National Forum

Qualifier Rd 1.5 - for a level playing field ?

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AI QF lineup -
1st hosts 8th or 9th
2nd hosts 7th or 10th
3rd hosts 6th or 11th
4rh hosts 5th or Div 2 champ.
OR, better have 1st to 4th host weakest to strongest prior rd winners, respectively.
Prov stream retained - Champs added to Sam KO field if unexpectedly not yet NFL qualified.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 05/12/2016 03:21:43    1938333

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Replying To legendzxix:  "European club rugby and soccer have the blueprint. Similarly international rugby and soccer tournaments have the blueprint. Qualifying series for group stage of main event.

The provincial championships and two qualifying rounds leading into 4 groups of 4 offers a similar tried and trusted format that people can easily identify with.

It's inevitably the direction the GAA will take in their own time.

The main All-Ireland contenders are consistently in Division 1. This is reflected in the decent crowds. There's no appetite for changing the football league. At best agreement might be found on using league placing as seeding.

On a vote between two qualifying rounds or league placing, two qualifying rounds will be the clear winner. The McGuinness-Kelly idea tweaked to include two qualifying rounds is a realistic championship possibility."
"There is no appetite for changing the football league".

That statement is just patently wrong.

Prominent figures Jim McGuinness and Sean Kelly wanted league feeding into championship.


https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/it-will-take-a-lot-more-agitation-before-gaa-championship-reform-becomes-reality-400533.html?client=safari

Article written by recent ex-Cork footballer Derek Kavanagh.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-parkinson-comes-up-with-new-format-that-could-rescue-gaelic-football-and-aid-clubs-31290844.html

Recent ex-Laois footballer Colm Parkinson's take.

There have been other similar comments from players and managers that I've read on this site, it's a little trickier finding them with a quick google search.

Players simply want more games. I think real fans also want more games.

I think also with average championship attendances dwindling the GAA has less of a pull on the casual fan.

I think they need to provide more games, there'll be smaller average attendances but much more overall.

League based systems are really efficient at getting teams guaranteed games in a short period of time. That's why they are used for domestic competitions across sports, the world over.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 05/12/2016 03:51:43    1938335

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Over a span of say 30 years, there has been quite a bit of 'chopping and changing' in league formats across both codes. More recently, say last 10 years, the dust doesn't seem to settle on any NHL blueprint, although the NFL 4x8 seems to be sticking.
That said, we could use the graded divisions as a feeder to the AIC.
In the 80s, all 32 contested one NFL trophy (top 4, 2, 1, 1 from the respective divs making the NFL QFs).
We could keep the current 4x8 (although with a Div 3 North 8 and 3 South 8) with say, 18 teams entering 'Race for Sam' (1st Div 3+5+0, 2nd Div 0+4+0, Div 3 North 0+0+4, Div 3 South 0+0+4).
Div 3's '4+4' play 3 rds for 2ndary AIC with the Champs going to the Sam Last 13 (top 3 in Div 1 get bye to AI QFs).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 05/12/2016 18:47:10    1938476

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Replying To omahant:  "Over a span of say 30 years, there has been quite a bit of 'chopping and changing' in league formats across both codes. More recently, say last 10 years, the dust doesn't seem to settle on any NHL blueprint, although the NFL 4x8 seems to be sticking.
That said, we could use the graded divisions as a feeder to the AIC.
In the 80s, all 32 contested one NFL trophy (top 4, 2, 1, 1 from the respective divs making the NFL QFs).
We could keep the current 4x8 (although with a Div 3 North 8 and 3 South 8) with say, 18 teams entering 'Race for Sam' (1st Div 3+5+0, 2nd Div 0+4+0, Div 3 North 0+0+4, Div 3 South 0+0+4).
Div 3's '4+4' play 3 rds for 2ndary AIC with the Champs going to the Sam Last 13 (top 3 in Div 1 get bye to AI QFs)."
Yeah, some of the league based plans I think break too hard with tradition.

The provincials have to be played in the summer and be part of the AI series.

I think with my 2-tier league division 1 is the best league division possible. The most number of teams involved whilst playing a season that can fit in March to August.

The 2 sections to division 2 feeding into a 12 team higher division works better than an 8 team higher division. You can only relegate 2 teams from an 8 team division. You could get a promotion bottle neck where it's v hard to get out of division 3. In my system as many as 4 teams can go up. I really think a flat system is so important for a game like GAA where county football is the representative level.

Division 2 needs to be finished before provincials start so that teams out of the promotion running have something to play for still. Players aren't professional, they won't want to hang around for dead rubber games.

It's ok to have the last 2 rounds in division 1 played alongside provincials as there's relegation to fight against.

Division 1 or 2 teams who've reached the playoffs but got knocked out early in their provincial championship aren't sitting around idle until the quarterfinals.

The AI knockout stage starting at the quarterfinals is a natural place to start.

League and championship are both important for seeding the playoff rounds means even a team already qualified still needs to take both competitions seriously.

Only the top 3 in the league are guaranteed a quarterfinal spot. 4-7 have decreasing chances of qualifying, so practically every position counts.

