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The main thing that needs to change ? Mentality

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Replying To Cully:  "Laois beat Dublin in 2003 and that was at a time when Dublin only won one Leinster in nine years. As I keep posting (most posts blocked), the Dubs were heavily funded from 2004 onwards. Look at the improvement in hurling and football since then. The way Dubs fans talk, you did it all on your own, but the simple fact is you've had millions more to spend on your one team, that the rest of the country had on 31 teams.

Anyway, I digress somewhat.

Despite their size and tradition, Dublin had to be broken and remoulded, as Clare in 95 and Wexford in 96 were. They were losers on the bigger stage, but Gilroy changed that. I'd love to know what he did, but it certainly worked. You'd wonder though, if Dublin hadn't fluked the win in 2011, as they did, would we be talking about them at all?"
Dublin didn't fluke winning 2011 final, it was won fair and square, typical anti Dublin begrudgery.

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 01/07/2016 09:54:39    1874538

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Replying To superbluedub:  "Dublin didn't fluke winning 2011 final, it was won fair and square, typical anti Dublin begrudgery."
Don't even bother with him/her. Let them away at it!!

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 01/07/2016 10:06:02    1874542

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there's no doubt that funding is an important part of teams preparations and that Dublin perhaps have a slight advantage. However lets not forget that at the height of Dublins reign (still is the height mind) a completely wrote off Donegal team came along and beat them in the semi final in 2014. This proves that any team is capable of losing and winning on a given day. If you look at a lot of counties in Ireland there is potential for all irelands with the right coaching and preparation and HARD WORK.
So instead of people coming out complaining about too many games, not enough games, not enough games against better opposition, too many games against better opposition hindering their development maybe they should get the house in order set a target and get there and move on to the next target. its been done before by lots of counties. there's always room for a new team to break through.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 01/07/2016 10:27:33    1874551

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Ye can have all the mentality you want, if you dont have the players to begin with it makes little difference.

Some of the talk on here is something akin to a disney movie "Jim Mc Guinness took a team of no hopers, broken men and made them Champions" The Mighty Ducks story of the modern age and and inspiration and proof all you need is belief and mentaility!!

Donegal had a decent team to begin with a few good players coming through with decent underage players. Donegal werent Carlow/Wicklow or anything like it and Jim MC Guinness took them and got the best out of them.

You need the players coming through to begin with and for that you need the coaching. Every county in the country would love to be able to emulate what Dublin are doing but never will be able to because of the gap in funding for Dublin and everyone else.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1337 - 01/07/2016 10:48:19    1874560

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Mentality is very important ingredient to success but there are about half a dozen traits that teams need e.g. skill, organisation, cynicism etc etc, not all in equal measure, but required all the same. If a team with mentality could show up and win then you would see a lot more names on the Sam Maguire cup over the last 40years. Yes it is important but it is a very simplistic view to say that is all that needs to change.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/07/2016 11:03:01    1874567

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And I suppose further to that using the examples of Japan, ROI, NI, Tipp, Galway and Cavan - none of these, despite their heroics have won the big prize, upsets happen in all sports around the globe but it does not mean that the teams who have upset the odds could be considered to have arrived at the top table. In Gaelic football we have entered an era where at county level you are almost looking at a professional set-up in some counties. This will probably be more defining going forward than any amount of mentality.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/07/2016 11:10:23    1874573

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Leicester , premiership champions.
Connaught , pro 12 champions.
Iceland , topped group and continue to beat so called big dogs.
Just a few examples of teams with relatively small resources that only recently have shown what is possible without what many seem to think is necessary. Hard graft and unity with no little skill far more important than the usual excuses.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 01/07/2016 11:46:29    1874601

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Replying To Naysayer:  "Mentality is very important ingredient to success but there are about half a dozen traits that teams need e.g. skill, organisation, cynicism etc etc, not all in equal measure, but required all the same. If a team with mentality could show up and win then you would see a lot more names on the Sam Maguire cup over the last 40years. Yes it is important but it is a very simplistic view to say that is all that needs to change."
I didn't say that's the sole thing that needs to change.

I said its one thing that needs to change. One of the most important things too in my opinion.

And that doesn't cost a cent.

A loser mentality gets nobody anywhere in life.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 01/07/2016 12:24:49    1874628

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Replying To Dubh_linn:  "Leicester , premiership champions.
Connaught , pro 12 champions.
Iceland , topped group and continue to beat so called big dogs.
Just a few examples of teams with relatively small resources that only recently have shown what is possible without what many seem to think is necessary. Hard graft and unity with no little skill far more important than the usual excuses."
This here is exactly the point I'm making.

I'm not saying Iceland are going to win the euros.

But as I have said, they have 0 professional clubs and a relatively tiny population. And they are competing against some much, much bigger sides.

And its not a one off, They beat England, Drew with Portugal, finished above Holland, Turkey and the Czech Republic in their qualifying group conceding only 6 goals.

