/07/2017 08:44:37   2019735

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Replying To Laois76:  "South Africa and Samoa unite in prayer at the end of their 2003 World Cup clash. To those who say spirituality should have nothing to do with sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei5uL0bSMNc"
And what if there was unbelievers on either team? Would it be acceptable for them not to take part? Even if it was acceptable, would it not mark those players out as different and not part of the group in the same way the others were? Why can't religious belief, which is an extremely personal thing, be kept personal?

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts:208 - 20/07/2017 08:59:10   2019741

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Replying To the_walls:  "And what if there was unbelievers on either team? Would it be acceptable for them not to take part? Even if it was acceptable, would it not mark those players out as different and not part of the group in the same way the others were? Why can't religious belief, which is an extremely personal thing, be kept personal?"
100% agree.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts:265 - 20/07/2017 10:17:16   2019789

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Replying To the_walls:  "And what if there was unbelievers on either team? Would it be acceptable for them not to take part? Even if it was acceptable, would it not mark those players out as different and not part of the group in the same way the others were? Why can't religious belief, which is an extremely personal thing, be kept personal?"
What respect and unity though. When all players are on the same wave length. I think atheists can even appreciate that and just take a moment's reflection rather than a prayer.

A scene like that is all about the group. The likes of yourself and Wally are all what about the individual, what about the individual? The individual doesn't have to pray to a God he doesn't believe in but he can draw strength from the unity of purpose.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 13:07:36   2019927

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Replying To Wally:  "This has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be modern.

I just believe that religion should not be enforced in any aspect of public life, whether that be our schools, hospitals or sport. Not only today but in any time in our history. I think the worst aspects of Irish life came from this heavy dogma.

Also this was not just a deceit of the rosary that he has asked them to do, he has also clearly asked all the players to attend mass.

Now knowing the approach that Mickey takes to managing his team I would say that if an atheist player revolted against this ritual then he would not be playing football for Tyrone too much longer.

This just should not be happening but more than that I just wish our players could stop reporting on stuff like this as it is purely a distraction going into the quarter final."
How many Irish Protestant rugby players from Ulster have stood with respect for Amhrán na bhFiann over the years despite it going against their culture? Because they know it's all about the team and is the anthem of the majority of players.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 13:15:44   2019936

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Replying To Laois76:  "How many Irish Protestant rugby players from Ulster have stood with respect for Amhrán na bhFiann over the years despite it going against their culture? Because they know it's all about the team and is the anthem of the majority of players."
Your post makes little to no sense.

Asking players to respect a national anthem for a couple of minutes is one thing, but expecting players to attend a religious service and pray to a God that they don't believe in is another.

You have used several phases such as unity, respect and players being on the same wave length, but you obviously only mean that these should apply to the Christians.

What about the unity, respect and wave length of the players who may not believe?

I don't care how strong of faith Mickey has it should not be forced upon his players unless they all share the same views.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts:265 - 20/07/2017 13:40:54   2019953

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Replying To Laois76:  "How many Irish Protestant rugby players from Ulster have stood with respect for Amhrán na bhFiann over the years despite it going against their culture? Because they know it's all about the team and is the anthem of the majority of players."
And to those who say prayer should be personal and not public it's a ridiculous argument in a pluralistic society.
Banning people from praying in public is equally as bad as the worst forms of Catholic censorship in Ireland in the 20th century.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 13:46:31   2019955

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Replying To Laois76:  "How many Irish Protestant rugby players from Ulster have stood with respect for Amhrán na bhFiann over the years despite it going against their culture? Because they know it's all about the team and is the anthem of the majority of players."
Good point to be fair.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts:800 - 20/07/2017 13:48:39   2019960

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Replying To Laois76:  "What respect and unity though. When all players are on the same wave length. I think atheists can even appreciate that and just take a moment's reflection rather than a prayer.

A scene like that is all about the group. The likes of yourself and Wally are all what about the individual, what about the individual? The individual doesn't have to pray to a God he doesn't believe in but he can draw strength from the unity of purpose."
Well way to characterise posters whom you have never met based on one narrow opinion that they have offered. We are all about the individual eh? How would you know?

