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Semi Finalists and from what provinces?

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the draw and the province have a huge impact. If you had every team playing each other home and away (I don't want to see this happen by the way) I doubt the 4 semi finalists at the minute would be the top four in this league with all having to play equal amounts of times and against teams they usually never have to face.

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 08/08/2016 18:03:23    1898241

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I had asked earlier about Munster quarter finals between Kerry & Cork.
In the absence of any answers I resorted to google and here's the outcome:

By my understanding the two counties have met 107 times in the Munster Championship (includes 13 replays).
70% of these ties have been finals.
7% have been quarter finals.

I can't say how many of these Munster final pairings were the result of open draws (I presume some must have been) but overall pattern speaks to a heavy hand of structuring the championship in a particular way.

No one (in Ulster or anywhere else) is doubting the pedigree of either Counties...but seriously, of all the teams in Ireland, do Kerry really need their path to a provincial final being manicured in such fashion ?

We'll never know what a different approach in the past would have resulted in, but Is this not skewing things to an unnecessary degree in favour of the Kingdom ?...perhaps the best example of a team that didn't need favours ?

(Oh, and fair play to yous both on the 7 encounters in the All Ireland series).

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 09/08/2016 21:57:58    1899144

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Replying To Knoxboya:  "I had asked earlier about Munster quarter finals between Kerry & Cork.
In the absence of any answers I resorted to google and here's the outcome:

By my understanding the two counties have met 107 times in the Munster Championship (includes 13 replays).
70% of these ties have been finals.
7% have been quarter finals.

I can't say how many of these Munster final pairings were the result of open draws (I presume some must have been) but overall pattern speaks to a heavy hand of structuring the championship in a particular way.

No one (in Ulster or anywhere else) is doubting the pedigree of either Counties...but seriously, of all the teams in Ireland, do Kerry really need their path to a provincial final being manicured in such fashion ?

We'll never know what a different approach in the past would have resulted in, but Is this not skewing things to an unnecessary degree in favour of the Kingdom ?...perhaps the best example of a team that didn't need favours ?

(Oh, and fair play to yous both on the 7 encounters in the All Ireland series)."
We don't have a great team at the moment. We neglected our youth in the 00's and are taking responsibility for that. We've seen Ulster teams have a poor championship after a balanced Ulster draw. We've seen Mayo recover from an early setback to negotiate the qualifiers. Tyrone have done the same in recent championships.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 10/08/2016 08:33:15    1899212

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"We don't have a great team at the moment".

So why seed Kerry ?

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 10/08/2016 08:58:36    1899215

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Replying To Knoxboya:  ""We don't have a great team at the moment".

So why seed Kerry ?"
Our provincial finalists are seeded in the following year but can draw each other in the semi-finals.

Leinster semi-finalists are seeded in the following year to avoid each other in their quarter-finals.

Without the seeding Waterford could be drawn in the semi-final and avoid Qualifier Round 1 by default. It wouldn't be a fair reflection of their level. Teams entering Qualifier Round 1 or 2 from Munster is a fair reflection of their level and performance.

Ulster prefer an open draw which is ye're business. It does however at times lead to ye're top teams meeting in a preliminary or quarter-final. That leads to a strong county in Qualifier Round 1 when it's not a fair reflection of their level but that's ye're decision.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 10/08/2016 09:27:48    1899228

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It's a system the throws buoyancy aids to strong swimmers.

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 10/08/2016 09:43:07    1899238

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Replying To Knoxboya:  "It's a system the throws buoyancy aids to strong swimmers."
Fair enough. Some agree some don't. It rewards progress. Tipperary have earned the seeding for next year. Tipperary, Clare, Limerick and Waterford were the counties that pushed for this seeding. We might not see Kerry and Cork play each other in the Munster championship for years. Tipperary and Clare are quietly confident about that depending on the luck of the draw.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 10/08/2016 10:04:25    1899249

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Fair enough. Some agree some don't. It rewards progress. Tipperary have earned the seeding for next year. Tipperary, Clare, Limerick and Waterford were the counties that pushed for this seeding. We might not see Kerry and Cork play each other in the Munster championship for years. Tipperary and Clare are quietly confident about that depending on the luck of the draw."
Seeding teams benefits the weaker counties. I am convinced part of the reason Kerry are so successful is because of how their club championship is arranged - the arrangement of the Munster championship now appears to be helping raise the standard at intercounty level as well.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 10/08/2016 13:41:29    1899386

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Replying To Soma:  "Seeding teams benefits the weaker counties. I am convinced part of the reason Kerry are so successful is because of how their club championship is arranged - the arrangement of the Munster championship now appears to be helping raise the standard at intercounty level as well."
When Tipperary and Clare took on Cork and Kerry in the semi-finals this year, it was an advantage for them to have a game under their belts. I'm sure it's the same in similar situations in other provinces. Tipperary made it count.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 10/08/2016 13:49:24    1899393

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Legend has stated: "Without the seeding Waterford could be drawn in the semi-final and avoid Qualifier Round 1 by default. It wouldn't be a fair reflection of their level. Teams entering Qualifier Round 1 or 2 from Munster is a fair reflection of their level and performance."


Horror of horror! Waterford might get ideas above their station. Jaysus that would never do.

Allow me to draw an analogy - international soccer in South America.

Seeding their World Cup qualification - as was the case - resulted in two groups of five teams that kept apart Brazil & Argentina. In 1998 this changed to one group for all ten countries, and this has been the case ever since. Home and away matches, top 4 qualify automatically.

Now this is far from a perfect fit with provincial football championships in Munster or elsewhere. It's group/round robin rather than knockout football. It's also South America, and I'm well aware of the "let's play our home game v Brazil at the highest possible altitude" controversy.