Spending money can certainly be an advantage, but it doesn't guarantee anything. Leicester winning the premier league spending peanuts compared to the Citys, Uniteds, Liverpools of this world.

I'm not saying Leitrims, Carlows, Louths etc can go out next year and win Sam, But teams can at least be competitive.

A change of mentality should be the starting point. This craic of we don't have the same resources so we cant compete is so negative.

Iceland don't have the same resources at England, Connacht have limited resources, Galway haven't had the financial backing that Mayo have, similarly Tipp with Cork. It doesn't stop those boys competing.

Excuses are sad.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 01/07/2016 12:36:12    1874633

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Replying To waynoI:  "This here is exactly the point I'm making.

I'm not saying Iceland are going to win the euros.

But as I have said, they have 0 professional clubs and a relatively tiny population. And they are competing against some much, much bigger sides.

And its not a one off, They beat England, Drew with Portugal, finished above Holland, Turkey and the Czech Republic in their qualifying group conceding only 6 goals.

Spending money can certainly be an advantage, but it doesn't guarantee anything. Leicester winning the premier league spending peanuts compared to the Citys, Uniteds, Liverpools of this world.

I'm not saying Leitrims, Carlows, Louths etc can go out next year and win Sam, But teams can at least be competitive.

A change of mentality should be the starting point. This craic of we don't have the same resources so we cant compete is so negative.

Iceland don't have the same resources at England, Connacht have limited resources, Galway haven't had the financial backing that Mayo have, similarly Tipp with Cork. It doesn't stop those boys competing.

Excuses are sad."
I agree with your sentiment.

What I would say is that people involved are trying to do their best.

All the success stories are collective efforts, an individual player can't change things.

For every Leicester there's at least one Aston Villa. Both clubs tried to go down a route of looking for cheap players who the market was undervaluing. Leicester were smart about it and unearthed some real diamonds, we all know what happened Aston Villa.

People involved in inter county GAA playing or managing are all doing their best. It's not a bad attitude problem. There's only 1 team can win Sam every year, there's only 4 provincial winners but most counties are working hard to improve their situation. The world is competitive there are winners and losers and I don't think the losers are just people that have no backbone or are excuse merchants, I think they're just not as good as the likes of Dublin.

Antrim lost to both Meath and Limerick last week. Coming into both games we were seen as favourites and lost. I hate when guys question the teams commitment though. These are the guys who've put in effort to get to where they are. They devote ridiculous amounts of their time to doing their best for Antrim, those guys have the right mentality, they just aren't good enough.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 01/07/2016 13:00:38    1874647

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The correct mentality is important, very important but there is always a glass ceiling with mentality alone. Dublin are probably a good example of how the correct mentality installed saw them going from perennial underachievers to kingpins but they have always had an embarrassment of riches to pick from as well as most needs catered for. Leicester is a flash in the pan and was down to mentality as well as some very good players, a very good system, good luck with injuries, a very short fixture list along with making the best of teams playing into their hands for most of the season by underestimating them but it certainly was not mentality alone that won them the league and you will probably see where this mentality gets them next season in the Champions League and indeed in the league with the extra demands of European football. I cannot comment on Connacht as I am not particularly interested in Pro12 rugby as for me the European cup is the pinnacle of club (or in the case of Irish teams - Provincial) rugby.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/07/2016 13:02:32    1874648

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Its all well and good telling people that mentality is key, what is being glossed over is the attitude towards the teams who arose with their great mentalities. Its a relatively recent thing but the Armaghs, Tyrones and Donegals were resolutely criticised and labelled as the destroyers of gaelic football.

So as well as mentality, thick skin and absolute belief are needed as well as funding etc.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 01/07/2016 13:39:11    1874657

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Seems like for every achievement there's an excuse or a reason someone else didn't perform. Mentality indeed.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 01/07/2016 13:45:33    1874659

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Replying To Dubh_linn:  "Seems like for every achievement there's an excuse or a reason someone else didn't perform. Mentality indeed."
On the contrary I would say it is about ALL the ingredients.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/07/2016 14:05:03    1874671

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Replying To Naysayer:  "On the contrary I would say it is about ALL the ingredients."
That's the point, the instances I've mentioned were all achieved by teams without the ingredients the bigger outfits have. They started with the same amount of players , the same amount of games but less in terms of resources and money and a better mentality .
That is why the achieved what is often considered impossible .

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 01/07/2016 14:16:10    1874675

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Antrim lost to both Meath and Limerick last week. Coming into both games we were seen as favourites and lost. I hate when guys question the teams commitment though. These are the guys who've put in effort to get to where they are. They devote ridiculous amounts of their time to doing their best for Antrim, those guys have the right mentality, they just aren't good enough.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:449 - 01/07/2016 13:00:38 1874647

You might be right about some players in Antrim having total commitment to the cause but to say that all of them do is naive. There are several examples of players who jack in the county jersey as soon as the club championship begins. Some even book holidays when they know they've got county matches to play. That is far from the right mentality and even if its only a few lads its enough to ruin the match preparation for the rest of the committed players, whom I do have sympathy for.

