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The Best Ulster side of the last 30 years?

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It's hard to see Down getting back to the top table if some of these posts are a reflection of the attitudes that exist in the County. Listen Cavan were once the kingpins of Ulster and won 5 All-Ireland's by 1952. However along came Tyrone, Derry and most importantely Down in the late 1950's to win their first Ulster titles and significantly up the standard in Ulster. That does not take away from Cavan's achievement but it is considerably harder for them to even win Ulster nowadays. Down changed football in the 1960's with their brand of football and 3 titles were a just reward. Down, Donegal, Derry, Armagh and Tyrone all reached national finals between 1990-95 but I don't think the standard was as good as the Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal all-ireland winners in the new century. Down and Derry last won Ulster in 1994 and 1998 respectfully and maybe that's a reflection of the standard these three teams have set in Ulster. Football in the 21st century is a different game with the back door, improved training/fitness, more teams able to compete, etc etc. Outside Ulster we have seen two teams Kerry and Dublin that will eventually be seen as among the greatest of all time. The back door has seen Galway, Tyrone, Cork and Kerry win and all these teams deserved the wins under the rules that exist. The back door has not always suited Tyrone in the first year 2001 without the back door Tyrone may have faced Roscommon in the All-Ireland Semi-final instead they played Derry in a bruising quarter-final. Kerry instead of preparing for a semi-final after beating Cork had to play two matches verses Dublin in the Quarter-final.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 28/07/2016 20:24:47    1891709

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Replying To alano12:  "it is true....you ignore the level of opponent teams have had to play in their quarter finals, tyrone beat dublin armagh kerry to win an all ireland in 2005..that is incredibly difficult to do, some years under the old system it was a cake walk for the good sides, kerry in 97 most notably...ulster was strong in the 90s but the standard was lower then compared to 00s with tyrone armagh and kerry being 3 of the greatest sides u will see around...you wouldnt say that if tyrone won it under the old system..you dont seem to understand that teams play with the system they have, you are quite clearly bitter about what tyrone have achieved as a county and you seem unable to let go off this..the reality is armagh were a better side than down...in the new system if you managed to beat a team in ulster you would have to play them again which is a very difficult thing to do..you are obsessed about a safety net...i think the current system is less flukey than the old which was more traditional cup style..you have to play much better teams now and its rare you will get a weak side in the all ireland final or semis even"
Armagh weren't a better side than
Down.They were a very good side
but they won one All Ireland. While
Tyrone and Armagh were good sides
that 2003 Championship was an eye
sore.

Who was the better team of three
to watch??? Down by a mile more
entertaining than Armagh or Tyrone.
Do you accept Down's free flowing
style was more entertaining? ??

Tyrone and Armagh did great things
and should be remembered as great
teams. But their legacy for Ulster
football was bad when you see the
Ulster final this year which was dire.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 20:33:42    1891710

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Armagh weren't a better side than
Down.They were a very good side
but they won one All Ireland. While
Tyrone and Armagh were good sides
that 2003 Championship was an eye
sore.

Who was the better team of three
to watch??? Down by a mile more
entertaining than Armagh or Tyrone.
Do you accept Down's free flowing
style was more entertaining? ??

Tyrone and Armagh did great things
and should be remembered as great
teams. But their legacy for Ulster
football was bad when you see the
Ulster final this year which was dire."
In 1991 I was at the opening Ulster championship match in Newry in which Down rather lucky won 1-7 to 0.8 versus Armagh in a dire match. 1992 at Casement massive crowd and occasion Derry 0.12 - Down 0.9 (same score as the 2003 final all ireland final) once again very poor. 1993 Down thrashed by Derry in the first round at Newry. One could go on but you would struggle to find scores such as Tyrone had in 2003 0-23 versus Derry, 1-17 & 0-23 versus Down, 1-23 v Fermanagh.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 28/07/2016 21:14:58    1891726

