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Replying To kevin03: "The major risk is that while inviting tyrone players into the Donegal half if Tyrone got a turn over they would be right on top of goal. So either a point or goal would be the out come. Imagine trying this then getting dispossessed and a conceding a goal. The fans would have wrecked it. At the very least it would be Donegal having to take the ball from their back line right up to tyrone half without giving the ball away or being dispossessed. It wouldn't work against well organised teams" There is definitely risk. But there is also risk in messing about with the ball on the edge of a condensed defence which is determined to bottle you up and turn you over. When the turn over happens everyone is high up the pitch with loads of space behind. I think it has potential to stretch the defending team out. That would create more space and you'd think more space would allow for more attacking play through either kick passes or running moves. Obviously could only be used in certain scenarios. Listen, if someone said 10 years ago all top teams (Kerry & Dublin.... come on, you know you do!) and not so top teams would play long periods with 14 behind the ball... people would've laughed. Game is evolving, this is just another tactic to be utilized himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 20/07/2016 15:18:51 1887080 Link
Replying To kevin03: "The major risk is that while inviting tyrone players into the Donegal half if Tyrone got a turn over they would be right on top of goal. So either a point or goal would be the out come. Imagine trying this then getting dispossessed and a conceding a goal. The fans would have wrecked it. At the very least it would be Donegal having to take the ball from their back line right up to tyrone half without giving the ball away or being dispossessed. It wouldn't work against well organised teams" If using that tactic carries greater risk for Donegal than what they did Sunday then surely Tyrone should have been pushing up anyway, rather than retreating to their own 45? It applies to all teams, just using Sunday as an example. Dublin done something like this in the last 10 minutes against Meath, it was like the West Germany v Austria game from the 82 world cup! Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 20/07/2016 15:36:08 1887091 Link
Replying To seanie_boy: "Or Ye could've tried a few long shots ....or long ball in to Murphy and mc brearty.....or instead of retreating try and break the tackle and get a shot off." Murphys talents have been wasted over the last few years. ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 20/07/2016 15:41:19 1887094 Link
Honestly feel its some here's life ambition to see a score line of 0-1 to 0-0 and then come on here and tell us of its brilliance . Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 20/07/2016 15:44:53 1887101 Link
Kevin - i honestos done ser the te Boeing a greater risk doing it in your own half. You would have at least 7 or 8 bodies behind the ball still. Realistically, how many men are Tyrone going to send up to try to win it back? 4 or 5? Then we have a big numbers advantage and should be able to work the ball into space. Even if we are dispossessed we should have enough numbers to prevent a goal and if we lose a point, so what - we were leaking points getting turned over on Tyrones 50 anyway. As for getting score able frees doing it closer to Tyrones goal; well we got 1 from it but that was a mammoth kick against the wind. Tyrone are banking that we will only score 3 or 4 out of 10 from that range and a miss virtually guarantees them possession back from a short kickout. Possession is king in football because unless you have 2 or 3 vs 1, it's very hard to dispossess someone who has support nearby. As for the last post about us wanting to see a 1-0. Honestly it's not like that. But you need to have a tactic to counter act this style of play. Tyrone wanted us to run into that wall. They wanted us to try to kick it long into a 4 vs 2 in their favour. Why, when we have a 4 point lead (or indeed in any situation) and would you do exactly what the other team want you to do? Sometimes you have to think outside the box and be unconventional. Just because something is unheard of now and frowned upon, doesn't mean it won't be standard practice in the future. benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 20/07/2016 16:38:02 1887139 Link
Ah I notice my Spanish predictive keyboard kicked in at the start of my last post! benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 20/07/2016 16:54:37 1887148 Link
