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Replying To MesAmis: "Irish isn't taught brilliantly by some teachers etc etc etc.
However if you've been taught Irish to some degree for 12/13 years of your schooling and don't have more than a couple of words it's not entirely the system's fault." I have different degrees, can speak French pretty ok, slight bit of German, all from only doing a few years at higher level many moons ago. The system of teaching Irish is confrontational from get go, and leaving and long bitter after taste, and actually holding the language in distain because of how it was thought.
Nothing can change that easily and I doubt my generation will change its mindset when it comes to it. I also believe it has to be a optional subject like any other language for the leaving cert, otherwise you are forcing people to take a language that has little advantages in career prospects, rather then having it as a option which would make it more accessible and actually could add extra points more people would study it, once it was thought properly. For me the Irish language boat has sailed, but if it is to have any future it needs a radical overhaul.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 17/10/2016 14:18:44
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I have different degrees, can speak French pretty ok, slight bit of German, all from only doing a few years at higher level many moons ago. The system of teaching Irish is confrontational from get go, and leaving and long bitter after taste, and actually holding the language in distain because of how it was thought.
Nothing can change that easily and I doubt my generation will change its mindset when it comes to it. I also believe it has to be a optional subject like any other language for the leaving cert, otherwise you are forcing people to take a language that has little advantages in career prospects, rather then having it as a option which would make it more accessible and actually could add extra points more people would study it, once it was thought properly. For me the Irish language boat has sailed, but if it is to have any future it needs a radical overhaul.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts:9604 - 17/10/2016 14:18:44
People often confuse their experience, sometimes many years ago, with everyone's experience.
I think that is often the issue with any debate regarding the Irish language.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13718 - 17/10/2016 14:51:07
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Replying To MesAmis: "I have different degrees, can speak French pretty ok, slight bit of German, all from only doing a few years at higher level many moons ago. The system of teaching Irish is confrontational from get go, and leaving and long bitter after taste, and actually holding the language in distain because of how it was thought.
Nothing can change that easily and I doubt my generation will change its mindset when it comes to it. I also believe it has to be a optional subject like any other language for the leaving cert, otherwise you are forcing people to take a language that has little advantages in career prospects, rather then having it as a option which would make it more accessible and actually could add extra points more people would study it, once it was thought properly. For me the Irish language boat has sailed, but if it is to have any future it needs a radical overhaul.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts:9604 - 17/10/2016 14:18:44
People often confuse their experience, sometimes many years ago, with everyone's experience.
I think that is often the issue with any debate regarding the Irish language." Often the same people as well mes!
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 17/10/2016 15:23:15
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Replying To royaldunne: "I have different degrees, can speak French pretty ok, slight bit of German, all from only doing a few years at higher level many moons ago. The system of teaching Irish is confrontational from get go, and leaving and long bitter after taste, and actually holding the language in distain because of how it was thought.
Nothing can change that easily and I doubt my generation will change its mindset when it comes to it. I also believe it has to be a optional subject like any other language for the leaving cert, otherwise you are forcing people to take a language that has little advantages in career prospects, rather then having it as a option which would make it more accessible and actually could add extra points more people would study it, once it was thought properly. For me the Irish language boat has sailed, but if it is to have any future it needs a radical overhaul." I barely passed Honours Irish when I did my Leaving Cert, and that was the end of that. Then somewhere in my 20s, I dunno how it happened but I decided I was going to relearn Irish. I discovered lots of bits of grammar that either weren't taught or weren't adhered to by teachers.
I remember in school (5th or 6th Year, can't remember) being told that the Dep of Justice in Irish was an Roinn Dlí agus Cirt. I looked up cirt in the dictionary and couldn't find it. I asked the teacher what cirt meant (she wasn't a great teacher) and she treated my question with contempt and did not answer. (The answer which I eventually realised over the years: cirt is ceart in the tuiseal ginideach, but I never knew when it was used because no teacher ever bothered to mention it; and although ceart means right, as a noun it also means justice.) Maybe she thought I was taking the mickey, even though I explained that the word wasn't in the dictionary.
For me the language is stopping at the harbour regularly, taking more and more people on board.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 17/10/2016 15:29:16
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I think Royaldunnes experience is fairly representative, but again, that's anecdotal evidence. Would you agree in general that there is real problems with the promotion / teaching of Irish?
People who love Irish and want to see it prosper cannot be happy with the outcomes of the current system. pretty much 100% of people exposed to Irish for 13 years of their lives, but yet after leaving school the percentage of people who use the language / are fluent is very small (the numbers can be debated based on which survey you look at)
himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 17/10/2016 15:33:17
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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "I didn't use Google Translate. I don't think gotmilk did because the words are spelled more phonetically, and it makes sense. Similarly, I don't think MesAmis used Google Translate either, because it also makes sense. Google Translate is a bit awful (but we'd figure it out).