But the removal of seeding has - it is argued - led to both the improvement of the teams that had not been seeded under the old system, and a more exciting series of matches. Moreover, there is no appetite for a return to the old ways. It's worked for Chile, Columbia and others; shouldn't the Waterfords of this world have a similar opportunity ?

Seeding in GAA championships is a provincial issue. As recently as last week we saw proposals to alter future AI series Football Championships. These are likely to herald further emphasis on the national rather than the provincial.

Seeding...days...numbered.

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 10/08/2016 20:04:26    1899610

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Cork are in the same boat as Waterford next year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 10/08/2016 21:10:37    1899634

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...so we can rest assured that Waterford's disadvantage will continue as will the assistance given to Kerry.

Is this feudal outlook of "haves" and "have-nots" the reason for the name "the Kingdom" ?

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 10/08/2016 21:51:04    1899654

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...so we can rest assured that Waterford's disadvantage will continue as will the assistance given to Kerry.

Knoxboya (Monaghan)

Waterford can look to Longford for inspiration. Longford were unseeded in Leinster. They lost their preliminary round against Offaly. They dusted themselves down to beat Down away in Qualifier Round 1. They went on to beat the '15 Ulster champions Monaghan in Clones in Qualifier Round 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 10/08/2016 22:48:13    1899683

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Replying To noelnyc:  "With all the talk of which Province is strongest over the last decade and a half, a province with possibly the easiest path to Croker now has two semi finalists in the Senior Football Championship. It is time to face facts, provincial strength is a myth. The best teams annually make their way to Croke Park in August, with few exceptions. The teams that play during this time of the summer are arguably the best at the moment, and that obviously can change from year to year. Maybe all the hype about one province being stronger than another holds power in a friendly conversation but in reality maybe the fact that there are so many average teams in the provincial championships are the reason some provinces are harder to get out of than others ? It does not always mean that a certain province is the best footballing province because the games are more competitive, mediocrity breeds a false sense of security. The Dubs are deserved reigning All Ireland champions and realistically the only threat from Leinster. See Mayo/Galway in Connacht, Kerry. Tipp and Cork in Munster and Ulster changes quite often. Change is needed and it can't come quick enough. The best four teams remain in this years Championship at the moment though."
Big long post actually got bored after 2 sentences so hope I'm not losing the plot but title of post said it all. If any Kerry team were located and played in Ulster for past 132 years you wouldn't have your haul - nowhere near it -you don't know how difficult it is to win there. Don't even compare it to your annual cake walk every year - you really are so ignorant it's beyond belief.

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts: 1092 - 11/08/2016 00:29:41    1899704

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Ignorance is a blessing, so I will sleep well knowing Kerry have won 37 titles.

noelnyc (Kerry) - Posts: 82 - 11/08/2016 03:38:26    1899713

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Replying To IrishGael3:  "Big long post actually got bored after 2 sentences so hope I'm not losing the plot but title of post said it all. If any Kerry team were located and played in Ulster for past 132 years you wouldn't have your haul - nowhere near it -you don't know how difficult it is to win there. Don't even compare it to your annual cake walk every year - you really are so ignorant it's beyond belief."
Are you talking about the Ulster Championship upto '86? You might want to research Ulster championship more in detail. Even '87 to '90 was dominated by Cork and Meath. Ulster's good run in the early 90's coincided with bar '91, Kerry not even getting out of Munster. '96 to '01 was dominated by Meath, Kerry and Galway. Kerry beat the Ulster champions on route to the '97 and '00 All-Irelands.

'04 to '09 was a mixture of being provincial champions or having to negotiate the qualifier route, similar to Tyrone.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 11/08/2016 07:46:12    1899721

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"We don't have a great team at the moment".


You've been in the last 2 All-Ireland finals, winning one and losing the other by 1 score.

I think I'd take that!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5017 - 11/08/2016 08:55:29    1899734

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Replying To cavanman47:  ""We don't have a great team at the moment".


You've been in the last 2 All-Ireland finals, winning one and losing the other by 1 score.

I think I'd take that!"
I'm sure. Our '14 and '15 teams wouldn't make the finals of '96 to '09. It's just a reflection of a poor decade so far.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 11/08/2016 10:04:33    1899757

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I agree with Legend, after a great run from 2000 to 2009, this present team is representing Kerry very well but a notch below that panel of post 2000. Humbly adding that most counties would gladly swap places. I must add that Kerry do not match up well with the Dubs at the moment.

noelnyc (Kerry) - Posts: 82 - 11/08/2016 10:49:08    1899770

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Replying To Knoxboya:  "...so we can rest assured that Waterford's disadvantage will continue as will the assistance given to Kerry.

Is this feudal outlook of "haves" and "have-nots" the reason for the name "the Kingdom" ?"
The opposite is actually true. The seeding has worked in Tipps favour. They pushed Cork close a few years ago because we had a game under our belt. If Cork had that game this year and met us in the semi it's much less likely that we would have won. There was uproar in Tipp at the time but I thought it was a great call and I assume the people of Clare think the same. Tipp went years without winning a Munster cship game but the new system allowed us to play a winnable game in the quarter final.
On the flip side I don't buy into the fact that Kerry are getting an easy ride. Look at Connacht and Leinster and you see Mayo and Dublin cleaning up nearly every year. The Ulster cship in general is quite competitive but over the last number of year, Donegal (and maybe Monaghan) are the only ones that could stake a claim to competing with them. Leinster and Connacht have been far less competitive.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 11/08/2016 13:04:03    1899850

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