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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "So every team sport in the world emphasises and rewards good play with home advantage (see Champions League, American Sports in particular) yet somehow in the GAA* it magically doesn't exist * if we ignore Davy Fits refusal to play Tipp in Thurles in the League Semi Final on Sunday week or Derek McGrath last year's Munster Final link"
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/04/2017 19:00:53
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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "So every team sport in the world emphasises and rewards good play with home advantage (see Champions League, American Sports in particular) yet somehow in the GAA* it magically doesn't exist * if we ignore Davy Fits refusal to play Tipp in Thurles in the League Semi Final on Sunday week or Derek McGrath last year's Munster Final link"
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1643 - 05/04/2017 19:39:08
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Hill.. be honest with yourself here now.
Youve said in loads of replies that home advantage is a "mentality" thing.. A psychological thing. You are dismissive
Yet, Would you agree that Dublin have a never say die attitude particularly in the league campaign so far (Tyrone in Croker, Kerry in Tralee, Monaghan in Clones) ?
If you agree with that, then is that not a state of mentality that the Dublin team have ?
In this situation, as weve seen by our results, Mentality is something that can be hugely advantageous to a team.
Would you agree that we bottled it after starting poorly against Tyrone and Kerry in 08 + 09 respectively ?
If you agree (and I don't see how you could argue the point) , then thatd show you again agree with mentality being a thing, only in a more negative light.
The point I'm making, Mentality can have a huge influence on a teams performance, how strong or weak that mentality is.
So, If, like you say home advantage is a "mentality" issue, or a "psychological" issue, you admit its a thing. It's real.
If its real, then you are completely contradicting yourself, and your argument (which, the vast majority have called BS on) is torn apart.
Therefore, there IS absolutely, such thing as home advantage.
waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 05/04/2017 19:41:44
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Wayno
anything can be a mentality advantage or disadvantage depending on what way you use your mind to view it.
I could actually say playing away is an advantage if I wanted and believe it that much that my mindset sees it that way quite easily. Take a view on it like this if i get put up in a fancy hotel, nice bed, don't have to cook my breakfast next morning, don't have to dress kids feed them, can go for but of a walk relax and then switch on to the game no stressors of family life it's like being on holiday which everybody finds relaxing, in a club scenario I can use the midset that I'm going to a new ground to play before people who have never seen me play before so I want to have them walking away after the match thinking man that number 11 was some player what were they calling him again. Could also say playing at home brings added pressure that you dont need like lads from the pub will be there watching if I mess up they will be giving me stick on Saturday night. See wayno the point is it's all dependent on what way you choose to view it, that's why county teams have sports psychologist with them to change negative perceptions into positive ones, anybody's mind can change if they want it to.
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/04/2017 20:53:39
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Replying To Whammo86: "That comment is ridiculous, home advantage is observable in practically every sport across the world.
The largest reason for home advantage gets attributed to referees. It's been shown that marginal decisions tend to go with the home team.
In professional sports the size of crowd has a bearing on the extent of home advantage. Maybe explains why it's less observable in GAA."
Again that's hearsay and a mentality issue
NEXT PLEASE!!!
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts:11828 - 05/04/2017 18:50:52 1976130
No hill, not hearsay; it's a fact. It's irrelevant whatever the reasons are " a mentality issue ". Home teams have an advantage
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2459 - 05/04/2017 21:11:10
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Replying To hill16no1man: "Again that's hearsay and a mentality issue
NEXT PLEASE!!!" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-985X.2009.00604.x/abstract
Nah mate sorry you're just wrong about that that.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 05/04/2017 21:33:41
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Wayno
anything can be a mentality advantage or disadvantage depending on what way you use your mind to view it.
I could actually say playing away is an advantage if I wanted and believe it that much that my mindset sees it that way quite easily.
hill. We're not talking about what "can be" and "could be". We're talking about FACTS! I could convince myself that the Earth's flat, but it doesn't make it so.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2459 - 05/04/2017 21:34:10
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Wayno
anything can be a mentality advantage or disadvantage depending on what way you use your mind to view it.