Replying To benjyyy: "Kevin - i honestos done ser the te Boeing a greater risk doing it in your own half. You would have at least 7 or 8 bodies behind the ball still. Realistically, how many men are Tyrone going to send up to try to win it back? 4 or 5? Then we have a big numbers advantage and should be able to work the ball into space. Even if we are dispossessed we should have enough numbers to prevent a goal and if we lose a point, so what - we were leaking points getting turned over on Tyrones 50 anyway. As for getting score able frees doing it closer to Tyrones goal; well we got 1 from it but that was a mammoth kick against the wind. Tyrone are banking that we will only score 3 or 4 out of 10 from that range and a miss virtually guarantees them possession back from a short kickout. Possession is king in football because unless you have 2 or 3 vs 1, it's very hard to dispossess someone who has support nearby. As for the last post about us wanting to see a 1-0. Honestly it's not like that. But you need to have a tactic to counter act this style of play. Tyrone wanted us to run into that wall. They wanted us to try to kick it long into a 4 vs 2 in their favour. Why, when we have a 4 point lead (or indeed in any situation) and would you do exactly what the other team want you to do? Sometimes you have to think outside the box and be unconventional. Just because something is unheard of now and frowned upon, doesn't mean it won't be standard practice in the future." The question is a matter of timing ,a few minutes to go couple of points up there is a pragmatic approach to take , but here in lays the problem 5 pts up 20 mins to go playing around in your own half , will eventually put people asleep and off the game for good Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 20/07/2016 17:04:20 1887151 Link
Replying To Damothedub: "The question is a matter of timing ,a few minutes to go couple of points up there is a pragmatic approach to take , but here in lays the problem 5 pts up 20 mins to go playing around in your own half , will eventually put people asleep and off the game for good" It's just not an effective strategy. There's clear flaws in it that have been highlighted by Kevin and myself. realman2 (Kildare) - Posts: 464 - 20/07/2016 17:16:47 1887159 Link
Replying To realman2: "It's just not an effective strategy. There's clear flaws in it that have been highlighted by Kevin and myself." Going to have to agree to disagree on this. Don't see how you can dismiss it as an effective strategy without seeing it in action. I certainly think it is more effective than the current strategy that teams employ. Are the flaws really greater than the flaws of committing so many men forward in order to play through it? benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 20/07/2016 17:23:10 1887165 Link
Its a very difficult strategy to implement if only for the reason that as a defender or attacker you are confident in going forward, passing backwards is just something a lot of lads who not feel comfortable doing no because of any moral objections but there would be the extra nervousness of knowing that if the pass goes astray it could be a goal. There is way more pressure say on a goalkeeper taking a short kickout than kicking it long. The forwards may be outnumbered but they have nothing to lose by chasing down what seem to be hopeless causes, a defenders playing around with the ball at the back, its not natural for them. Anyway not along would it kill a game for the crowd but I think it would also put players off playing. With the 14 man defence everyone is a defender and an attacker - this would make players stop and think is this what you play football for. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1805 - 20/07/2016 17:44:59 1887179 Link
Replying To benjyyy: "Going to have to agree to disagree on this. Don't see how you can dismiss it as an effective strategy without seeing it in action. I certainly think it is more effective than the current strategy that teams employ. Are the flaws really greater than the flaws of committing so many men forward in order to play through it?" The fact that we haven't seen it anytime in a game except in the last 2 minutes to run down the clock might be the key point of why it wouldn't be effective. Its far too risky to cede territory so far back that you are in possession of the ball under pressure in a part of the field where you can't score or can't win scoreable free kicks but your opponent can score and win scoreable free kicks. realman2 (Kildare) - Posts: 464 - 20/07/2016 17:48:01 1887181 Link
Try kicking the ball for once..spread a few passes for feck sake..take a risk..try a few long range shots like peter harte did..better than just handpassing sideways into a wall of defenders..your own game lost ya the match mate.. GGdub (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 20/07/2016 18:07:35 1887192 Link
Replying To Damothedub: "Honestly feel its some here's life ambition to see a score line of 0-1 to 0-0 and then come on here and tell us of its brilliance ." True and depressingly so, you can almost hear them in the bar "678 hand-passes in the first 15 minutes - legends". arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 20/07/2016 20:29:48 1887238 Link
Ughhh, so many posts I vehemently disagree with here and I will detail this soon when I eventually get home from work. benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 20/07/2016 21:32:20 1887284 Link
Replying To Damothedub: "Honestly feel its some here's life ambition to see a score line of 0-1 to 0-0 and then come on here and tell us of its brilliance ." 1889 final Tipperary 3-06 Laois 0-00 Or how about 1978 when it was not so good looking for the Dubs when Kerry hammered them by 5-11 to 0-09. Is that the games we are meant to be longing for lads? A 17 point hammering in the penultimate game of our championship. You can keep it lads I'll take the game as it is now. seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 20/07/2016 23:09:11 1887339 Link
