National Forum

12 stadia to make up Ireland's 2023 RWC Bid

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Replying To gotmilk:  "
Replying To ROS1:  "[quote=ormondbannerman:  "Pretty clear the Irish bid team were pretty navive while the were making so called emotional support videos. France were doing the deals to get the votes. The fact that ireland couldn't get one vote out of the pro 12 countries tells it own story. One of the main things the media kept banging on about the bid was how the whole country would buy into it. Well looking at the venues the choose the way from donegal/tryone down to waterford was excluded from the bid which makes alot of people not to disappointed with the result only the disappointed with the waste of time and money it took.
ROS1 (Roscommon) - Posts:1023 - 16/11/2017 15:24:01
What venues should have been picked that were not?"
Newry, Armagh, omagh, cavan, sligo, roscommon, thurles, tullamore and portloise possibly more."
Newry, Armagh and Cavan yes. Omagh I would have above Celtic park but not sure if it would be a big enough venue or town. Sligo as a town is more than capable of holding it but the ground would need serious work. Would roscommon be big enough? I assumed that thurles and portlaois were already on the bid."]Derry not a big enough town just Irelands fourth biggest city.

gunman (Donegal) - 17/11/2017 00:09:12    2062801

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Replying To MedwayIrish:  "Scotland are struggling with attendances as well, Soma. In fact they're the only one of the "Lions" nations who can't even sell out their own stadium consistently for an All Blacks visit. I think the IRB chose well. We couldn't offer them more than a couple of stadia to be honest, the rest were wishful thinking. South Africa is a crime ridden country and that would put off a huge amount of visitors. France on the other hand, is a wonderful country with multiple decent venues in great locations. Also, selfishly for me, only a couple of hours from Ebbsfleet International. I wouldn't even need to travel into London to get there. Happy days!"
You make some good points but I certainly wouldn't be rushing to France for a World Cup as it can hardly be considered the safest at the min either

tiobraid (Tipperary) - 17/11/2017 08:31:30    2062811

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Sorry lads there is no way Ireland could ever host an event like this. As much as I would like to see it on this Island it will just never happen. Public transport is shocking outside of Dublin. A few years ago I was heading to Galway, decided I would take a train from Sligo to Galway. Turns out the only way I was going to be able to do it would be to go from sligo to dublin and then from Dublin to Galway. The worst bit is the transport infrastructure in the south is 100 times better than it is in the North. You can't get a bus after 7 and you may forget about trying to get a train at any time if it's not going to Coleraine, Ballymena or Dublin."
That's probably the best point anyone has made in fairness. You couldn't be carting tens of thousands of people around Ireland in buses. The logistics of that would be a nightmare!

tiobraid (Tipperary) - 17/11/2017 08:37:10    2062812

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You make some good points but I certainly wouldn't be rushing to France for a World Cup as it can hardly be considered the safest at the min either
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts:2202 - 17/11/2017 08:31:30


In fairness to the French they hosted Euro2016, which would be a much more high profile event, during a state of emergency and did a fantastic job.

MesAmis (Dublin) - 17/11/2017 09:50:25    2062819

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How did they imagine that a bid based on aspiration and whimsy was going to trump solid facts. 8 votes says it all.

dead_as_dodos (Carlow) - 17/11/2017 10:35:52    2062827

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The reason why it failed is that we don't have any venues - what we think is a venue or a great stadium is not on the world stadium.....
According to the report :-

1. Fitzgerald stadium doesn't even rate..... doesn't even get 1 star, in their opinion it needs to be raised to the ground.... there are only 4,000 seats
2. We are far too reliant on terracing.......
3. Paric Caoimh didn't fit meet their standards....
4. Infrastructure is poor
5. Really nowlan Park is going to host a fixture ... too old and dated
6. Salthill has massive problems

It begs the question apart from Croke Park what is the second best GAA venue in the country

and as a regular Avia attendener - it too has many problems

we never stood a chance with years of government neglect

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - 17/11/2017 10:50:11    2062829