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Well Down won our last two All Irelands when the troubles
were still raging and loyalist violence had spiked. People
were massacred in a Loughinisland bar including a man
who was there to pick up his ticket for the Monaghan
semi final for the next day. Gary Mason was from that area
and was part of the Down team that lifted Sam Maguire that
September so its not fair to say we never overcame adversity."
Yeah we will agree that the majority think you are wrong and that will do me. Enjoy the rest of the championship, Your club chapionship kicks of at the weekend doesnt it, i'm sure there will be lovely free flowing football on display, if the players decide to play

redhanddefender (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 28/07/2016 21:26:32    1891729

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Replying To Byanthon:  "In 1991 I was at the opening Ulster championship match in Newry in which Down rather lucky won 1-7 to 0.8 versus Armagh in a dire match. 1992 at Casement massive crowd and occasion Derry 0.12 - Down 0.9 (same score as the 2003 final all ireland final) once again very poor. 1993 Down thrashed by Derry in the first round at Newry. One could go on but you would struggle to find scores such as Tyrone had in 2003 0-23 versus Derry, 1-17 & 0-23 versus Down, 1-23 v Fermanagh."
Yeah not every game was great but
every team went out to attack. They
didn't play one or two forwards in
the forward line like is common place
nowadays and you would never have
seen the numbers of players in defence
that you do now.

But some people like modern defensive
football and they are entitled to their
opinion.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 28/07/2016 21:37:11    1891738

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Thomas Clarke: "Under the old system, Tyrone would now be facing Galway in an AI semi-final.

Under the new system, Tyrone will probably have to beat a very dangerous Mayo side, before we would be able to progress to play Galway in the semi.

Which is path would be more difficult for Tyrone?"

Equally under the old system Donegal would be out. Under the new system they are in a quater final. Which would you prefer?
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts:4151 - 28/07/2016 13:40:18 1

Not really sure of the relevance of your question - we're debating the level of difficulty, not preference.

I think the point has been made (by myself and many others) that it is more difficult to win an AI now than it was in the pre-qualifier era. My example above illustrates it clearly.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 28/07/2016 21:48:58    1891749

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Being very generous, I'd suggest that no more than 4 of those Down players would have made the Tyrone team in their 2003-2005 pomp, and even that is a push.

While he wouldn't have taken Jordan's no.7 jersey, I'd say DJ Kane could be accommodated at RHB. Ricey, Gormley, McMahon and McAnallen would have completed the defence.

Gregory McCartan was very talented though lacked discipline but, on talent alone, you could make a case for him over Hughes or McGinley.

In attack, Linden would be a certainty inside alongside Canavan and O'Neill, while Blaney would join Dooher and McGuigan in the half-forwards.

James McCartan, Ross Carr and Conor Deegan would have added depth on an otherwise all Tyrone bench.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 28/07/2016 22:03:34    1891762

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Armagh weren't a better side than
Down.They were a very good side
but they won one All Ireland. While
Tyrone and Armagh were good sides
that 2003 Championship was an eye
sore.

Who was the better team of three
to watch??? Down by a mile more
entertaining than Armagh or Tyrone.
Do you accept Down's free flowing
style was more entertaining? ??

Tyrone and Armagh did great things
and should be remembered as great
teams. But their legacy for Ulster
football was bad when you see the
Ulster final this year which was dire."
Anyone who has been successful over the last number of years have now a strategy in place, good self funding and a centre of excellence. Down like other counties are struggling as a result of this and need a ten year plan to improve in every aspect.
We need all to adapt to the current style of play and not reminisce of days gone by, everyone's all Ireland wins are special to that fan and is full of great family memories.
Stating our all Ireland win was harder than yours and therefore better is pathetic, furthermore equating a win to the conflict in the north is unbelievable.
County Down suffered no more from the conflict than any other county, check your history and all Gaa clubs suffered during the war and living in down for 40 years iam glad to say your attitude is the exception rather that rule.

therapy (Tyrone) - Posts: 24 - 28/07/2016 23:13:15    1891793

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Armagh weren't a better side than
Down.They were a very good side
but they won one All Ireland. While
Tyrone and Armagh were good sides
that 2003 Championship was an eye
sore.

