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Playing Devil's Advocate here

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realman2 (Kildare)

Possession is king in Gaelic football. It is very hard to dispossess a player unless you outnumber them. This would require Tyrone to commit a large number of players to attempt this, leaving space to play in behind. Donegal players are, and always have been, comfortable with playing the ball out from the back under pressure. The difference between that and doing it at the other end is sheer weight of numbers.

What your making up on having space your conceding on territory.

Look, you've been given the reasons your plan is flawed. No manager has ever employed such a strategy except in the last few minutes when teams defend a lead and don't try to score so what does that tell you? Surely if this was a good idea managers would employ it. You should appreciate that people have taken the time to highlight the shortcomings that make your idea a bad idea but you only see the positives of this plan and are completely blind to its huge flaws. There's no point in going around in circles with this so I'm out.

realman2 (Kildare) - Posts: 464 - 21/07/2016 10:39:04    1887444

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Replying To Curlew66:  "Ask any Donegal supporter or follower of gaelic games in general to choose between seeing Michael Murphy score goals like AI final 2012 or 'that point' v Galway in R.4 2015 or have him limited to a few long range punts from frees as on Sunday .
You are also asking a goalkeeper capable of kicking a ball 60m + to indulge in short kick outs as in the 2014 AI final.
Considering the outcome of the four games listed above should also help you decide which tactical route to go.
Complex tactics can often back fire and bite teams in the bum."
Don't see how this comment in any way relates to the discussion above. We're talking about what a team could do when 1) Well ahead on the score board 2) In possession and 3) still facing into a condensed blanket defence which is set up to turn you over and play on the counter

Would be interesting to see a team try it properly and not just in the final couple of minutes. It would make the team behind on the scoreboard make a decision. Either:

A) they stay in their packed defence and defo lose the game (and you deserve to lose for lack of ambition, someone mentioned Meath v Dublin in champ or Donegal v Dublin in the league as examples)
or
B) Go looking for the ball, press up, gamble. I think side effect of B could be the game opening up... so we'd see more things like Murphy's goal in 12 you mentioned

If you think about it, its really just an extension of the 'short kick out / pushing up on short kick out' debate. I think we all like to see teams push up on kick outs now, as it forces the midfield contests and generally opens games up

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 21/07/2016 10:51:20    1887458

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Replying To realman2:  "realman2 (Kildare)

Possession is king in Gaelic football. It is very hard to dispossess a player unless you outnumber them. This would require Tyrone to commit a large number of players to attempt this, leaving space to play in behind. Donegal players are, and always have been, comfortable with playing the ball out from the back under pressure. The difference between that and doing it at the other end is sheer weight of numbers.

What your making up on having space your conceding on territory.

Look, you've been given the reasons your plan is flawed. No manager has ever employed such a strategy except in the last few minutes when teams defend a lead and don't try to score so what does that tell you? Surely if this was a good idea managers would employ it. You should appreciate that people have taken the time to highlight the shortcomings that make your idea a bad idea but you only see the positives of this plan and are completely blind to its huge flaws. There's no point in going around in circles with this so I'm out."
Interesting debating style there Kildareman. By you logic, if no one has ever tried something before then it should never be tried?

I think they way football has changed in the last 6 years or so we are seeing new things all the time, e.g.
- Sweepers / double sweepers
- Blanket defence
- Return of the 'big man' FF to beat the blanlet
- half backs being the most attacking players on the pitch
- short kickouts - took a year or two before teams then decided to push up on short kickouts
- Keepers taking frees

question is what will be next...

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 21/07/2016 10:59:59    1887463

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Replying To himachechy:  "Don't see how this comment in any way relates to the discussion above. We're talking about what a team could do when 1) Well ahead on the score board 2) In possession and 3) still facing into a condensed blanket defence which is set up to turn you over and play on the counter

Would be interesting to see a team try it properly and not just in the final couple of minutes. It would make the team behind on the scoreboard make a decision. Either:

A) they stay in their packed defence and defo lose the game (and you deserve to lose for lack of ambition, someone mentioned Meath v Dublin in champ or Donegal v Dublin in the league as examples)
or
B) Go looking for the ball, press up, gamble. I think side effect of B could be the game opening up... so we'd see more things like Murphy's goal in 12 you mentioned

If you think about it, its really just an extension of the 'short kick out / pushing up on short kick out' debate. I think we all like to see teams push up on kick outs now, as it forces the midfield contests and generally opens games up"
just further to above, it is all predicated on the leading team starting to have trouble getting through the blanket they are facing (like Donegal on Sunday). They would need to be confident that the potential reward of stretching the defence more and exploiting it during that possession is greater than the risk of losing it in their own half (factoring in they might also end up losing on the oppositions 45 and end up getting countered)

I think better teams would have the confidence that they would be able to keep possession and exploit the extra space.

