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Definitely Down 91-94. Football was at its strongest during that period esp in Ulster Derry, Donegal, Tyrone could all win an All Ireland and also very strong teams in other football counties Dublin, Meath, Cork, Mayo etc.
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 26/07/2016 12:43:03
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Replying To bad.monkey: "Definitely Down 91-94. Football was at its strongest during that period esp in Ulster Derry, Donegal, Tyrone could all win an All Ireland and also very strong teams in other football counties Dublin, Meath, Cork, Mayo etc." You may want to adjust your opinion Bad Monkey...
Because we're in agreement
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 26/07/2016 12:52:25
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Replying To IrishGael3: "What a load of baloney saying winning an All Ireland via back door negates the difficulty - are you for real? The 2 backdoor wins Tyrone had to play 7 and 9 games respectively against Kerry, Dublin, Armagh et al - nice and all as that Down team were theres no way they could have won those All Irelands." We beat an all time great Meath side, a much stronger
Dublin team than in the 00s, a fantastic Derry side who
were among the very best in Ireland and a Donegal team
who were excellent, also an upcoming Tyrone side in 1994.
Who else was there to beat???
We faded after 1996 but if there had of been qualifiers we
could have won another as could of Derry.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 12:52:33
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "Wrong. Under the old system Tyrone would have been
gone after an Ulster defeat. Having a second chance
makes it much easier. The old system was do or die.
I would have hated to have seen Derry again in 1994
after knocking them out." I would've thought it fairly obvious that sides don't always prioritise their provincial openers in the way they used to. Kerry treat the Munster championship as an opportunity to get fit, while Tyrone were never flying in any of the Ulster runs in the noughties (in the 3 years they won the AI, they had draws against Derry, Cavan and Down twice). Similarly this year, do you really think that Jim Gavin had Dublin firing on all cylinders in Leinster?
In the qualifier era, the top teams have long been aiming to peak in August, and that sometimes means that they have been shocked in May, only to re-emerge later in the summer. If it was under the old system, they'd have been much sharper in May/June, and most of those provincial shocks would never have happened.
Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 26/07/2016 12:53:10
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Replying To Thomas Clarke: "I would've thought it fairly obvious that sides don't always prioritise their provincial openers in the way they used to. Kerry treat the Munster championship as an opportunity to get fit, while Tyrone were never flying in any of the Ulster runs in the noughties (in the 3 years they won the AI, they had draws against Derry, Cavan and Down twice). Similarly this year, do you really think that Jim Gavin had Dublin firing on all cylinders in Leinster?
In the qualifier era, the top teams have long been aiming to peak in August, and that sometimes means that they have been shocked in May, only to re-emerge later in the summer. If it was under the old system, they'd have been much sharper in May/June, and most of those provincial shocks would never have happened." But in 2008 Tyrone couldn't defeat Down in over 160
minutes including a replay and extra time. And yet
you were able to build up and win the AI. In 2003
you were in big trouble against us in the Ulster final.
Armagh beat Tyrone in 05 final. Tyrone were certainly
geared up for Ulster finals. In the old system there was
no room for error and it was do or die. Surely you see it
is much easier to win if you have a second chance than
no mistakes as one bad game and you were out unlike
the second chance system we now have.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 13:04:52
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Down team of the early 90s or the Derry team in the mid 90s.
Both exceptional teams who played an exciting brand of football.
pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 26/07/2016 13:14:21
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "But in 2008 Tyrone couldn't defeat Down in over 160
minutes including a replay and extra time. And yet
you were able to build up and win the AI. In 2003
you were in big trouble against us in the Ulster final.
Armagh beat Tyrone in 05 final. Tyrone were certainly
geared up for Ulster finals. In the old system there was
no room for error and it was do or die. Surely you see it
is much easier to win if you have a second chance than
no mistakes as one bad game and you were out unlike
the second chance system we now have." I think you've made my point with your opening line. In May/2008, Tyrone were beaten over 160 minutes by an average Down side in early June. It's well known that, as they were an old side, Tyrone had not been training that hard that spring, preferring to pace themselves for a big push in later summer. They did this in other years too, as the age profile of the side rose (lads taking the league off, etc).