Who was the better team of three
to watch??? Down by a mile more
entertaining than Armagh or Tyrone.
Do you accept Down's free flowing
style was more entertaining? ??

Tyrone and Armagh did great things
and should be remembered as great
teams. But their legacy for Ulster
football was bad when you see the
Ulster final this year which was dire."
tyrone were a better team to watch than down..you are seriously misguided on this..some of the football tyrone played was simply incredible, against kerry in 2005 final for instance or the hammering of us in 2008 which was some of the best football iv ever witnessed
its clear your bias has been unmasked and you are simply bitter, by that logic tyrone are much superior to down because they won 1 more all ireland?..armagh won more ulsters than down and would have won more had it not been for tyrone and kerry who are 2 of the best teams ever and better than anything down faced which is a fact

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 29/07/2016 00:24:16    1891810

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Replying To alano12:  "tyrone were a better team to watch than down..you are seriously misguided on this..some of the football tyrone played was simply incredible, against kerry in 2005 final for instance or the hammering of us in 2008 which was some of the best football iv ever witnessed
its clear your bias has been unmasked and you are simply bitter, by that logic tyrone are much superior to down because they won 1 more all ireland?..armagh won more ulsters than down and would have won more had it not been for tyrone and kerry who are 2 of the best teams ever and better than anything down faced which is a fact"
Right well you have totally lost the
plot if you think Tyrone are better
to watch than Down. So ill agree
to disagree with you. I think you
are wrong but I respect your
opinion.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 29/07/2016 05:17:33    1891818

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Replying To alano12:  "tyrone were a better team to watch than down..you are seriously misguided on this..some of the football tyrone played was simply incredible, against kerry in 2005 final for instance or the hammering of us in 2008 which was some of the best football iv ever witnessed
its clear your bias has been unmasked and you are simply bitter, by that logic tyrone are much superior to down because they won 1 more all ireland?..armagh won more ulsters than down and would have won more had it not been for tyrone and kerry who are 2 of the best teams ever and better than anything down faced which is a fact"
They played some good football at
times but the 2003 matches against
Kerry and Armagh were woeful to
watch. Wars of attrition. Down's
style was to attack. Tyrone's was on
a solid defensive base and counter
attack. They did run in big scores at
times by breaking at speed which
they were very good at.

We will agree to disagree. You say
I am biased but I have give Tyrone
credit. You have yet to give Down
an ounce of credit for what they
achieved yet.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 29/07/2016 05:32:32    1891819

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Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "Thomas Clarke: "Under the old system, Tyrone would now be facing Galway in an AI semi-final.

Under the new system, Tyrone will probably have to beat a very dangerous Mayo side, before we would be able to progress to play Galway in the semi.

Which is path would be more difficult for Tyrone?"

Equally under the old system Donegal would be out. Under the new system they are in a quater final. Which would you prefer?
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts:4151 - 28/07/2016 13:40:18 1

Not really sure of the relevance of your question - we're debating the level of difficulty, not preference.

I think the point has been made (by myself and many others) that it is more difficult to win an AI now than it was in the pre-qualifier era. My example above illustrates it clearly."
It was a simple point. Why use an example when you could look at Tyrone in 05 and 08. They would have been knocked out under the old system. Hardly easier. But it seems you have your head buried in the sand on this one. Agree to disagree

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 29/07/2016 07:45:51    1891824

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The Derry team of the 90s have to be considered. Incredibly consistent, they left a lot behind them in the championship. Won four League titles + the All-Ireland. Great article on the Ulster success in early 90s

http://www.balls.ie/gaa/340889/340889

towngoal (Galway) - Posts: 14 - 29/07/2016 09:50:06    1891850

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "
Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "Thomas Clarke: "Under the old system, Tyrone would now be facing Galway in an AI semi-final.

Under the new system, Tyrone will probably have to beat a very dangerous Mayo side, before we would be able to progress to play Galway in the semi.

Which is path would be more difficult for Tyrone?"