I could actually say playing away is an advantage if I wanted and believe it that much that my mindset sees it that way quite easily.
hill. We're not talking about what "can be" and "could be". We're talking about FACTS! I could convince myself that the Earth's flat, but it doesn't make it so." So please tell me how there is a physical advantage to playing at home over the other team?
All this talk but that's all it is I ain't heard one actual physical advantage
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/04/2017 21:47:03
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Replying To Whammo86: "http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-985X.2009.00604.x/abstract
Nah mate sorry you're just wrong about that that." That extract isn't from some online blog either. It's from an academic library.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wiley_%26_Sons
Home field advantage is a real thing and it's not just down to psychology, it's also down to referees bias.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 05/04/2017 21:56:32
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Replying To gunman: " Replying To JoeSoap: "Can't really speak for other counties but I've done a bit of research on Donegal myself because of what felt like a terrible record in Letterkenny that we have. I went back to 2009 because that's as far as Wiki had a breakdown of matches and venues! I only included the standard fixtures, so no semis or finals. So since 2009, Donegal have played 63 matches in the league:
At home
Played: 31
Win: 17
Loss: 7
Draw: 7
Win %: 55%
Away:
Played: 32
Win: 12
Loss: 19
Draw: 1
Win %: 38%
So on the face of it, we have a much better record at home than we do away. Coupled with that, you can see we're much more likely to actually lose away from home whereas we have a higher number of draws within the county. The interesting bit for Donegal is when you look at the different "home" matches we actually play.
Ballybofey
Played: 13
Win: 10
Loss: 1
Draw: 2
Win %: 77%
Ballyshannon
Played: 8
Win: 6
Loss: 1
Draw: 1
Win %: 75%
Letterkenny:
Played: 8
Win: 1
Loss: 5
Draw: 2
Win %: 13%
Our sole win in Letterkenny came against Monaghan in 2014. We have a fantastic record in Ballyshannon with our loss there coming against the Dubs in 2009. And our loss in Ballybofey came in 2010 against Down.
So overall for Donegal, I'd say home advantage is a huge plus for us, as long as it's not Letterkenny. The record there is pretty shocking." We beat Kerry in the league in Letterkenny in 2007"
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 06/04/2017 11:49:15
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Replying To Whammo86: "That extract isn't from some online blog either. It's from an academic library.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wiley_%26_Sons
Home field advantage is a real thing and it's not just down to psychology, it's also down to referees bias." Interesting that it seems more down to 'home crowd' advantage rather than the surroundings like is often stated.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 06/04/2017 12:17:49
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Totally agree with hill16man, home advantage is nonsense, a player has the same ability wherever he plays,
Teddy5 (Wexford) - Posts: 122 - 06/04/2017 12:42:24
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Replying To Teddy5: "Totally agree with hill16man, home advantage is nonsense, a player has the same ability wherever he plays," So then why does empirical evidence from practically every sport say that home advantage matters?
benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 06/04/2017 13:42:52
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Not only is there no such thing as home advantage, there's no such as thing as footballs either. You've just been psychologically conditioned to think there is. In reality football is a load of lads running around kicking nothing. Doesn't matter what evidence says otherwise, that's the reality.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12116 - 06/04/2017 13:59:19
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Replying To benjyyy: "So then why does empirical evidence from practically every sport say that home advantage matters?" Maybe players, especially in professional sports, don't have the same level of effort wherever they play? Apologies for bringing soccer into this but this season Burnley have got 32 points at home and 3 away from the same number of games, Leicester 30 at home and 6 away! I don't think getting marginal refereeing decisions explains that. I think for most intercounry teams the effort is always there, both home and away, and that is why there is very little difference in results.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 06/04/2017 13:59:52
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Replying To benjyyy: "So then why does empirical evidence from practically every sport say that home advantage matters?" What evidence physically?
People keep saying there is but yet can't give one simple fact of evidence physically to give you an advantage.
because more teams may have won at home than away only proves the point that its a mindset issue not proved the fact there's any physical advantage.
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/04/2017 14:12:12
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It's easy to say things like home comforts, such as having the same familiar matchday routine when you're playing at home help but there's not a lot of evidence to suggest it. Similarly there isn't a whole lot of evidence to show that longer trips to get to a venue (even crossing time zones etc) have a negative effect on an away team.
