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I suppose 16 is a good number - and I can see it encouraging the lower 16 to have a similar 4x4 set up - or why don't the stronger half allow themselves to be a little 'handicapped' and play in groups a little stronger, and the weaker half get an easier path to the Sam KO in the same year. Say, put 3 teams from NFL Divs 1 & 2 into each of 5 groups (one remaining plus 4 Div 3 teams complete those groups); draw 3x4 from remaining 12 teams. Top two to Rd of 16. My 'Treble Chance' quasi-KO goes from 32 (2x16) to 24 to 14 to 8, which I also think works well as all get a 3-match minimum (incl Prov stream). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 10/11/2016 17:30:07 1933398 Link 0 |
I think the Limerick hurling championship had some format that had strong teams and lesser teams in separate groups. They reverted back to conventional groups. Essentially if 4 groups of 4 was in place for a number of years, those missing might be encouraged to enter a second championship of similar format, knockout or double elimination format like that used in the Christy Ring Cup. Suggested qualification for the top 16 is: 8 provincial finalists. 8 qualifier round 2 winners. If a second championship was agreed, suggested qualification for the top 16 is similar to the McGuinness-Kelly idea: 8 provincial finalists. All-Ireland winner from previous year. Second championship winner from previous year. 6 to 8 places after two qualifying rounds held on back to back weekends, same weekends as provincial finals. 6 places available (10 already qualified): 22 teams to 6 after two qualifying rounds. 7 places available (9 already qualified): 23 teams to 7 after two qualifying rounds. 8 places available (8 already qualified): 24 teams to 8 after two qualifying rounds. * 8, 9 or 10 already qualified for the group stage depends on All-Ireland winner and second championship winner making the provincial finals or not. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 10/11/2016 18:36:14 1933417 Link 0 |
I actually really like the 4 by 4 groups idea, so the next one is just me throwing another one out there. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 11/11/2016 20:34:38 1933686 Link 0 |
Despite the imbalance of numbers in provinces, all provincial champions should be treated the same resulting in either 1 or 2 in each group. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 11/11/2016 22:26:11 1933704 Link 0 |
As I say I really like your proposal. Based on this year you'd have had the following: Provincial champions Dublin, Tyrone, Kerry, Galway Provincial runners up Westmeath, Donegal, Roscommon, Tipperary Qualifiers Mayo, Cork, Clare, Derry, Sligo, Cavan, Longford, Kildare That could be a very interesting tournament, I think by making the AI series larger, that the provincial imbalance is less of a factor. I would vote for this system over the GAA's proposal. I was just throwing out another idea, one that gives a legitimate reward to teams that are more attacking and win well. In my suggestion there'd be a group with 2 provincial champions, that'd be assigned by a draw. In their group they'd be guaranteed to avoid provincial runners up, it would keep the groups evenly matched. So if group A has 2 provincial champions, groups B and C would have 1 provincial champion plus 2 winners from qualifier matches involving provincial runners up. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 12/11/2016 07:48:31 1933724 Link 0 |
I see the merits of your suggestion as well. 4 groups of 4 is very straightforward though. People with a passing interest will easily identify with 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers making that stage of competition. Some people find the A and B sides of the qualifiers confusing. They can't follow the stage the championship is at. That will affect crowds. The hurling had a phase 1 of non-provincial semi-finalists, a phase 2 of losing provincial semi-finalists and a phase 3 of phase 1 and phase 2 winners. People found that confusing and convoluted as well. The hurling is now straightforward round 1 and round 2 into quarter-finals. I've entertained convoluted formats myself but it's clear the simpler the better e.g. seed qualifier draws based on league placing. Very little explaining needed. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 12/11/2016 10:41:57 1933736 Link 0 |
Yeah you're right. Have you submitted it, I think it'd have a chance. It needs barely any change to the GAA's proposed calendar. Final qualifier round gets played alongside provincial finals. 6 rounds of fixtures are needed after provincial series, same as GAA's proposal. Hurling could adopt something similar. Not sure what gets done about Galway though. Do they get a bye to the last 8 if they leave Leinster. Maybe play 1 qualifier round, with no second chance. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 12/11/2016 12:07:23 1933748 Link 0 |