It is a really interesting theory. If my memory serves me correct Dublin did this to Donegal in our league back in March. Dublin were 4 or 5 points up with 5 minutes left and just played keep ball in their own half, Donegal never pushed up and Dublin ran out confirtable winners. The Donegal fas were furious that we didn't push up. The big issue with it is that if you got turned over in your own 45 the opposition woud potentially be in on goals. Please don't mention these tactics to Rory Gallagher as he would love it, he'd be trying to win games 0-1 to 0-0 lol. Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 20/07/2016 23:48:15 1887349 Link
Taking it to an extreme - tyrone Had a few " misses" that didn't get within 30 yards of the post - we lost possession in the tackle - therefore in tyrones attacks if there was no quick breakthrough - give the ball away and regroup / we gave the ball away and allowed Tyrone counter at pace before we had re set ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 21/07/2016 00:08:14 1887356 Link
zinny (Wexford) "Its a very difficult strategy to implement if only for the reason that as a defender or attacker you are confident in going forward, passing backwards is just something a lot of lads who not feel comfortable doing no because of any moral objections but there would be the extra nervousness of knowing that if the pass goes astray it could be a goal." I just can't accept this. Passing backwards is just the norm these days - the stigma is gone. I don't accept that passing the ball around on the halfway line leads to the chance of conceding a goal unless Tyrone were to commit an inordinate amount of players to chasing after the ball and Donegal for some reason had loads of players ahead of it. If a pass went astray, Donegal would still have at least 8 players behind the ball; more than when they conceded it to Tyrone on their 45. realman2 (Kildare) - "The fact that we haven't seen it anytime in a game except in the last 2 minutes to run down the clock might be the key point of why it wouldn't be effective." I don't follow the logic here. You are saying it wouldn't be effective because nobody has properly tried it? Doesn't make sense. realman2 (Kildare) "Its far too risky to cede territory so far back that you are in possession of the ball under pressure in a part of the field where you can't score or can't win scoreable free kicks but your opponent can score and win scoreable free kicks." Possession is king in Gaelic football. It is very hard to dispossess a player unless you outnumber them. This would require Tyrone to commit a large number of players to attempt this, leaving space to play in behind. Donegal players are, and always have been, comfortable with playing the ball out from the back under pressure. The difference between that and doing it at the other end is sheer weight of numbers. GGdub (Dublin) "Try kicking the ball for once..spread a few passes for feck sake..take a risk..try a few long range shots like peter harte did..better than just handpassing sideways into a wall of defenders..your own game lost ya the match mate.." I've already covered this. Yes we should have varied our strategy a bit more (but it would have had a limited effect being outnumbered as we were). Peter Harte scored a wonder point but he was helped by the breeze and it is a low percentage shot (he missed from easier positions in the first half). And this is not sour grapes, purely tactical analysis. I've already congratulated Tyrone and said they deserved to win. arock (Dublin) Replying To Damothedub: "Honestly feel its some here's life ambition to see a score line of 0-1 to 0-0 and then come on here and tell us of its brilliance ." True and depressingly so, you can almost hear them in the bar "678 hand-passes in the first 15 minutes - legends". You are completely missing the point of this thread I'm afraid. benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 21/07/2016 00:23:00 1887362 Link
Replying To ruanua: "Taking it to an extreme - tyrone Had a few " misses" that didn't get within 30 yards of the post - we lost possession in the tackle - therefore in tyrones attacks if there was no quick breakthrough - give the ball away and regroup / we gave the ball away and allowed Tyrone counter at pace before we had re set" This was absolutely a factor. If you watch the second half again - almost all of Tyrone's attacks resulted in the ball going dead. They attacked fast and with purpose, which often resulted in them attempting low percentage shots. Their abysmal conversion rate says as much. However, the cardinal sin was to turnover the ball thus facilitating a counter attack. We did that far more than they did. But its clear we were fully aware of this danger and the reason why we were actually really intelligent about avoiding cul-de-sacs where we would be dispossessed. It happened a few times but we were clearly wary; we just didn't know how to beat it. benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 21/07/2016 00:30:30 1887363 Link
Ask any Donegal supporter or follower of gaelic games in general to choose between seeing Michael Murphy score goals like AI final 2012 or 'that point' v Galway in R.4 2015 or have him limited to a few long range punts from frees as on Sunday . You are also asking a goalkeeper capable of kicking a ball 60m + to indulge in short kick outs as in the 2014 AI final. Considering the outcome of the four games listed above should also help you decide which tactical route to go. Complex tactics can often back fire and bite teams in the bum. Curlew66 (Roscommon) - Posts: 507 - 21/07/2016 09:07:34 1887394 Link