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Replying To ROS1:  "
Replying To ormondbannerman:  "Pretty clear the Irish bid team were pretty navive while the were making so called emotional support videos. France were doing the deals to get the votes. The fact that ireland couldn't get one vote out of the pro 12 countries tells it own story. One of the main things the media kept banging on about the bid was how the whole country would buy into it. Well looking at the venues the choose the way from donegal/tryone down to waterford was excluded from the bid which makes alot of people not to disappointed with the result only the disappointed with the waste of time and money it took.
ROS1 (Roscommon) - Posts:1023 - 16/11/2017 15:24:01
What venues should have been picked that were not?"
Newry, Armagh, omagh, cavan, sligo, roscommon, thurles, tullamore and portloise possibly more."
I literally don't think there's anywhere in Ireland that could cope with a concentrated influx of fans for more than a couple of days, let alone a month long tournament.

The hotel occupancy rates in Dublin are 86% link. Would the extra 14% be enough even to host preliminary games, let alone the latter stages?

Of the group of cities / towns listed as potential venues above, Newry is the biggest (by population). I struggled badly to get accommodation there for the St. Vincents v Ballinderry club semi final a few years ago. How could Newry (and by extension, the others suggested) host a world cup game if there's limited availability for a club game?

There's no harm in being ambitious and making a submission but was it overly optimistic / realistic? Would we actually have been able to host it if we got it?

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - 17/11/2017 11:27:22    2062843

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I literally don't think there's anywhere in Ireland that could cope with a concentrated influx of fans for more than a couple of days, let alone a month long tournament.

The hotel occupancy rates in Dublin are 86% link. Would the extra 14% be enough even to host preliminary games, let alone the latter stages?

Of the group of cities / towns listed as potential venues above, Newry is the biggest (by population). I struggled badly to get accommodation there for the St. Vincents v Ballinderry club semi final a few years ago. How could Newry (and by extension, the others suggested) host a world cup game if there's limited availability for a club game?

There's no harm in being ambitious and making a submission but was it overly optimistic / realistic? Would we actually have been able to host it if we got it?
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts:301 - 17/11/2017 11:27:22


You have to remember that the amounts of people that the IRFU/Government claimed were going to come because of the tournament weren't very accuarate. As in they weren't going to be a massive extra influx.

The fans wouldn't need to be squeezed into the remaining 14% occupancy because a lot of people would not come to Ireland during the tournament because they cannot find room as the tournament fans have booked the places out.

So in terms of tourism it was never going to bring the fanciful amounts of extra tourists that were claimed. At the end of the day there's only a finite amount of beds in the country that it may well have filled which would have been great, but you're talking about a small enough increase in numbers that would actually even itself out over time.

MesAmis (Dublin) - 17/11/2017 12:03:00    2062849

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Kurt

Newry has a number of establishments on its door step, and a number of fantastic campsites including Kilbroney which is only 7/8 miles away and is massive, Has a trainstation, bus station and ample parking ( which most if not all grounds don't)

Armagh has a fantastic ground with a control room, wifi and security set-up.... ample parking, bus station but no trainstation, but with a station in lurganand portadown , it might have worked..... I was disappointed when Armagh was discounted so quickly by the southern media..... the vast majority who probably have never visited the City or ground.......

But well done Meath - designing and building an all-seater ground which is what these tournaments require

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - 17/11/2017 12:22:29    2062854

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Replying To cuchulainn35:  "Kurt

Newry has a number of establishments on its door step, and a number of fantastic campsites including Kilbroney which is only 7/8 miles away and is massive, Has a trainstation, bus station and ample parking ( which most if not all grounds don't)

Armagh has a fantastic ground with a control room, wifi and security set-up.... ample parking, bus station but no trainstation, but with a station in lurganand portadown , it might have worked..... I was disappointed when Armagh was discounted so quickly by the southern media..... the vast majority who probably have never visited the City or ground.......