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 21/07/2016 11:15:42    1887477

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Replying To himachechy:  "
Replying To realman2:  "realman2 (Kildare)

Possession is king in Gaelic football. It is very hard to dispossess a player unless you outnumber them. This would require Tyrone to commit a large number of players to attempt this, leaving space to play in behind. Donegal players are, and always have been, comfortable with playing the ball out from the back under pressure. The difference between that and doing it at the other end is sheer weight of numbers.

What your making up on having space your conceding on territory.

Look, you've been given the reasons your plan is flawed. No manager has ever employed such a strategy except in the last few minutes when teams defend a lead and don't try to score so what does that tell you? Surely if this was a good idea managers would employ it. You should appreciate that people have taken the time to highlight the shortcomings that make your idea a bad idea but you only see the positives of this plan and are completely blind to its huge flaws. There's no point in going around in circles with this so I'm out."
Interesting debating style there Kildareman. By you logic, if no one has ever tried something before then it should never be tried?

I think they way football has changed in the last 6 years or so we are seeing new things all the time, e.g.
- Sweepers / double sweepers
- Blanket defence
- Return of the 'big man' FF to beat the blanlet
- half backs being the most attacking players on the pitch
- short kickouts - took a year or two before teams then decided to push up on short kickouts
- Keepers taking frees

question is what will be next..."
Come back to me after reading my posts in their entirity. Kevin from Tyrone and I laid out how this strategy would fail.

realman2 (Kildare) - Posts: 464 - 21/07/2016 11:23:11    1887484

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Replying To realman2:  "realman2 (Kildare)

Possession is king in Gaelic football. It is very hard to dispossess a player unless you outnumber them. This would require Tyrone to commit a large number of players to attempt this, leaving space to play in behind. Donegal players are, and always have been, comfortable with playing the ball out from the back under pressure. The difference between that and doing it at the other end is sheer weight of numbers.

What your making up on having space your conceding on territory.

Look, you've been given the reasons your plan is flawed. No manager has ever employed such a strategy except in the last few minutes when teams defend a lead and don't try to score so what does that tell you? Surely if this was a good idea managers would employ it. You should appreciate that people have taken the time to highlight the shortcomings that make your idea a bad idea but you only see the positives of this plan and are completely blind to its huge flaws. There's no point in going around in circles with this so I'm out."
First of all, thank you for taking the time to highlight the shortcomings.

"If you play as deep as possible in the opponents half then if you get a free its score-able or if a defending player slips/pulls up injured an attacking player has a good chance right away of a scoring chance.

If Donegal played keep ball in their own half it would mean if they got fouled they would have no option of a kick at goal. If they got turned over by Tyrone then Tyrone would have scoring chance right away or at least be one pass away from a scoring chance."

Tyrone kept us at a distance where we couldn't score frees anyway. We got a score from 50m but I'd say Tyrone would roll the dice from that distance regardless. There might be a bit more of a danger of losing the ball leading to a score but its debatable really. How many players would Tyrone commit to winning it back? Donegal would still have 9 or 10 players behind the ball so if they lost it, would still massively outnumber the Tyrone players. I just don't see how this is any more flawed than what Donegal tried to do. Its clear as day how dangerous Tyrone are on the break when you commit too many players to the attack and turn it over.

"The major risk is that while inviting tyrone players into the Donegal half if Tyrone got a turn over they would be right on top of goal. So either a point or goal would be the out come. Imagine trying this then getting dispossessed and a conceding a goal. The fans would have wrecked it.

