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The old system gave the smaller sides a chance to inflict
a one off shock ambush remember the saying "waiting
in the long grass" for a team. That was all gone in the
qualifiers.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 14:47:17
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Replying To jimbodub: "Ha..
If there's one thing I'm remotely decent at on this site
It's start a good big of rowing/debate" Good job!!! I always end up in the centre of the row
even when I don't mean to be !!!!!
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 14:49:58
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Replying To MourneArmy: " Replying To GaryMc82: "Our best players won't commit to
playing for us at the minute so its
an uphill struggle for us to compete
now.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts:1326 - 27/07/2016 21:43:42
There seems to be conflicting reports from Down, with former players saying they aren't being called up, while management says some won't answer the call or are injured." There are a combination of reasons for why players are turning their backs on Down: 1) The treatment of Jim McCorry last season by the county board. 2) A lack of commitment, due to personal reasons, family and work. 3) Poor attitude. A few players left during the league to lack of game time and poor results. 4) Injuries. Most notably the two Johnson brothers, Jerome and Ryan. Both classy footballers. 5) A lack of vision for the future, as a result of a stagnant county board/ executive. A lack of investment . Poor underage structures. However, players we could see back in the Down colours next season include Caolan Mooney, Niall Madine, Conor Laverty, Marty Clarke, Arthur McConville, Peter Fitzpatrick, Luke Horward, Jerome and Ryan Johnson. Down have been rightly ridiculed for results this season. 11 defeats in a row as mentioned above. But I couldn't disagree more with the Tyrone poster saying that Down would be no better if these players were available. Down will always produce quality footballers with or without investment, proper underage structures, a strategic vision for the future. But if we did implement structures similar to Tyrone, Cavan, Roscommon, Tipperary, we would be in a position to compete at the the top level more regularly. But mark my words, Down will be back. And for those kicking us while we're down, just remember how sh*t Down were in the 70's and 80's, before we exploded into life in the early 90's. Every team has their day in the sun."
That being said you refer to having nothing in the 70's and 80's before exploding in the 90's, there's much more to it these days than waiting for the players to come through, 16-18 year olds who've never seen a gym will never get on an county team in this age of football regardless of their blinding pace and skill.
Down really have to start taking a modern approach to the modern game and for all that's holy in the world, you have to get the players showing a bit of intensity and passion. To me Down football is in the corner with it's ears plugged ignoring what's happening around it.
You know what team I want to be the best Tyrone team, it's this team we have right now. I don't want to reminisce about the good old days anymore (as fantastic as they were). I want new days like Ulster final day this year and I believe wholeheartedly they're in the post.
End of the day the men of 2000s bar the Cavanagh's and the McMahon's will never win another trophy for Tyrone they're home and hosed and no level of support will change that. Maybe if Down football adapted to the modern game they could develop an innovation of skill to change the whole thing again but they'll never know if they can't match the physicality of most teams
Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts: 237 - 28/07/2016 14:50:07
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Replying To jimbodub: "Ha..
If there's one thing I'm remotely decent at on this site
It's start a good big of rowing/debate" Good job!!! I always end up in the centre of the row
even when I don't mean to be !!!!!
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 14:50:11
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Replying To jimbodub: "Ha..
If there's one thing I'm remotely decent at on this site
It's start a good big of rowing/debate" It's certainly not my phone typing
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 28/07/2016 14:59:13
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "The old system gave the smaller sides a chance to inflict
a one off shock ambush remember the saying "waiting
in the long grass" for a team. That was all gone in the
qualifiers." yeah its not like longford havent shocked anybody over the years for instance
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/07/2016 15:52:14
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "No im not bitter about anything. Your starting to try
to stir things up. Answer this question who has the
best record throughout history? ??? Down or Tyrone???
5 All Irelands to 3. The 2000s are history now too." but what has history got to do with it?..why cant you be objective?..we are talking about a specific era?..you dont seem prepared to have a reasonable and honest debate
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/07/2016 15:53:20
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Seansy48,
We're as far away from the top as we have ever been. My fear is that it is only going to get worse before it gets better. That said, Down football is not in as bad a place as our results this season would suggest. Everyone knows that the Down team that played throughout the league and against Monaghan and Longford in the championship is not the strongest team in the county. If it was, then I'd be extremely worried. The problems with Down football are multi faceted. But they do mainly stem from our stagnant county board. Those in a position of authority within the county are stale, unimaginative and uninspiring. Our county board is in debt and therefore investment in our underage structures is limited. We are relying too heavily on the goodwill of club volunteers, and limited sponsorship money to provide financial resources. We lack the funding which exists in counties like Tyrone, Donegal and Kerry to set up purposeful modern underage structures; something akin to Tyrone's centre of excellence would go a long way to solving the problem. But at this moment it is not a realistic goal. If we were a business we would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. From within the county the silence is deafening and nothing will change in the near future.