But well done Meath - designing and building an all-seater ground which is what these tournaments require"
I was just picking Newry as the most populous proposed city / town on the list. I've been through Newry several times but have little knowledge of the place besides twice looking for accommodation there and twice being faced with either nothing available or paying over the odds. These were my experiences, yours may differ. I appreciate that there may be campsites located locally but to use these there would be a heavy reliance on private transport (coaches, taxis, rentals etc.) and would camping really be palatable to travelling rugby fans?

Armagh is roughly half the size of Newry (population wise). I'd imagine it would have a commensurate level of hotels / lodgings which is one issue. It's also nearly an hour by bus from Portadown train station. I've been through Armagh several times and find it a real traffic bottleneck (not unlike a lot of towns on the island, I suppose) which doesn't exactly make it accessible to travelling fans. I haven't been in the Athletic Grounds since it was done up but I'd argue it could be a fantastic stadium but without the infrastructure around it, is it really a viable option?

I'm not picking on Newry or quickly dismissing Armagh like the southern media allegedly did. I'd argue that none of the proposed towns (with the possible exception of Port Laoise) would have the infrastructure to host games or base fans etc. I even argued that Dublin mightn't have the capacity to do so (as the assumed centre of the whole tournament). Not sure why you're mentioning Meath, but I'd probably have similar concerns if Navan were proposed as a venue.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - 17/11/2017 14:38:16    2062883

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Replying To cuchulainn35:  "The reason why it failed is that we don't have any venues - what we think is a venue or a great stadium is not on the world stadium.....
According to the report :-

1. Fitzgerald stadium doesn't even rate..... doesn't even get 1 star, in their opinion it needs to be raised to the ground.... there are only 4,000 seats
2. We are far too reliant on terracing.......
3. Paric Caoimh didn't fit meet their standards....
4. Infrastructure is poor
5. Really nowlan Park is going to host a fixture ... too old and dated
6. Salthill has massive problems

It begs the question apart from Croke Park what is the second best GAA venue in the country

and as a regular Avia attendener - it too has many problems

we never stood a chance with years of government neglect"
It's Pairc ui Chaoimh. I don't know how there's even a debate about the Islands second best GAA stadium. They just spent the bones of a 100,000 million on it. Have you not seen it?
The likes of Newry, Armagh Sligo ect were never on the radar to host a match. It ought to have been just Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Limerick, Galway and L'Derry...Kilkenny and Kilarney were tacked on for Tourism reasons.

bloodyban (Limerick) - 17/11/2017 15:53:19    2062896

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Replying To bloodyban:  "
Replying To gotmilk:  "[quote=ROS1:  "[quote=ormondbannerman:  "Pretty clear the Irish bid team were pretty navive while the were making so called emotional support videos. France were doing the deals to get the votes. The fact that ireland couldn't get one vote out of the pro 12 countries tells it own story. One of the main things the media kept banging on about the bid was how the whole country would buy into it. Well looking at the venues the choose the way from donegal/tryone down to waterford was excluded from the bid which makes alot of people not to disappointed with the result only the disappointed with the waste of time and money it took.
ROS1 (Roscommon) - Posts:1023 - 16/11/2017 15:24:01
What venues should have been picked that were not?"
Newry, Armagh, omagh, cavan, sligo, roscommon, thurles, tullamore and portloise possibly more."
Newry, Armagh and Cavan yes. Omagh I would have above Celtic park but not sure if it would be a big enough venue or town. Sligo as a town is more than capable of holding it but the ground would need serious work. Would roscommon be big enough? I assumed that thurles and portlaois were already on the bid."]This is the type of fantasy thinking that killed the bid. We Irish have a good detachment from reality when it suits us. Blame the famine again or 1000 years of so called subjugation (myth)from the only tier 1 country that voted for us.'
Roscommon, Sligo..Portlaoise are ye for real. How about Portarlington and longford town, maybe termonfeckin and tuam stadium..Thurles was ruled out because it has no hotels. This wasn't the fleadh ceoil. What rugby players ever came out of those towns or the likes of Tyrone. Anyway it's done."]Kilkenny, killarney castlebar or even galway or derry aren't exactly hugh cities. None of the venues would have been able to have accommodation the croads on there own. What does it matter how many rugby players come out of a particular county.