So tell me please - what don't you like about 'Treble Chance' ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 12/11/2016 16:12:41 1933777 Link 0 |
A lopsided GPA might work better - omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 12/11/2016 16:34:08 1933780 Link 0 |
My advice for everyone is to submit a proposal through their club or county or contact the GPA. I submitted the idea to the GPA a few months ago. The GAA are suggesting 2 groups of 4. The GPA had suggested 8 groups of 4. My advice is a compromise of 4 groups of 4. We'll see in the next while what the GPA will come up with.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 12/11/2016 19:09:46 1933821 Link 0 |
The format is easily adaptable to hurling as well. Keep the main hurling championship structure as it is. Simply apply the following for 2 groups of 4 in the top 8: 4 provincial finalists. 4 qualifiers. The suggested format again for football is: 8 provincial finalists. 8 qualifiers. The groups in football and hurling can have similar setup: Provincial finalists playing a game against each other in Croke Park e.g. Munster champions v Leinster runners-up. Provincial winners having 2 home games against the qualifier counties in their group. All other teams in the group having 1 home game each. Point to note: - Provincial finalists are guaranteed a game in Croke Park. - Provincial winners are awarded 2 home games while their group opponents have 1 home game. - The football quarter-finals onwards and hurling semi-finals onwards can be kept in Croke Park. - It'll be up counties missing out to reevaluate the merits of a second championship. - There is flexibility to reward second championship winners a place in the group stage of the following year. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 12/11/2016 19:31:41 1933835 Link 0 |
Hey man. I appreciate what you're trying to do. Realistically a back door of the back door is not going to be popular. I also really don't think a 2 legged Munster semifinal is ever going to happen. In your system it is an advantage to get knocked out in a provincial quarter final as you get 2 chances to progress through the qualifiers. It gives 3 guaranteed matches but other than that I think there are better systems for evening out the provinces. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 12/11/2016 23:49:06 1933883 Link 0 |
If we are left with the current qualifying system, with the removal of A and B sides, and the GAA's 2 groups of 4, the minimum I would suggest is seeding qualifier round 1 and 2 draws based on the number of current championship games won and secondly league placing. Teams entering Qualifier Round 1 will have won 1 game or 0 games. Seed teams for this draw based first on those who won a game and then based on league placing. It will be an advantage for preliminary round winners in Ulster and Leinster who lose their quarter-final. Teams entering Qualifier Round 2 will have won 2 games, 1 game or 0 games. Again seed teams for this draw firstly on number of games won and then based on league placing. It will be an advantage for teams who started in preliminary rounds and won 2 games. It's a subtle way to try and give fairness within the accepted imbalanced provincial structure. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 13/11/2016 11:00:36 1933899 Link 0 |
So, in most prior years - one of the minnow 4 can get to a Muns Final when the Big 2 are on the same side of the draw. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 13/11/2016 16:11:41 1933943 Link 0 |
There are 4 preliminary round matches. That leaves room for at least 4 strong teams based on league placing to be seeded as well. From your example Carlow would avoid the likes of Tyrone or Derry.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 13/11/2016 17:50:04 1933960 Link 0 |
GaryMc82 - Thanks for the comments. It takes some Maths aptitude to follow some of my thinking - other people have other skills that I don't have. GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 14/11/2016 09:15:55 1934058 Link 0 |
I think the Ulster Championship needs to be seeded for future, based on National League places, as that plays a strong part in seeing really strong sides exit the Provincial and enter the early qualifier rounds. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 14/11/2016 13:51:43 1934147 Link 0 |
Muns hurling has the same prob with Tipp needing to engage 3 rds, due to 'luck' of the draw omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 14/11/2016 14:26:43 1934158 Link 0 |
Would you consider the AI SFC fair, if it started with a symmetric 32 teams, moved to 24, before moving on to the AI Last 8 ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/11/2016 04:45:35 1934280 Link 0 |
Not sure if there is an 'advantage' to getting two chances in Rds 1 or 1.5 before the AI Last 24, as Prov QF winners also retain twp chances via Prov SFs or Rd 1.5. Essentially, from the twin 16s, 'losers of the losers' are the 1st 8 to be eliminated.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 16/11/2016 04:17:42 1934559 Link 0 |