I don't believe that Down would've beaten Tyrone in August/Sept had they met them, nor do I think that Tyrone would have paced their training so much if they knew that they had to win in June.
Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 26/07/2016 13:30:39
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "We beat an all time great Meath side, a much stronger
Dublin team than in the 00s, a fantastic Derry side who
were among the very best in Ireland and a Donegal team
who were excellent, also an upcoming Tyrone side in 1994.
Who else was there to beat???
We faded after 1996 but if there had of been qualifiers we
could have won another as could of Derry." I think we'll have to agree to disagree - I was a big fan of the Down team of the early 90's and wanted them to win - but if you look at the 30 years that this post refers to, then Tyrone has to be the team with the All Irelands and Ulster titles they've won - they also lost a AI Final to Dubs in 1995 by 1 point and were in quite a few semi's over those years.
IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts: 1092 - 26/07/2016 13:49:15
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "But in 2008 Tyrone couldn't defeat Down in over 160
minutes including a replay and extra time. And yet
you were able to build up and win the AI. In 2003
you were in big trouble against us in the Ulster final.
Armagh beat Tyrone in 05 final. Tyrone were certainly
geared up for Ulster finals. In the old system there was
no room for error and it was do or die. Surely you see it
is much easier to win if you have a second chance than
no mistakes as one bad game and you were out unlike
the second chance system we now have." Jes I thought the down ones were back in the box for a year but something like this just can't resist! still haven't seen MissDown whatever ye call her! No doubt waiting until tyrone exit the championship. This chat is exactly why down are where they are today, lived in the past and thought they could get away with it.
Its pointless Tyrone and Down people commenting here as it will only go one way.
But for the record, Down did not have to come through the adversity that tyrone team faced and they still rose to the top!
redhanddefender (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 26/07/2016 13:59:23
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I believe Ulster was stronger during the early 90's than it was at any stage during the 00's. Down, Donegal, Derry were awesome. Three of the country's top footballing powerhouses. Tyrone were not too far behind either and could've won an All-Ireland in 95.
This provides the basis for why I believe the early 90's Down team was exceptional and only the Tyrone team of the 00's rivals it.
Armagh's Ulster dominance in the 00's was partly due to the fact that Antrim, Cavan, Down, Monaghan, Derry were useless. Donegal were average. It was also partly due to other teams having the ability to knock Tyrone out of Ulster before they met each other in the final. Yes, Armagh fans will remind me they beat Tyrone in 05. But who went on to win Sam?
The Armagh team of the 00's was a very good side, but not as good as the Down 91-94 or Tyrone 03-08 sides.
MourneArmy (Down) - Posts: 1787 - 26/07/2016 14:39:48
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Honestly, by a country mile, Tyrone 2005-2008
If i was picking the greatest sides of all time I would have Kerry in the 70's, Dublin in the present day and Tyrone in the 00's as the 3 greatest
Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 26/07/2016 14:51:40
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "Honestly, by a country mile, Tyrone 2005-2008
If i was picking the greatest sides of all time I would have Kerry in the 70's, Dublin in the present day and Tyrone in the 00's as the 3 greatest" It's only really Down fans and those with ulterior motives saying otherwise really.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 26/07/2016 15:01:28
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Maybe this will spell it out more clearly:
Armagh
1999 - Ulster Champions
2000 - Ulster Champions
2001 - Nothing (lost Ulster to champions Tyrone, and in qualifiers to AI champs Galway by a point)
2002 - Ulster & AI Champions
2003 - Nothing (lost AI final to Tyrone)
2004 - Ulster Champions
2005 - Ulster Champions & NFL Champions
2006 - Ulster Champions
2007 - Nothing
2008 - Ulster Champions
Down
1987 - Nothing
1988 - Nothing
1989 - Nothing
1990 - Nothing
1991 - Ulster & AI Champions
1992 - Nothing
1993 - Nothing
1994 - Ulster & AI Champions
1995 - Nothing
1996 - Nothing
1997 - Nothing
In all those years, Down only reached one other Ulster final (1996), whereas Armagh's record and consistency was tremendous.
I'd also dispute that the overall standard was higher in the early 90s. Meath and Mayo were in between sides, while Kerry were at their lowest ever ebb. Cork too were on the slide, having reached 4 successive finals between 87-90. Dublin were strong, though that Dublin side wasn't close to the current side, while Tyrone hadn't yet arrived by the time Down won their AIs. Derry and Donegal were both excellent sides.