ROS1 (Roscommon) - 17/11/2017 17:16:38    2062902

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It was 100% a pipe dream from the very beginning. When New Zealand hosted the RWC in 2011, a number of officials from Ireland saw games being played in stadia with grass banks. They were like "the GAA have grounds like this back home. We can host an event like this."

Basing our ability to host a tournament based on another countries most basic of stadia was not exactly the best starting point. "Hey World Rugby, we can match the grass banks of 2011. C'mon, it will be great craic. We can all enjoy a massive party!"

MISTAKE 1: The above basing our ability to host the tournamant based on grass banks in New Zealand stadia for some of the lesser games.

MISTAKE 2: After getting the backing of the government for the bid, it was completely ridiculous to expect to host the tournament wit so few top class stadia. Croke Park and Lansdowne Road in Dublin and Cork are the only proper grounds.

For our bid to have had any chance of success, Scotland and Wales should have been brought on board. The Millenium Stadium in the past has hosted RWC games as recently as 2015 when England were hosts and also in 2007 when France previously hosted the RWC. In '07 the hosts France actually had to travel to Wales in the knockout stage!

The Millenium Stadium hosted the RWC final and most of the big games in 1999. The IRFU/Irish delegation should have been promoting to Scotland and Wales the idea of RWC quarter-finals in Croke Park, Aviva, Millenium Stadium and Murrayfield. It would have been a great oppotunity for 3 of the top tier nations who realistically cannot host the RWC on it's own.

It was obvious from the very very start. The lack of vision to bring Scotland and Wales on board scuppered the plans. As outlined above, Soctland and Wales could have hosted a quarter-final each along with possibly a quarter of the group games each.

The RWC semi-finals and final then would have been staged in Croke Park. Similar to how England stage the semi-finals and final in Twickenham.

Ireland most definitely can bid again for this tournament. Ideally the next time, Limerick, Galway and Belfast will have stadia along with Cork and Dublin while overtures are also made to Scotland and Wales to support our bid along with the carrot of them hosting games as well.

legendzxix (Kerry) - 17/11/2017 17:21:47    2062904

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Replying To ormondbannerman:  "
Replying To ROS1:  "[quote=ormondbannerman:  "Pretty clear the Irish bid team were pretty navive while the were making so called emotional support videos. France were doing the deals to get the votes. The fact that ireland couldn't get one vote out of the pro 12 countries tells it own story. One of the main things the media kept banging on about the bid was how the whole country would buy into it. Well looking at the venues the choose the way from donegal/tryone down to waterford was excluded from the bid which makes alot of people not to disappointed with the result only the disappointed with the waste of time and money it took.
ROS1 (Roscommon) - Posts:1023 - 16/11/2017 15:24:01
What venues should have been picked that were not?"
Newry, Armagh, omagh, cavan, sligo, roscommon, thurles, tullamore and portloise possibly more."
Most of those towns are not big enough. Thurles has nowhere near enough beds in the town for a world cup game with 50000 visitors nearly all who would need a bed even taking into account a lot staying elsewhere. That isn't good enough for a tournament when most people will not have cars here to travel at a game. Thurles works for gaa games where 95% of people at games travel to and from thurles on the day of a game.
Tullamore not big enough stadium and not enough accommodation
None f these venues would be better than what were included in the bid"]Derry capacity is smaller then tullamore and Kilkenny capacity is similar so that point makes no sense. The bigger games were going to in the 4 biggest cities only the smaller games which would get no where near 50000 were ever going to be held in a regional venue and attract mainly a irish local crowd. The likes of castlebar even dublin and galway on a busy weekend would fail to have the hotel capacity to hold the crowds. The would need the help of neighbouring towns to hold the crowds. Surely anyone wishing to host a major tournament would have proper public transport lined up to take people from there venues to there hotels

ROS1 (Roscommon) - 17/11/2017 17:28:44    2062905

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I literally don't think there's anywhere in Ireland that could cope with a concentrated influx of fans for more than a couple of days, let alone a month long tournament.