Most of the evidence for home advantage is based on the influence of the larger home crowd and on the referee favouring the home team - unless you look at individual sports with greater variance in playing surfaces and courses like alpine skiing, golf and winter sports.
Anyway, despite the athletes' common beliefs, only a small proportion of the variance in home advantage can be explained by travel-related factors and, therefore, competition is only slightly disrupted by including long travel distances for competitive events.
Home Advantage and Sports Performance: Evidence, Causes and Psychological Implications
Whereas the home advantage in soccer is a well-documented phenomenon, there is little evidence on which factor plays the major role in its determination. The main mechanisms identified in the literature appear to be crowd support, familiarity with the stadium and travel fatigue, but it remains great uncertainty on whether and to what extent each of these factors contributes to the home advantage.
Does the Home Advantage Depend on Crowd Support? Evidence from Same-Stadium Derbies
This is the most obvious factor involved with home advantage and one that fans certainly believe to be dominant. However the precise way in which crowd support has an effect has been difficult to pinpoint. For example the relationship with crowd size is unclear and the advantage has been shown to operate even with very small crowds. In addition to the size of the crowd, its density, intensity of support and proximity to the field of play are all factors that need to be considered. Likewise, it is not known whether the primary effect of the crowd is to give an advantage to the home team or a disadvantage to the away team and whether this is conveyed directly to the players or via referee decisions influenced by the crowd (see referee bias below). It is possible that the introduction of all-seater stadiums has modified the crowd effect.
Home Advantage in Football: A Current Review of an Unsolved Puzzle
I provided empirical evidence that referees' decisions in German professional soccer are influenced by the preferences of the crowd. The social atmosphere in the stadium leads referees into favoritism although being impartial is optimal for them to maximize their re-appointment probability. Conform with the preferences of the crowd, they lengthen exiting games and favor the home team by allowing most time when the home team is behind by one goal and by prolonging a drawn match when the home team is more likely to score next. This difference is most severe in stadiums in which the physical distance between the referee and the crowd is smallest and when relatively fewer supporters of the visiting team attend the game.
In Support of the Supporters? Do Social Forces Shape Decisions of the Impartial?
if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 06/04/2017 14:13:03
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Replying To MesAmis: "Interesting that it seems more down to 'home crowd' advantage rather than the surroundings like is often stated." Haha home crowd advantage
2009 all ireland quarter final v Kerry
croke park sold out with 70 thousand plus dublin supporters we even started the game 1/3 favourites (another ridiculous thing people buy into the bookies are never wrong haha yeah sure if that was the case they would be out of business as most people back the favourites haha) the vocal support did what ahem after ten minutes the match was over we were half way to a hiding already. Kerry were the better team on the day and they used the whole crowd being overwhelmingly packed full of Dublin supporters as motivation, just another psychological issue that's all
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/04/2017 14:22:09
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Replying To Breffni39: "Not only is there no such thing as home advantage, there's no such as thing as footballs either. You've just been psychologically conditioned to think there is. In reality football is a load of lads running around kicking nothing. Doesn't matter what evidence says otherwise, that's the reality." I think you need to visit a psychologist my friend, oh they do exist it's a fact
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/04/2017 15:26:14
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Replying To hill16no1man: "I think you need to visit a psychologist my friend, oh they do exist it's a fact" He's satirising you.
Seriously you're attitude is really bad.
I think something therefore I am correct and everyone else is wrong.
You dismiss research into the subject as hear say.
It'd be funny only the sort of attitude you have many others have too and it's actually a menace to society.
It's a similar attitude that has people not vaccinating their children for measles because of some debunked link that was made between the mmr and autism.
Referee bias is the main cause of home advantage, its been reported in more than one study across multiple sports all of which are a lot more rigorous than your Kerry beat Dublin in 2009 analysis.
You're wrong and whether you choice to agree is your prerogative.
Further debate with you is pointless because you're not remotely close to operating at reasonable rational level with regards this.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 06/04/2017 16:44:13
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