Overall, I think with Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh to the fore, and very good Dublin, Donegal and Mayo sides just behind them, the mid noughties were certainly stronger that the early 90s. The top 3 were all better than anything from the early 90s, in my opinion. Despite this, Armagh had far more success than that Down team did, aside from the elusive 2nd AI that somehow escaped them. Again, I don't want this to seem like I'm disregarding Down, as I thought they were a brilliant side - i just think that we've seen a few better since.
Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 26/07/2016 15:46:23
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Replying To Thomas Clarke: "I think you've made my point with your opening line. In May/2008, Tyrone were beaten over 160 minutes by an average Down side in early June. It's well known that, as they were an old side, Tyrone had not been training that hard that spring, preferring to pace themselves for a big push in later summer. They did this in other years too, as the age profile of the side rose (lads taking the league off, etc).
I don't believe that Down would've beaten Tyrone in August/Sept had they met them, nor do I think that Tyrone would have paced their training so much if they knew that they had to win in June." The point is there was less pressure on them as they
knew they could afford a slip. Under the old system
the pressure was on straight away.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 15:58:29
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Replying To IrishGael3: "I think we'll have to agree to disagree - I was a big fan of the Down team of the early 90's and wanted them to win - but if you look at the 30 years that this post refers to, then Tyrone has to be the team with the All Irelands and Ulster titles they've won - they also lost a AI Final to Dubs in 1995 by 1 point and were in quite a few semi's over those years." Yeah like I take your point that they might have been more
consistent but in the All Irelands they won they contained
two defeats. They needed to use the second chance option
that teams in all eras.
We were very strong in the period 1991-1996.Our best team
was in the 60s winning 3 All Irelands and 6 Ulsters, every Ulster
final from 1958-1971 (winning 8).
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 16:16:35
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Replying To Thomas Clarke: "Maybe this will spell it out more clearly:
Armagh
1999 - Ulster Champions
2000 - Ulster Champions
2001 - Nothing (lost Ulster to champions Tyrone, and in qualifiers to AI champs Galway by a point)
2002 - Ulster & AI Champions
2003 - Nothing (lost AI final to Tyrone)
2004 - Ulster Champions
2005 - Ulster Champions & NFL Champions
2006 - Ulster Champions
2007 - Nothing
2008 - Ulster Champions
Down
1987 - Nothing
1988 - Nothing
1989 - Nothing
1990 - Nothing
1991 - Ulster & AI Champions
1992 - Nothing
1993 - Nothing
1994 - Ulster & AI Champions
1995 - Nothing
1996 - Nothing
1997 - Nothing
In all those years, Down only reached one other Ulster final (1996), whereas Armagh's record and consistency was tremendous.
I'd also dispute that the overall standard was higher in the early 90s. Meath and Mayo were in between sides, while Kerry were at their lowest ever ebb. Cork too were on the slide, having reached 4 successive finals between 87-90. Dublin were strong, though that Dublin side wasn't close to the current side, while Tyrone hadn't yet arrived by the time Down won their AIs. Derry and Donegal were both excellent sides.
Overall, I think with Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh to the fore, and very good Dublin, Donegal and Mayo sides just behind them, the mid noughties were certainly stronger that the early 90s. The top 3 were all better than anything from the early 90s, in my opinion. Despite this, Armagh had far more success than that Down team did, aside from the elusive 2nd AI that somehow escaped them. Again, I don't want this to seem like I'm disregarding Down, as I thought they were a brilliant side - i just think that we've seen a few better since." agree thomas...kerry and tyrone in the 00s are two of the best gaelic football teams ever and armagh were certainly as good as anything in the 90s and would have won more if it wasnt for kerry and tyrone...cork dublin were also good sides during that period
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 26/07/2016 16:19:11
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Replying To jimbodub: "You may want to adjust your opinion Bad Monkey...
Because we're in agreement" Right, cavan 1997 for me so...
Anymore who thinks football was stronger in the 00's compared to the early 90s is seriously delusional or too young to remember!