The hotel occupancy rates in Dublin are 86% link. Would the extra 14% be enough even to host preliminary games, let alone the latter stages?

Of the group of cities / towns listed as potential venues above, Newry is the biggest (by population). I struggled badly to get accommodation there for the St. Vincents v Ballinderry club semi final a few years ago. How could Newry (and by extension, the others suggested) host a world cup game if there's limited availability for a club game?

There's no harm in being ambitious and making a submission but was it overly optimistic / realistic? Would we actually have been able to host it if we got it?
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts:301 - 17/11/2017 11:27:22


You have to remember that the amounts of people that the IRFU/Government claimed were going to come because of the tournament weren't very accuarate. As in they weren't going to be a massive extra influx.

The fans wouldn't need to be squeezed into the remaining 14% occupancy because a lot of people would not come to Ireland during the tournament because they cannot find room as the tournament fans have booked the places out.

So in terms of tourism it was never going to bring the fanciful amounts of extra tourists that were claimed. At the end of the day there's only a finite amount of beds in the country that it may well have filled which would have been great, but you're talking about a small enough increase in numbers that would actually even itself out over time."
Good point we may well have dogded a bullet losing a lot of money on holding the tournament. You would hope the money would now be put into promoting sport and helying fight the amount of youth obesity in the country

ROS1 (Roscommon) - 17/11/2017 17:36:40    2062907

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I literally don't think there's anywhere in Ireland that could cope with a concentrated influx of fans for more than a couple of days, let alone a month long tournament.

The hotel occupancy rates in Dublin are 86% link. Would the extra 14% be enough even to host preliminary games, let alone the latter stages?

Of the group of cities / towns listed as potential venues above, Newry is the biggest (by population). I struggled badly to get accommodation there for the St. Vincents v Ballinderry club semi final a few years ago. How could Newry (and by extension, the others suggested) host a world cup game if there's limited availability for a club game?

There's no harm in being ambitious and making a submission but was it overly optimistic / realistic? Would we actually have been able to host it if we got it?
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts:301 - 17/11/2017 11:27:22


You have to remember that the amounts of people that the IRFU/Government claimed were going to come because of the tournament weren't very accuarate. As in they weren't going to be a massive extra influx.

The fans wouldn't need to be squeezed into the remaining 14% occupancy because a lot of people would not come to Ireland during the tournament because they cannot find room as the tournament fans have booked the places out.

So in terms of tourism it was never going to bring the fanciful amounts of extra tourists that were claimed. At the end of the day there's only a finite amount of beds in the country that it may well have filled which would have been great, but you're talking about a small enough increase in numbers that would actually even itself out over time."
Good point we may well have dogded a bullet losing a lot of money on holding the tournament. You would hope the money would now be put into promoting sport and helying fight the amount of youth obesity in the country

ROS1 (Roscommon) - 17/11/2017 17:37:23    2062908

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Replying To bloodyban:  "It's Pairc ui Chaoimh. I don't know how there's even a debate about the Islands second best GAA stadium. They just spent the bones of a 100,000 million on it. Have you not seen it?
The likes of Newry, Armagh Sligo ect were never on the radar to host a match. It ought to have been just Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Limerick, Galway and L'Derry...Kilkenny and Kilarney were tacked on for Tourism reasons."
"L'Derry" you say ..... hilarious.

Only stadiums for to host games are Cromer, Aviva, Thomond for smaller games, and maybe Casement. Cork is just modern on one side. After that it's like the rest of GAA stadiums, cold, open, concrete terraced jungles with third world facilities.