The division 2 champion is a worthy quarterfinalists. They've likely picked up 14+ points from their 9 league games and have won 2 a semifinal and Croke Park final.

Most teams could have realistic aspirations of getting top 4 in their section and with it be 3 wins from a place in division 1.

The weakest teams get games against better quality opposition without being subjected to a mismatch versus the very best teams.

Division 2 teams that likely have less funding have a less costly league program with shorter distances to games. Less of a time commitment for players to play these games (good for their fans also).

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 06/12/2016 19:44:57    1938732

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Champions League drove home my distaste for tournament round robin today - FC Copenhagen 2-0 win to secure 2nd place in their group was all in vein - given already qualified and unbeaten Leicester's 5-0 hammering by opponents who had nothing but pride to play for - this type of mischief is far more damaging for me - than meaningless, but not destructive, dead rubbers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 08/12/2016 04:29:51    1938970

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...that should read....hammering by an opponent, Porto who got the win they needed, under soft circumstances.....an advantage only gained by being the last to play the group winner....

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 08/12/2016 04:42:47    1938971

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Replying To omahant:  "Champions League drove home my distaste for tournament round robin today - FC Copenhagen 2-0 win to secure 2nd place in their group was all in vein - given already qualified and unbeaten Leicester's 5-0 hammering by opponents who had nothing but pride to play for - this type of mischief is far more damaging for me - than meaningless, but not destructive, dead rubbers."
It's way less of a factor in a 10 or 12 team league

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 09/12/2016 02:52:02    1939168

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That's why I was careful to say 'tournament' round robins - I like the idea of season long league leading to post season playoffs - as you have put forth.
Back on the subject topic - I find these posts here beneficial in that it allows us to blend together various ideas toward an 'optimum' solution -
So in lieu of Rd 1.5 - each Prov SF loser is drawn with a 1st Qual Rd 'pairing' (in lieu of only one of the teams) to create 8 groups of 3 - top 2 from each joins 4 Prov Final losers to my 'Rd of 20'. Now though, Rd 2 could be seeded - 6 of 8 group winners join 4 Prov Finalists as Rd 2 hosts. I like the Champs Rd games played concurrently with Rd 2. For me, there could be mouthwatering pairings here - but I realise it's all fantasy.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 09/12/2016 14:39:09    1939251

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Replying To omahant:  "That's why I was careful to say 'tournament' round robins - I like the idea of season long league leading to post season playoffs - as you have put forth.
Back on the subject topic - I find these posts here beneficial in that it allows us to blend together various ideas toward an 'optimum' solution -
So in lieu of Rd 1.5 - each Prov SF loser is drawn with a 1st Qual Rd 'pairing' (in lieu of only one of the teams) to create 8 groups of 3 - top 2 from each joins 4 Prov Final losers to my 'Rd of 20'. Now though, Rd 2 could be seeded - 6 of 8 group winners join 4 Prov Finalists as Rd 2 hosts. I like the Champs Rd games played concurrently with Rd 2. For me, there could be mouthwatering pairings here - but I realise it's all fantasy."
I do prefer this idea. You also don't need 2-legged provincial semifinals to get every team to 3 games.

I agree the Champions round would be excellent.

You would also have a system where a losing provincial champion is drawn in the opposite half to the team that beat them in the semifinals.

What is better about this system than the proposed GAA system is that extra games are being played by the weaker counties rather than the stronger counties.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 10/12/2016 03:10:31    1939343

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A system that could work would be

8 A Seeds 4 Provincial champions plus 4 best other from League (to include division 2 champion)
8 B Seeds Any provincial finalists not A seeds, next best teams from league to make up 8 teams (to include division 3 champion)
8 C seeds based on league position to include division 4 champion
8 D seeds based on league position

5 league rounds played before provincial championships start, penultimate round played June bank holiday, 7th round between provincial semifinals and finals

All Ireland series

Round 1 Played over weekends used for provincial finals C seeds v D seeds (division 4 winner given option of a Croke Park game on Leinster final day)

Round 2 B seeds v round 2 winners (Division 3 winner given option of a Croke Park fixture, possibly as a double header with a Leinster team with home advantage)

Round 3 A seeds v round 3 winners (division 1 and 2 winners given option of a Croke Park fixture, Provincial champions get home advantage)

The A seeds are seeded further so that if A seeds progress the following matchups happen at the quarterfinals

1) Provincial champion 1 (by league position) v Non Provincial champion 4
2) Provincial champion 2 v Non Provincial champion 3
3) Provincial champion 3 v Non Provincial champion 2
4) Provincial champion 4 v Non Provincial champion 1

Semifinals

Winner 1) v Winner 3)
Winner 2) v Winner 4)

League and Provincial series both matter towards AI seeding elevating the leagues status.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 10/12/2016 03:35:57    1939344

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The GAA's suggested group stage is the way forward. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. When it's implemented, there will be clamour to include more counties and for hurling to adopt something similar.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 10/12/2016 18:48:57    1939413