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 26/07/2016 16:36:21
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Replying To Thomas Clarke: "Maybe this will spell it out more clearly:
Armagh
1999 - Ulster Champions
2000 - Ulster Champions
2001 - Nothing (lost Ulster to champions Tyrone, and in qualifiers to AI champs Galway by a point)
2002 - Ulster & AI Champions
2003 - Nothing (lost AI final to Tyrone)
2004 - Ulster Champions
2005 - Ulster Champions & NFL Champions
2006 - Ulster Champions
2007 - Nothing
2008 - Ulster Champions
Down
1987 - Nothing
1988 - Nothing
1989 - Nothing
1990 - Nothing
1991 - Ulster & AI Champions
1992 - Nothing
1993 - Nothing
1994 - Ulster & AI Champions
1995 - Nothing
1996 - Nothing
1997 - Nothing
In all those years, Down only reached one other Ulster final (1996), whereas Armagh's record and consistency was tremendous.
I'd also dispute that the overall standard was higher in the early 90s. Meath and Mayo were in between sides, while Kerry were at their lowest ever ebb. Cork too were on the slide, having reached 4 successive finals between 87-90. Dublin were strong, though that Dublin side wasn't close to the current side, while Tyrone hadn't yet arrived by the time Down won their AIs. Derry and Donegal were both excellent sides.
Overall, I think with Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh to the fore, and very good Dublin, Donegal and Mayo sides just behind them, the mid noughties were certainly stronger that the early 90s. The top 3 were all better than anything from the early 90s, in my opinion. Despite this, Armagh had far more success than that Down team did, aside from the elusive 2nd AI that somehow escaped them. Again, I don't want this to seem like I'm disregarding Down, as I thought they were a brilliant side - i just think that we've seen a few better since." Thomas you lose the strength of your argument by
saying the 2000s was stronger than the 1990s. There
were only three good teams in the 2000s. The 1990s
were much more competitive. Ulster was murder to
win.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 16:50:26
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Tyrone without hesitation.
I liked the Armagh team but they didn't win enough All-Irelands,should have won another one anyway.Down did win 2 in the early 90's,but I think Meath would have beaten them in 91,but for the fact that Meath had to play 11 matches,the 4 games against Dublin took its tole..The Tyrone team of the 2000's were strong everywhere and won 3 All-Irelands,so I don't think there is an argument here..
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 26/07/2016 17:01:47
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: " Replying To Thomas Clarke: "Maybe this will spell it out more clearly:
Armagh
1999 - Ulster Champions
2000 - Ulster Champions
2001 - Nothing (lost Ulster to champions Tyrone, and in qualifiers to AI champs Galway by a point)
2002 - Ulster & AI Champions
2003 - Nothing (lost AI final to Tyrone)
2004 - Ulster Champions
2005 - Ulster Champions & NFL Champions
2006 - Ulster Champions
2007 - Nothing
2008 - Ulster Champions
Down
1987 - Nothing
1988 - Nothing
1989 - Nothing
1990 - Nothing
1991 - Ulster & AI Champions
1992 - Nothing
1993 - Nothing
1994 - Ulster & AI Champions
1995 - Nothing
1996 - Nothing
1997 - Nothing
In all those years, Down only reached one other Ulster final (1996), whereas Armagh's record and consistency was tremendous.
I'd also dispute that the overall standard was higher in the early 90s. Meath and Mayo were in between sides, while Kerry were at their lowest ever ebb. Cork too were on the slide, having reached 4 successive finals between 87-90. Dublin were strong, though that Dublin side wasn't close to the current side, while Tyrone hadn't yet arrived by the time Down won their AIs. Derry and Donegal were both excellent sides.
Overall, I think with Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh to the fore, and very good Dublin, Donegal and Mayo sides just behind them, the mid noughties were certainly stronger that the early 90s. The top 3 were all better than anything from the early 90s, in my opinion. Despite this, Armagh had far more success than that Down team did, aside from the elusive 2nd AI that somehow escaped them. Again, I don't want this to seem like I'm disregarding Down, as I thought they were a brilliant side - i just think that we've seen a few better since." Thomas you lose the strength of your argument by saying the 2000s was stronger than the 1990s. There were only three good teams in the 2000s. The 1990s were much more competitive. Ulster was murder to win."
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 26/07/2016 17:04:07
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