I agree, the education system is awful. If you study German, you learn that it has masculine and feminine genders (and neuter) and that is has a genitive case (and other cases). How many Irish school-leavers know that Irish has masculine and feminine and a genitive case? I think the teaching of Irish needs to start from scratch when you hit first year, so that all the grammatical stuff will be re-learned at the same time as the grammar of French/German/etc.
So... use the old thread or create a new one? :D" I was always better at the orals than the writing. I can barley spell in English never mind Irish.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 17/10/2016 17:12:42
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Replying To royaldunne: "I have different degrees, can speak French pretty ok, slight bit of German, all from only doing a few years at higher level many moons ago. The system of teaching Irish is confrontational from get go, and leaving and long bitter after taste, and actually holding the language in distain because of how it was thought.
Nothing can change that easily and I doubt my generation will change its mindset when it comes to it. I also believe it has to be a optional subject like any other language for the leaving cert, otherwise you are forcing people to take a language that has little advantages in career prospects, rather then having it as a option which would make it more accessible and actually could add extra points more people would study it, once it was thought properly. For me the Irish language boat has sailed, but if it is to have any future it needs a radical overhaul." jesus, Royaldunne, for a man with degrees , you are not very proficient at the old writing business.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 17/10/2016 17:46:02
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Replying To himachechy: "I think Royaldunnes experience is fairly representative, but again, that's anecdotal evidence. Would you agree in general that there is real problems with the promotion / teaching of Irish?
People who love Irish and want to see it prosper cannot be happy with the outcomes of the current system. pretty much 100% of people exposed to Irish for 13 years of their lives, but yet after leaving school the percentage of people who use the language / are fluent is very small (the numbers can be debated based on which survey you look at)" For 70% of people my experience would be similar to those. I think the census results will be a stark awakening to many people , . As I said for my younger and future grandchildren there has to be a root and branch change in how Irish is thought, if not it will die away .
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 17/10/2016 17:57:02
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In my time in school I think the problem with the teaching of Irish was that it was being taught through English, mainly by teachers who weren't proficient in Irish. I think a certain amount of time should be set aside each day, in National school, where only Irish is spoken. If children become comfortable speaking it then the finer points will be easier to learn. I was taught Irish for twelve years and I still don't understand most of what is being written on this thread. Whether that is a reflection on myself or on the teaching is a moot point but I would say I'm fairly representative of the majority of posters.
Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 17/10/2016 19:50:37
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I think the latest census results (from the last couple of ones) have shown that people's attitudes towards the language are actually very positive.
The amount of people who have Irish is growing and in much better shape than they were in the 80s/90s. That's distinct from a decline in the rural Gaeltacht areas.
There's also the possibilty that the way Irish is being taught has actually changed, especially in Primary school, since some of us were in school. Things have stayed the exact same since you lads walked out of Rang 6! That's broadly my point. Secondary school has a fair while to go in fairness.
French/German/Spanish etc in terms of language classes are not actually taught all that differently from how Irish is taught as a language. The problem with Irish is that there is the added element of spending a lot of tuition time on literature etc and that makes it more difficult for people to obtain high marks in it. It doesn't really effect how proficient you should be having had 12/13 years of it versus 5/6 years of French/German/Spanish etc.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13718 - 17/10/2016 20:17:09
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Replying To MesAmis: "I think the latest census results (from the last couple of ones) have shown that people's attitudes towards the language are actually very positive.
The amount of people who have Irish is growing and in much better shape than they were in the 80s/90s. That's distinct from a decline in the rural Gaeltacht areas.
There's also the possibilty that the way Irish is being taught has actually changed, especially in Primary school, since some of us were in school. Things have stayed the exact same since you lads walked out of Rang 6! That's broadly my point. Secondary school has a fair while to go in fairness.
French/German/Spanish etc in terms of language classes are not actually taught all that differently from how Irish is taught as a language. The problem with Irish is that there is the added element of spending a lot of tuition time on literature etc and that makes it more difficult for people to obtain high marks in it. It doesn't really effect how proficient you should be having had 12/13 years of it versus 5/6 years of French/German/Spanish etc." I think there is definately a more positive attitude to it among the young now. 10 years ago it was openly ridiculed in my school and just taught cos it had to be. Some people took to it..most didnt. It needs to be mad optional and it ll do better. But im always aware that languages come and go all the time and Ireland has its own language that works really well. Hiberno English.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 17/10/2016 22:51:12
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If you don't have the opportunity to use the language, it dies pretty quickly
manfromdelmonte (UK) - Posts: 541 - 18/10/2016 08:11:36
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I actually loved doing Irish at school. Done it the whole way up to A-Level, done it for a few weeks at uni (in fairness i spent more time in the pub than in uni, it's why i dropped out) but I have to agree the literature was very depressing and would turn you off the language. Cathal O'Sercaighs poems and Seamus Heaneys poems translated into Irish...give me strength. The novels and plays we read were actually quite entertaining but the poetry was something else.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 18/10/2016 09:17:46
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Replying To gotmilk: "I actually loved doing Irish at school. Done it the whole way up to A-Level, done it for a few weeks at uni (in fairness i spent more time in the pub than in uni, it's why i dropped out) but I have to agree the literature was very depressing and would turn you off the language. Cathal O'Sercaighs poems and Seamus Heaneys poems translated into Irish...give me strength. The novels and plays we read were actually quite entertaining but the poetry was something else." The poetry in particular was very dense and inaccessible in my opinion alright.