MourneArmy (Down) - Posts: 1787 - 28/07/2016 15:54:02
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Replying To alano12: "but what has history got to do with it?..why cant you be objective?..we are talking about a specific era?..you dont seem prepared to have a reasonable and honest debate" Do you not see that the qualifiers give teams a second
chance that teams never had before???
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 16:01:06
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Replying To MourneArmy: "Seansy48,
We're as far away from the top as we have ever been. My fear is that it is only going to get worse before it gets better. That said, Down football is not in as bad a place as our results this season would suggest. Everyone knows that the Down team that played throughout the league and against Monaghan and Longford in the championship is not the strongest team in the county. If it was, then I'd be extremely worried. The problems with Down football are multi faceted. But they do mainly stem from our stagnant county board. Those in a position of authority within the county are stale, unimaginative and uninspiring. Our county board is in debt and therefore investment in our underage structures is limited. We are relying too heavily on the goodwill of club volunteers, and limited sponsorship money to provide financial resources. We lack the funding which exists in counties like Tyrone, Donegal and Kerry to set up purposeful modern underage structures; something akin to Tyrone's centre of excellence would go a long way to solving the problem. But at this moment it is not a realistic goal. If we were a business we would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. From within the county the silence is deafening and nothing will change in the near future." Mourne don't fret like, I remember a wee county who lives next door saying the same thing for a while before a man named Jim changed everything for them by simply making them believe they were a good enough team to win whatever they wanted but they really really had to want it
Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts: 237 - 28/07/2016 16:01:49
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Replying To jimbodub: "It's certainly not my phone typing" Yeah but if they shock teams in Leinster they get another
chance whereas years ago they would have been out.
Their qualifier record is outstanding and fair play to them.
They knocked us out AET this year.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 16:03:40
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "I said that I didn't like Tyrone. I never said I was jealous
of your success. We have had two great teams in our
history so Im not to worry about a county who has
achieved less than ourselves throughout history. That
wouldn't make any sense. Besides there were many
in Tyrone that hated Down's success in the past and
they won't admit it. The GAA didn't begin in 2003!!!!
I have no problem with people who say Down were better
or Tyrone were better. Down won 2 undefeated, Tyrone
won 3 1 undefeated under a more advantageous system.
You slag off the current Down side and were not in a
good moment but we had been there and won 5 All
Irelands before Tyrone even came to the party. We have
the better history and that is indisputable.
Anyway we are going around in circles so everyone is
entitled to their own opinion who was the better team." I don't knock downs history. They were the originals and would always support them outside ulster and did so in the early 90's. My issue with down now is around their supporters.
You ask why you would be jealous of a county with less success than you. Its fairly obvious from this thread. Down are now irrelevant and don't look like having much of a future for the next 10 years. Tyr Don and Mon are now leading the line in ulster with down prob second from the bottom. Bar 1 or 2 down posters all of you fail to commend or give credit where its due.
Instead you, like pete mc grath jump in behind southern begrudgers who are all to willing to criticise. Its as clear as day an you are the worst example.
2nd reason for jealousy is that you know deep down that tyrone team was probably better, came through more difficult times than any down team has ever faced and for that reason will always be remembered in the highest regard.
And why do you keep writing in the a poem format?
redhanddefender (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 28/07/2016 16:27:59
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Replying To redhanddefender: "I don't knock downs history. They were the originals and would always support them outside ulster and did so in the early 90's. My issue with down now is around their supporters.
You ask why you would be jealous of a county with less success than you. Its fairly obvious from this thread. Down are now irrelevant and don't look like having much of a future for the next 10 years. Tyr Don and Mon are now leading the line in ulster with down prob second from the bottom. Bar 1 or 2 down posters all of you fail to commend or give credit where its due.
Instead you, like pete mc grath jump in behind southern begrudgers who are all to willing to criticise. Its as clear as day an you are the worst example.
2nd reason for jealousy is that you know deep down that tyrone team was probably better, came through more difficult times than any down team has ever faced and for that reason will always be remembered in the highest regard.
And why do you keep writing in the a poem format?" Yet in this thread I have actually given Tyrone a lot
of credit despite the fact that I dislike them. I have
said you had great players and had a very good
team. I dislike the style of play you adopted. I
didn't say that Down in the 90s was better I merely
said it was a close call as it was a more advantageous
system Tyrone played under. I give Donegal and
Monaghan a lot of credit for their achievements also
and have done in the past.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 16:42:19
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "Do you not see that the qualifiers give teams a second
chance that teams never had before???" yes but you ignore that qualifier teams and the new system has to play and beat more difficult opponents than the old route..the old route was much easier
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/07/2016 17:04:39
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Replying To alano12: "yes but you ignore that qualifier teams and the new system has to play and beat more difficult opponents than the old route..the old route was much easier" But that's not true im 1993 and 1994 Down and Derry
had to play a heavyweight of the era in the very first
round. Dublin and Meath had to to face each other
four times in 1991 in the early rounds. Even if a team
loses in a provincial final they are not out so the earlier
games are much more stress free with a safety net.