I would argue that the opinions I have expressed are much more in keeping with a collective team ethos than the views you put forward. I am sure there is no issue within the Tyrone set up in relation to these prayers and what not but that is not the point. What if in the future, there is an individual who find these religious rituals very off putting? Should they just like it or lump it? Should they make their feelings known? Should they just go along with it and pretend it doesn't bother them? At the end of the day, they are to play football, to be part of a team playing sport, not to be part of a religious community. That is what going, to church mosque, temple, etc is for. If they come and out and say they are not comfortable with it they run the risk of being excluded from the team or being viewed as akward or disruption. At the very least they are viewed as separate to the rest of their team-mates. It would be similar if there was a ritual in the team backing a particular political party. It would be nonsense and would have nothing to do with the team as a group.

A scenario like this can be easily avoided by not engaging in rituals that are intrinsically linked to individual persons beliefs or thoughts. You can easily have team bonding exercises and rituals that do not involve religion, politics or anything else that is personal to each individual. And guess what, that is to the benefit of the team not the individual! It is all inclusive and doesn't discriminate against others who do not share you're religious scruples. It is the exact opposite of being all about the individual.

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts:208 - 20/07/2017 14:08:30   2019979

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Replying To the_walls:  "Well way to characterise posters whom you have never met based on one narrow opinion that they have offered. We are all about the individual eh? How would you know?

I would argue that the opinions I have expressed are much more in keeping with a collective team ethos than the views you put forward. I am sure there is no issue within the Tyrone set up in relation to these prayers and what not but that is not the point. What if in the future, there is an individual who find these religious rituals very off putting? Should they just like it or lump it? Should they make their feelings known? Should they just go along with it and pretend it doesn't bother them? At the end of the day, they are to play football, to be part of a team playing sport, not to be part of a religious community. That is what going, to church mosque, temple, etc is for. If they come and out and say they are not comfortable with it they run the risk of being excluded from the team or being viewed as akward or disruption. At the very least they are viewed as separate to the rest of their team-mates. It would be similar if there was a ritual in the team backing a particular political party. It would be nonsense and would have nothing to do with the team as a group.

A scenario like this can be easily avoided by not engaging in rituals that are intrinsically linked to individual persons beliefs or thoughts. You can easily have team bonding exercises and rituals that do not involve religion, politics or anything else that is personal to each individual. And guess what, that is to the benefit of the team not the individual! It is all inclusive and doesn't discriminate against others who do not share you're religious scruples. It is the exact opposite of being all about the individual."
Good man.

Literally couldn't have put it better myself.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts:265 - 20/07/2017 14:17:21   2019984

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Replying To Laois76:  "And to those who say prayer should be personal and not public it's a ridiculous argument in a pluralistic society.
Banning people from praying in public is equally as bad as the worst forms of Catholic censorship in Ireland in the 20th century."
And to those who say prayer should be personal and not public it's a ridiculous argument in a pluralistic society.
Banning people from praying in public is equally as bad as the worst forms of Catholic censorship in Ireland in the 20th century.

Not one person has suggested that people should be banned from praying in public, quit with the hysteria. What has been pointed out is that religion is a personal, private thing to each individual and should not be forced on a group. It should not be part of a football team's rituals, it should not influence public policy, it should not be something that any individual who does not share these beliefs should have any need to be cognizant of in public. I

f an individual wishes to pray in public, have at it. If a group of people want to come together to have an old pray, again have at it. It's normally referred to as going to church and I cannot see one position advocating that that should not be allowed.

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts:208 - 20/07/2017 14:20:53   2019986

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Bit of a storm in a teacup this. I wouldn't say Mickey or anyone in Tyrone forces anyone to take part in it.

Saying that if we had something like this in Donegal with a very publicly known atheist in Eamon McGee how would that fly? It creates a bit of unnecessary drama regardless of how Eamon or anyone in the camp would feel about it. Much like this with Tyrone, it's created something for people to talk about.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts:611 - 20/07/2017 15:01:09   2020016

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I think it was Ronan McNamee who mentioned the praying in an interview, probably wishes he hadn't now. It just shows why the managers and players are so guarded in interviews as things like this get picked up and overblown by the media and can be an unwelcome distraction.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts:835 - 20/07/2017 15:32:11   2020044

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "I think it was Ronan McNamee who mentioned the praying in an interview, probably wishes he hadn't now. It just shows why the managers and players are so guarded in interviews as things like this get picked up and overblown by the media and can be an unwelcome distraction."
it can work the other way too though. This time last year Tyrone were being talked up as legit AI contenders after the Ulster final. I'd say they'll be happy enough if the focus on them is about mars bars and rosary beeds instead of all the unnecessary hype.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1475 - 20/07/2017 15:40:58   2020051

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