No need to be making teenagers learn that stuff.
I'd like to see Irish, the subject at school, just as a pure language.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13718 - 18/10/2016 10:35:55
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Replying To MesAmis: "The poetry in particular was very dense and inaccessible in my opinion alright.
No need to be making teenagers learn that stuff.
I'd like to see Irish, the subject at school, just as a pure language." Yeah when the language is taught as just a language you pick up some amount. When i was a pup I use to go to Machaire Rabhartaigh every summer and it was crazy how much you would pick up just being in the area.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 18/10/2016 10:45:03
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Replying To MesAmis: "The poetry in particular was very dense and inaccessible in my opinion alright.
No need to be making teenagers learn that stuff.
I'd like to see Irish, the subject at school, just as a pure language." I'd agree with that. More focus on conversational everyday language rather than the tough going poetry and literature.
himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 18/10/2016 10:46:08
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Replying To MesAmis: "I think the latest census results (from the last couple of ones) have shown that people's attitudes towards the language are actually very positive.
The amount of people who have Irish is growing and in much better shape than they were in the 80s/90s. That's distinct from a decline in the rural Gaeltacht areas.
There's also the possibilty that the way Irish is being taught has actually changed, especially in Primary school, since some of us were in school. Things have stayed the exact same since you lads walked out of Rang 6! That's broadly my point. Secondary school has a fair while to go in fairness.
French/German/Spanish etc in terms of language classes are not actually taught all that differently from how Irish is taught as a language. The problem with Irish is that there is the added element of spending a lot of tuition time on literature etc and that makes it more difficult for people to obtain high marks in it. It doesn't really effect how proficient you should be having had 12/13 years of it versus 5/6 years of French/German/Spanish etc." It is certainly not on the wane in Belfast, there is one irish medium secondary school in Belfast, with numerous bunscoils and also quite a few naiscoils.
Like Gotmilk, I did irish as far as A Level in the 80s and at that time there was only one bunscoil in the whole of Belfast so rather than dwindle it has increased in popularity up here, ive a feeling that also applies to quite a few areas across the north.
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 18/10/2016 10:54:58
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Replying To gotmilk: "I actually loved doing Irish at school. Done it the whole way up to A-Level, done it for a few weeks at uni (in fairness i spent more time in the pub than in uni, it's why i dropped out) but I have to agree the literature was very depressing and would turn you off the language. Cathal O'Sercaighs poems and Seamus Heaneys poems translated into Irish...give me strength. The novels and plays we read were actually quite entertaining but the poetry was something else." The literature was hard going indeed Gotmilk, I was the reverse of you funny enough, I really struggled with orals and was fine with written comprehension. In fact I quit it a month before my oral A'Level mainly due to my feeling that I would have struggled with it.
I struggled with the grammar re structuring my sentences correctly.
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 18/10/2016 11:00:31
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Replying To bumpernut: "The literature was hard going indeed Gotmilk, I was the reverse of you funny enough, I really struggled with orals and was fine with written comprehension. In fact I quit it a month before my oral A'Level mainly due to my feeling that I would have struggled with it.
I struggled with the grammar re structuring my sentences correctly." I was always fine at speaking the language. On the rare occasions I have been around Gaeilgors I have been able to have a conversation, when writing the language I struggle badly with it.
What literature did you have to study? I'd imagine it was a bit different to what we done. We done La fheille Micheal and some book about drug abuse, can not remember the name of it at all. It was quite interesting read however.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 18/10/2016 11:32:33
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Replying To gotmilk: "Yeah when the language is taught as just a language you pick up some amount. When i was a pup I use to go to Machaire Rabhartaigh every summer and it was crazy how much you would pick up just being in the area." This is it. If you're not speaking the language regularly then it's difficult. One thing I would say however is that there this a very big difference between spoken Gaeltacht Irish and 'Book Irish'. My spoken Irish would be a lot better than anything I could write in Irish for example. My good wife is a Gaoth Dobhair woman so that helps an awful lot.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9155 - 18/10/2016 11:53:35
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