Equally under the old system Donegal would be out. Under the new system they are in a quater final. Which would you prefer?
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts:4151 - 28/07/2016 13:40:18 1

Not really sure of the relevance of your question - we're debating the level of difficulty, not preference.

I think the point has been made (by myself and many others) that it is more difficult to win an AI now than it was in the pre-qualifier era. My example above illustrates it clearly."
It was a simple point. Why use an example when you could look at Tyrone in 05 and 08. They would have been knocked out under the old system. Hardly easier. But it seems you have your head buried in the sand on this one. Agree to disagree"
Do you not think kerry found it harder with the back door in 05?

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 562 - 29/07/2016 10:12:20    1891857

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Replying To towngoal:  "The Derry team of the 90s have to be considered. Incredibly consistent, they left a lot behind them in the championship. Won four League titles + the All-Ireland. Great article on the Ulster success in early 90s

Derry" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.balls.ie/gaa/340889/340889"
Derry were the benchmark against which all the Ulster teams of the 90s measured themselves. Unlike Down and Donegal whose performances ranged from brilliant to dreadful, Derry were always competitive and always very tough to beat. They had very strong leaders throughout the team. In these regards, they weren't unlike Meath in the late 80s, or Armagh in the early 00s.

They were physically the most imposing of the early 90s Ulster sides, and in Tohill and Gormley they were clinical from placed balls. I always felt that there were 2 main reasons for their lack of further success:

1) They didn't have the star forwards that Donegal, Down or even Tyrone (i.e. Canavan) did. Derry's forwards were good but not great, and you always felt that they had to work that bit harder for scores than the likes of Down.

2) Their insane hunger of 1992-93 began to wane after the sacking of Eamonn Coleman in 1994. Looking back, it was a crazy decision by the county board, and one the players never forgave them for. In today's age of player power, I've no doubt that Coleman would have been retained.

Derry in the 90s were an excellent side - organised, driven, physically formidable and full of strong personalities. They also had a lot of very good footballers, even if they did lack the star power of a Linden, Canavan or Tony Boyle in attack.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 29/07/2016 10:24:29    1891865

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Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "Being very generous, I'd suggest that no more than 4 of those Down players would have made the Tyrone team in their 2003-2005 pomp, and even that is a push.

While he wouldn't have taken Jordan's no.7 jersey, I'd say DJ Kane could be accommodated at RHB. Ricey, Gormley, McMahon and McAnallen would have completed the defence.

Gregory McCartan was very talented though lacked discipline but, on talent alone, you could make a case for him over Hughes or McGinley.

In attack, Linden would be a certainty inside alongside Canavan and O'Neill, while Blaney would join Dooher and McGuigan in the half-forwards.

James McCartan, Ross Carr and Conor Deegan would have added depth on an otherwise all Tyrone bench."
Interesting point, however your bias is incredible to suggest you're being very generous in suggesting no more than 4 Down players from the double All-Ireland winning team would have made the Tyrone 2003-2005 team.

To the four Down players you mentioned (DJ Kane, Greg McCartan, Mickey Linden, Greg Blaney) I would add:

Neil Collins, a super goalkeeper. If it wasn't for some of his outstanding shot stopping we wouldn't have won any All-Ireland's in the early 90's. A crucial cog in the Down machine.

James McCartan, for me he would've walked into the Tyrone team 03-05. The double All-Star winner had it all. Speed, skill, stamina and as strong as an ox. Wee James would run all day. A magical footballer. He would've been suited to the modern game with his speed and swerving runs. The point he scored vs Derry in 94 was out of this world. Jesus, imagine the damage him and Brian Dooher would do together in the half forward line.

Ross Carr, an absolute unit in the half forward line. Scored 0-30 points in the 1991 championship. That stat alone is hard to look by! His free taking off the ground was first class. Big. strong, athletic. Ideal footballer for the 03-05 period. When strength mattered more than speed. Give me Ross Carr or James McCartan over Gerard Cavlan any day of the week.