At the very least it would be Donegal having to take the ball from their back line right up to tyrone half without giving the ball away or being dispossessed. It wouldn't work against well organised teams"

kevin03 (Tyrone)

Theres no reason to think they would be in on goal. I'm not talking about passing it around inside the penalty area; merely inside the half. If the ball was lost you would still have 9 or 10 players behind the ball ready to defend. And I don't get the point in the second paragraph. Teams work the ball from their backline all the time and the turnover rate for all teams is very low at this stage. The more bodies Tyrone commit just leaves more space in other areas. It would in fact work the best against well organised teams because thats the whole point of doing it in the first place - to force them to abandon their organised defence inside their 45.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 21/07/2016 22:32:28    1887944

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benjyyy I actually think you suggestion has a lot of merit. For a start, if you did get turned over, you would have all your players back anyway and the opposition would have no space to break into. However surely it would be limited to seeing out a lead in the last 5-10 minutes. Would it really be viable to defend a lead for an entire half like Donegal did last Sunday? What would happen if the game was level and both sides adopted this strategy lol?

One thing is for sure, gaelic football is going to evolve very quickly in the future, as it is being analysed to death and new tactics will result. Before you know it the blanket defence will be history.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 22/07/2016 13:25:58    1888164

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Dublin have done it a couple of times in Croke Park in League games. Brutal to watch but a 3 point lead is a 3 point lead. What I found amazing was the teams didnt push out. There was an acceptance of losing. They were almost happy to lose......and afterwards the managers praised their set up. They lost. Utter madness.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 22/07/2016 13:56:50    1888191

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "benjyyy I actually think you suggestion has a lot of merit. For a start, if you did get turned over, you would have all your players back anyway and the opposition would have no space to break into. However surely it would be limited to seeing out a lead in the last 5-10 minutes. Would it really be viable to defend a lead for an entire half like Donegal did last Sunday? What would happen if the game was level and both sides adopted this strategy lol?

One thing is for sure, gaelic football is going to evolve very quickly in the future, as it is being analysed to death and new tactics will result. Before you know it the blanket defence will be history."
I wouldn't look at it as defending a lead. You could just do it once or a few times to throw a curve ball at the defending team. There was definitely a point about 10 minutes into the second half on Sunday when we could have done it, as we weren't getting through the blanket by conventional means.

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 22/07/2016 16:11:03    1888281

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Replying To JayP:  "Dublin have done it a couple of times in Croke Park in League games. Brutal to watch but a 3 point lead is a 3 point lead. What I found amazing was the teams didnt push out. There was an acceptance of losing. They were almost happy to lose......and afterwards the managers praised their set up. They lost. Utter madness."
Agree not pushing up when you are behind is madness. I doubt Tyrone would have sat back when 3 points down though... they would have come looking for it...then...bye bye blanket

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 22/07/2016 16:12:31    1888282

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Replying To JayP:  "Dublin have done it a couple of times in Croke Park in League games. Brutal to watch but a 3 point lead is a 3 point lead. What I found amazing was the teams didnt push out. There was an acceptance of losing. They were almost happy to lose......and afterwards the managers praised their set up. They lost. Utter madness."
I remember Dublin doing it to Donegal in the league game earlier this year. Dublin were 4 or 5 points up and played keep ball around the half line and Donegal sat in their blanket defence. I actually thought it was quite clever of Dublin, they turned the tables on Donegal and frustrated the life out of them. I bet we might see Dublin doing it later on in the championship, be prepared for the backlash from the football purists.

When Donegal played keep ball in the first half the Dublin fans were booing, when Dublin played keep ball in the second half the Dublin fans were cheering and the Donegal fans were going mad at our own team lol. You couldn't make it up. I guess we will have to get used to these kind of tactics in the future.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 22/07/2016 17:24:16    1888316

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Very evident yesterday and I applaud both Mayo and Dublin for doing it. Dublin were a bit better at it as it seemed like once the booing started some of the Mayo players started to panic!

I believe the tactic will become more prevalent and eventually fans will become more educated on the reason for doing it and stop booing or at least redirect their boos to the team sitting in their shell and not pushing out.

Dublin got so much space for their goal yesterday because we had to push up on them, even though we had 2 extra men. Obviously the freshness of Mannion against our exhausted defence helped too!

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 07/08/2016 11:13:10    1897220

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