As far as talent goes, our young players don't seem to have any problems getting on college teams and holding their own amongst the best in Ulster and beyond. Its just a shame we don't have the same leadership in our county who can get the same performances from those players. Mentality certainly plays its part in all of this but its by no means the only issue.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 01/07/2016 14:31:34    1874686

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Replying To Dubh_linn:  "That's the point, the instances I've mentioned were all achieved by teams without the ingredients the bigger outfits have. They started with the same amount of players , the same amount of games but less in terms of resources and money and a better mentality .
That is why the achieved what is often considered impossible ."
You will as get exceptions to the rule and perfect storms but I do not see continued success or status changes based on mentality alone and without other key ingredients. I actually think it is disingenuous to suggest that teams just need to get their heads right and they will be onto a winner. I wish I was that simple but sadly there is a lot more to it than that.

In terms of international football I think where the like of Iceland are succeeding and England failing is in the ability/inability to play to their strengths. For me international football is a funny thing because players only come together for short periods of time so there can be an advantage of having a smaller pool of players in that the same guys get a chance to build up a working relationship and much more consistency than some of the nations with a bigger pool of players and greater resources in general where tinkering can become a fatal flaw. Regardless come the end of the tournaments it is generally the established teams that are competing for the prize except on exceptional occasions but the togetherness of some of the smaller nations means that they can outperform their apparent standing.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/07/2016 14:36:47    1874689

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Replying To Naysayer:  "You will as get exceptions to the rule and perfect storms but I do not see continued success or status changes based on mentality alone and without other key ingredients. I actually think it is disingenuous to suggest that teams just need to get their heads right and they will be onto a winner. I wish I was that simple but sadly there is a lot more to it than that.

In terms of international football I think where the like of Iceland are succeeding and England failing is in the ability/inability to play to their strengths. For me international football is a funny thing because players only come together for short periods of time so there can be an advantage of having a smaller pool of players in that the same guys get a chance to build up a working relationship and much more consistency than some of the nations with a bigger pool of players and greater resources in general where tinkering can become a fatal flaw. Regardless come the end of the tournaments it is generally the established teams that are competing for the prize except on exceptional occasions but the togetherness of some of the smaller nations means that they can outperform their apparent standing."
No I am not suggesting it is down to mentality alone but it is vital whereas it is often put down the pecking order and the reason why so many teams are bet before they take the field. I would also suggest that it is equally disingenuous to suggest that these teams only succeeded because bigger outfits under performed.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 01/07/2016 14:51:08    1874696

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Replying To Naysayer:  "You will as get exceptions to the rule and perfect storms but I do not see continued success or status changes based on mentality alone and without other key ingredients. I actually think it is disingenuous to suggest that teams just need to get their heads right and they will be onto a winner. I wish I was that simple but sadly there is a lot more to it than that.

In terms of international football I think where the like of Iceland are succeeding and England failing is in the ability/inability to play to their strengths. For me international football is a funny thing because players only come together for short periods of time so there can be an advantage of having a smaller pool of players in that the same guys get a chance to build up a working relationship and much more consistency than some of the nations with a bigger pool of players and greater resources in general where tinkering can become a fatal flaw. Regardless come the end of the tournaments it is generally the established teams that are competing for the prize except on exceptional occasions but the togetherness of some of the smaller nations means that they can outperform their apparent standing."
I don't think the OPs suggestion was necessarily that if teams get their heads right they will automatically win all Irelands, rather that at any level of sport, from senior inter county to junior b, that the teams that are better focused and prepared mentally are generally the one's that succeed. I know that other factors such as player pool, population and finance all have a bearing on it, but at the end of the day the best prepared teams, mentally are usually the ones to win out.
Take Dublin for example, they had the same advantages in 08,09 and 10 that they enjoy now, but in 2 of those 3 years we got absolutely destroyed by Tyrone and Kerry, teams that were renowned for their 'winning mentality'.

AHP (Dublin) - Posts: 323 - 01/07/2016 15:02:50    1874706

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Replying To Dubh_linn:  "No I am not suggesting it is down to mentality alone but it is vital whereas it is often put down the pecking order and the reason why so many teams are bet before they take the field. I would also suggest that it is equally disingenuous to suggest that these teams only succeeded because bigger outfits under performed."
I did not say that. Yes where I would agree with you is that I would preach to players the importance of mentality for winning games and often would say half the game is mental but with a perfect mentality you will still come up short if you have not got ability to compliment it and no amount of mind coaching will have county teams challenging unless the groundwork is done in other areas and the pool of talent is sufficient.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/07/2016 15:04:46    1874710

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