MourneArmy (Down) - Posts: 1787 - 29/07/2016 11:29:12    1891902

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Replying To MourneArmy:  "Interesting point, however your bias is incredible to suggest you're being very generous in suggesting no more than 4 Down players from the double All-Ireland winning team would have made the Tyrone 2003-2005 team.

To the four Down players you mentioned (DJ Kane, Greg McCartan, Mickey Linden, Greg Blaney) I would add:

Neil Collins, a super goalkeeper. If it wasn't for some of his outstanding shot stopping we wouldn't have won any All-Ireland's in the early 90's. A crucial cog in the Down machine.

James McCartan, for me he would've walked into the Tyrone team 03-05. The double All-Star winner had it all. Speed, skill, stamina and as strong as an ox. Wee James would run all day. A magical footballer. He would've been suited to the modern game with his speed and swerving runs. The point he scored vs Derry in 94 was out of this world. Jesus, imagine the damage him and Brian Dooher would do together in the half forward line.

Ross Carr, an absolute unit in the half forward line. Scored 0-30 points in the 1991 championship. That stat alone is hard to look by! His free taking off the ground was first class. Big. strong, athletic. Ideal footballer for the 03-05 period. When strength mattered more than speed. Give me Ross Carr or James McCartan over Gerard Cavlan any day of the week."
Collins I'd entertain, though I'd edge towards Pascal McConnell for his extra height and long kickouts.

Neither Carr nor McCartan was as physically talented as Cavlan (for that matter, neither was Canavan or O'Neill), but that's kinda besides the point. My forward line would be Dooher, Blaney, McGuigan, Linden, O'Neill, Canavan. I don't think that Carr or McCartan would get in ahead of any of those, though I did admire both as players.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 29/07/2016 11:52:22    1891915

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Replying To achara:  "
Replying To bad.monkey:  "[quote=Thomas Clarke:  "Thomas Clarke: "Under the old system, Tyrone would now be facing Galway in an AI semi-final.

Under the new system, Tyrone will probably have to beat a very dangerous Mayo side, before we would be able to progress to play Galway in the semi.

Which is path would be more difficult for Tyrone?"

Equally under the old system Donegal would be out. Under the new system they are in a quater final. Which would you prefer?
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts:4151 - 28/07/2016 13:40:18 1

Not really sure of the relevance of your question - we're debating the level of difficulty, not preference.

I think the point has been made (by myself and many others) that it is more difficult to win an AI now than it was in the pre-qualifier era. My example above illustrates it clearly."
It was a simple point. Why use an example when you could look at Tyrone in 05 and 08. They would have been knocked out under the old system. Hardly easier. But it seems you have your head buried in the sand on this one. Agree to disagree"
Do you not think kerry found it harder with the back door in 05?"]I see your point Achara and yes Kerry did find it more difficult. The backdoor made winning the All Ireland more difficult for teams in less competitive provinces ie Kerry and less difficult for teams from more competitive provinces like Ulster - Down got no 2nd chances in an incredibly competive Ulster unlike Tyrone in 05 & 08 (and standard was lower in Ulster in these years compared to 91-94 where 3 different Ulster winners won the All Ireland each year). Two excellent teams but for me its Down team 91-94 as they won in a much stronger football era with no second chances

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 29/07/2016 12:22:51    1891938

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Right well you have totally lost the
plot if you think Tyrone are better
to watch than Down. So ill agree
to disagree with you. I think you
are wrong but I respect your
opinion."
I will just comment that I have seen all the great teams since the late fifties and the Down team of the sixties, with the O'Neills, McCartans, Doherty, Lennon among other fine stars, were the most exciting and naturally talented side I ever saw. I know this was not in the past thirty years, but I am just making that observation.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 29/07/2016 12:33:46    1891947

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Replying To towngoal:  "The Derry team of the 90s have to be considered. Incredibly consistent, they left a lot behind them in the championship. Won four League titles + the All-Ireland. Great article on the Ulster success in early 90s

Totally" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.balls.ie/gaa/340889/340889"
Totally agree magnificent side.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 29/07/2016 13:16:58    1891973

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