Like if Tyrone had won three All Irelands under the same
system as us I would happily say their team was better.
The qualifiers gave teams a second chance so thats why
I said it was a close call. I actually think its a very fair
statement. How do you separate teams from different
eras playing under different systems, one more
advantageous than another were you couldn't lose at
all???
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 17:21:23
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Replying To redhanddefender: "I don't knock downs history. They were the originals and would always support them outside ulster and did so in the early 90's. My issue with down now is around their supporters.
You ask why you would be jealous of a county with less success than you. Its fairly obvious from this thread. Down are now irrelevant and don't look like having much of a future for the next 10 years. Tyr Don and Mon are now leading the line in ulster with down prob second from the bottom. Bar 1 or 2 down posters all of you fail to commend or give credit where its due.
Instead you, like pete mc grath jump in behind southern begrudgers who are all to willing to criticise. Its as clear as day an you are the worst example.
2nd reason for jealousy is that you know deep down that tyrone team was probably better, came through more difficult times than any down team has ever faced and for that reason will always be remembered in the highest regard.
And why do you keep writing in the a poem format?" Well Down won our last two All Irelands when the troubles
were still raging and loyalist violence had spiked. People
were massacred in a Loughinisland bar including a man
who was there to pick up his ticket for the Monaghan
semi final for the next day. Gary Mason was from that area
and was part of the Down team that lifted Sam Maguire that
September so its not fair to say we never overcame adversity.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 17:35:58
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Anyways we will agree to disagree !!!!!
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 17:39:34
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "Well Down won our last two All Irelands when the troubles
were still raging and loyalist violence had spiked. People
were massacred in a Loughinisland bar including a man
who was there to pick up his ticket for the Monaghan
semi final for the next day. Gary Mason was from that area
and was part of the Down team that lifted Sam Maguire that
September so its not fair to say we never overcame adversity." Very very fair point there!
Have to admit I overlooked the troubles aspect of Down's success
Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts: 237 - 28/07/2016 18:11:39
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "But that's not true im 1993 and 1994 Down and Derry
had to play a heavyweight of the era in the very first
round. Dublin and Meath had to to face each other
four times in 1991 in the early rounds. Even if a team
loses in a provincial final they are not out so the earlier
games are much more stress free with a safety net.
Like if Tyrone had won three All Irelands under the same
system as us I would happily say their team was better.
The qualifiers gave teams a second chance so thats why
I said it was a close call. I actually think its a very fair
statement. How do you separate teams from different
eras playing under different systems, one more
advantageous than another were you couldn't lose at
all???" it is true....you ignore the level of opponent teams have had to play in their quarter finals, tyrone beat dublin armagh kerry to win an all ireland in 2005..that is incredibly difficult to do, some years under the old system it was a cake walk for the good sides, kerry in 97 most notably...ulster was strong in the 90s but the standard was lower then compared to 00s with tyrone armagh and kerry being 3 of the greatest sides u will see around...you wouldnt say that if tyrone won it under the old system..you dont seem to understand that teams play with the system they have, you are quite clearly bitter about what tyrone have achieved as a county and you seem unable to let go off this..the reality is armagh were a better side than down...in the new system if you managed to beat a team in ulster you would have to play them again which is a very difficult thing to do..you are obsessed about a safety net...i think the current system is less flukey than the old which was more traditional cup style..you have to play much better teams now and its rare you will get a weak side in the all ireland final or semis even
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/07/2016 19:00:31
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Replying To alano12: "it is true....you ignore the level of opponent teams have had to play in their quarter finals, tyrone beat dublin armagh kerry to win an all ireland in 2005..that is incredibly difficult to do, some years under the old system it was a cake walk for the good sides, kerry in 97 most notably...ulster was strong in the 90s but the standard was lower then compared to 00s with tyrone armagh and kerry being 3 of the greatest sides u will see around...you wouldnt say that if tyrone won it under the old system..you dont seem to understand that teams play with the system they have, you are quite clearly bitter about what tyrone have achieved as a county and you seem unable to let go off this..the reality is armagh were a better side than down...in the new system if you managed to beat a team in ulster you would have to play them again which is a very difficult thing to do..you are obsessed about a safety net...i think the current system is less flukey than the old which was more traditional cup style..you have to play much better teams now and its rare you will get a weak side in the all ireland final or semis even" In fairness both sides overcame adversity
and had great sides. In my opinion what
the two sides achieved was similar and
that Down and Derry's All Irelands were
very special given the political backdrop
at the time. So as I said it the start its a
close call. Given the loyalist spike in
violence at that time the All Irelands
won by Down and Derry were extra
special in that climate.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 20:21:17
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