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The chance of drawn games is less likely in GAA compared to soccer. Accordingly, 4-team round robins in the former have less possible outcomes with greater chance of 'dead rubbers'. Most groups would produce no draws, with groups decided on games won - 3,2,1,0 OR 2,2,2,0 OR 3,1,1,1. We would have to hope for the latter two outcomes and have a tie breaker to decide who loses out.
By comparison, 3-team groups can be arranged to ALWAYS avoid 'dead rubbers' -
If you want one to qualify, the winner of the 1st game should avoid the 2nd game to avoid killing the group in the 2nd game.
If you want two through, best to have 1st game winner try to win the 2nd as well and set up 'winner-takes-all' 3rd game.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 11/12/2016 15:34:41    1939538

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA's suggested group stage is the way forward. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. When it's implemented, there will be clamour to include more counties and for hurling to adopt something similar."
I would like to see 2 groups of 5 in the AI SHC, with the groups 'formed' (NOT drawn) from the unfolding of Prov pairings, as follows -
Play existing structure to Muns Last 5 and Lein Last 5.
Then, put Muns QF loser in Group A, winner in B and QF winner's opponent in A.
Split the other Muns SF between the groups, so Muns Finalists are in opposite groups.
Allocate Lein 5 in a similar fashion - with Lein QF loser in B to ensure two 5-team groups.
All teams in each group complete a 5-match schedule against all teams in the other group.
The AI SFs are: 1st in A v (winner of 2nd v 3rd in A); and 1st in B v (winner 2nd or 3rd in B).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 11/12/2016 22:32:35    1939613

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....do something similar for the AI SFC....
Put most Northern Lein Prelim Rd loser (1 of 3) with Ulster (5 in Group A, 5 in B).
Merge Uls and Conn (8 in A, 8 in B); and merge Lein and Muns (8 in A, 8 in B).
After all complete 8 matches - top 5 in each group form one quarter of the AI Series.
UC 1st in A v (winner of 4th v 5th in A); and 2nd v 3rd in A etc.
AI SFs are: UC A winner v LM A winner; and UC B winner v LM B winner.
Given that early rd Prov pairings begin group allocation, the 4 Prov Champs could be on either the A or B sides of the draw and may split unevenly - so be it, to add more spice.

As an alternative to the above, the AI Series consists of 4x4 conventional groups (UC A etc) with top 2 in each to AI QFs.
Top half of AI QF Draw -
1st in UC A v 2nd in LM A
1st in LM B v 2nd in UC B

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 11/12/2016 23:01:30    1939617

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.....Or, for greater 'inter conference' matchups - in the A side of the KO draw -
1st in UC A v winner of 4th LM A v 5th UC A
2nd in LM A v 3rd in UC A
1st in LM A v winner of 4th UC A v 5th LM A
2nd in UC A v 3rd in LM A

.....Or 1 of the 4x4 groups in the AI Series round robin could be -
1st UC A
2nd LM A
3rd LM A
4th UC A
Finally, UC could alternate with UM for variety every 2nd year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 12/12/2016 03:15:47    1939626

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Replying To omahant:  ".....Or, for greater 'inter conference' matchups - in the A side of the KO draw -
1st in UC A v winner of 4th LM A v 5th UC A
2nd in LM A v 3rd in UC A
1st in LM A v winner of 4th UC A v 5th LM A
2nd in UC A v 3rd in LM A

.....Or 1 of the 4x4 groups in the AI Series round robin could be -
1st UC A
2nd LM A
3rd LM A
4th UC A
Finally, UC could alternate with UM for variety every 2nd year."
The most important thing is that everybody enjoys winter and uses it to reflect on 2017.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 12/12/2016 13:17:35    1939688

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Replying To Donegalman:  "The most important thing is that everybody enjoys winter and uses it to reflect on 2017."
The national league shouldn't start until March. That'd be a big improvement to the season. Give teams a proper winter break

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 12/12/2016 20:00:07    1939748

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The national league shouldn't start until March. That'd be a big improvement to the season. Give teams a proper winter break"
Winter well so ;)

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 12/12/2016 23:54:56    1939799

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The Indy yesterday stated that Laois has a proposed 4x4 group stage for the 1st Rd Qualifiers - giving these teams a min of 4 games.
If this and GAA HQ's Last 8's 2x4 get approved - we are left with the anomaly that the 8 Prov SF losers are curiously the only teams without group play - and Tipp for example, as a 'bye team', could be out after 2 games.
I love the way the powers that be think these things thru - they should come to us instead.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 16/12/2016 21:04:34    1940611

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If we link each Prov SF loser to a current pairing in the 1sr Rd Qualifiers to form 8 groups of 3, it would be best that the SF losers play the 1st match winner next - otherwise, they could beat the 1st match loser and make the 3rd group match a dead rubber.
Also, I'd prefer an Open Draw Rd of 20 (FA Cup style) but perhaps it's best to reward group winners and Prov Final losers as seeds, although not necessary hosts.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 26/12/2016 17:37:20    1942090

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