And despite this, we could quite easily have swung the tournament if the Welsh hadn't voted for SA. That 6 point swing would have eliminated SA and we'd surely have gotten the NZ second preference votes which would have put us well in contention, 4 behind with 7 votes still to play for.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - 17/11/2017 20:02:47    2062930

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Nowlan Park being on the list of stadia summed up why the bid was never going to win. Don't get me wrong, I love the place to bits and it looks a picture on TV on summer's evenings with a full house, but (speaking for the "new stand" side which is where I go) the toilet facilities are third world, the shops/kiosks are a free-for-all with no queueing system, the walk up to the stand is a stony incline which is treacherous on rainy days and the stand is propped up by massive pillars which block out about 5-10 metres of the pitch for anyone unfortunate enough to be stuck behind it. And you can be damn sure the deficiencies I've listed above are replicated in practically every other GAA ground on the list except perhaps Croke Park. Some of those points might seem petty but we're trying to host one of the world's biggest sporting events with half-arsed stadia, plus we're trying to do it on the cheap. To our shame, GAA fans will and do put up with any ould sh*te that's presented to us as "outstanding facilities" but you can't fool these people.

Not to mention the absolute certainty that our bus and rail unions would use the occasion of a world cup to go on a national strike. We're light years behind.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - 19/11/2017 08:50:21    2062987

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Replying To : ballydalane (Kilkenny) GAA fans will and do put up with any ould sh*te that's presented to us as "outstanding facilities" but you can't fool these people.

Well compared to the facilities professional sports like Rugby & Soccer, have provided the people of Ireland with; GAA Facilities are 'Outstanding'

Most GAA's Clubs in Ireland have two full size pitches, many have floodlighting, 4G Pitches, Gyms, Sports Halls. All Done by fundraising events within our communities and alot of commitee work to get the best goverment/Sports/Lottery Grants available to aid development of ALL our community Hub's and facilities.

In my own town, the local soccer club has one pitch, that they rent at minimal cost from the local council, they don't have any other expenses as the council maintain it .
Compare that my GAA club that has 2 Full Size pitches, 1 with a covered stand that hold 1000 + spectators, 1 Floodlit full size training pitch & one 3/4 size floodlit 4G pitch + Changing rooms, Clubrooms and Bar.
We have a development plan (as most GAA clubs now have) to build a Sportshall & Gymn + targets to enhance other aspects of our club. We a small rural club, yet we have developeded and pushed our club forward, with lots of hard work by commited members & maximising the number of people in our local community to buy into our vision/s and supporting us along the way. This is the same for many clubs in the GAA, we are the GAA, it's really is up for Rugby & Soccer as professional sports, to step up to the mark and develop their own facilities.
Why top sportsmen & women (many who become millionaires) from Rugby & Soccer don't put any (significant) money back into their sports back where they came from, is what I see as one of the great failures of professionalism. What we in the GAA spend month's & month's and sometimes many years , in trying to find ways to bring in money/funding/grants to develop our facilities & grow, a professional sports man/woman could dwarf that fundraising with personal cash input/s to help develop Rugby, Soccer or whatever their professional code. Yet as professional sports they have limited grounds/facilities of a standard comparable?
People may slate some of County grounds as 'dumps' with 'third world facilities', but they are all being redeveloped, again where are all the Socccer/Rugby grounds that are remotely comparable?
Fact is the GAA and all its stadia and facilities will develop re-develop and grow, question is will Rugby & Soccer ever step up to the mark............

IrelandUnited (Tyrone) - 19/11/2017 13:58:07    2062999

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Think you're missing the point United Ireland. This is about stadiums, not facilities generally in small towns and villages. No question the GAA has superb facilities acrosss the country that are generally far superior to soccer and rugby.

However, what passes for major stadiums are pitiful and the reason is because every county wants there own one. Concrete jungles with third world facilities is what they mostly are. All they have going for them is big capacities but that's because most are over terraced with stand seats often being wooden benches or worse in the case of Castlebar, which embarrassingly was one of the proposed venues, is concrete slabs.

Even Croke Park is quite dated, but I'm not advocating redevelopment as priorities rest elsewhere, compared to stadiums all over France which I was in last year. The sight lines in the lower tiers of Croke Park especially at the ends are very poor with the seats not being steep enough and all facing straight on rather than being tilted towards the centre. Compared to France and SA we weren't at the races when it came to stadiums.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - 19/11/2017 15:24:43    2063004

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