Htaem
County: Meath
Posts: 6581

1757450
Look there's pros and cons to the current system, the major pro is that the provincials provide a lot of local derbies and hence reasonably big crowds, a new system couldn't guarantee the same crowds or better.

The major con is that the provinces are imbalanced both in terms of numbers and quality, so yes undeniably they are unfair, it's just a question if whether or not we're happy to continue with such a system.

That's it in a nutshell , Htaem.

I think it's only fair that a provincial winner should go in to a Qtr-Final (even though some have to play more games that others)
However as someone pointed out on here and I think it was a good call , perhaps the Provincial loser of Connacht and Munster should enter the qualifiers at a less advantaged stage than the ulster and Leinster losers.
I am not sure how the logistics of that would work out but it would probably mean both Munster and Connacht running off their championships a bit quicker than they presently do.
I mean it's laughable that the Connacht championship runs from 3rd May to 19th July. that's 11 weeks for 6 games . (crazy stuff)
the munster championship ran from 23rd May to 18th July (8 weeks for 5 games.. discounting the replay).
these could be run off quicker so that provincial losers could play in round 3 of the qualifiers.

you shouldn't have a case where one team arrives in the last 12 having played only 2 games.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 22/07/2015 14:29:55    1757564

Soma - sadly your out of touch of what is happening over here . Ulster might not possess the best team ; in fact it probably does hold the best two teams but as a whole it is the strongest as proved by the national league . Picking out Galway who won a couple of matches is rather vague . I could equally pick out Fermanagh who have never won an Ulster title beating this up and coming powerhouse Roscommon ( many peoples fancy for Connaught ) . Equally I could pick out Tyrone hammering this up and coming Tipperary side . One Connaught county has won Sam since 51 , two Munster sides have won it . We have 8/9 Ulster sides in the top two divisions so if that's not enough , sadly there's no taking to you . I hope that Donegal person that wronged you in another life apologises . The thread is based on the unevenness of the football championship , every expert , player and pundit acknowledges this . It's not fairer on weaker teams either . There needs to be a compete overhaul .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 22/07/2015 15:12:38    1757591

I think in 2005 it took tyrone 10 games to win the All-Ireland I don't think a team has had to play as many matches to win an All-Ireland.
Down
Cavan (draw)
Cavan (replay)
Armagh (Draw)
Armagh (Beat)
Monaghan Qualifiers
Dublin (draw)
Dublin (win)
Armagh
Kerry

What made that year sweet for us was playing armagh 3 times in croke park and winning the vital semi-final with Canavan scoring with the last kick of the ball. We also played two of the biggest teams in Ireland and its always good to get a win over Kerry to win an All-Ireland.

The derbys and crowd attendence is always the risk of a new system that is put in place. If we could drop Donegal into Connaught it would make it more competitive (and we'd get rid of them :P) as they are along that coast would bring Ulster to 8 teams. If somehow shuffle the provinces due to the locality of the counties so that they all have 8 teams therefore making the numbers evens but with the likes of Wexford or Carlow going into Munster just to make up for numbers wouldnt make it any more competitive for Cork or Kerry and it doesnt make Leinster any more competitive for the Dubs to win. Im not sure if I agree with New York being in the championship as they never win their first game but gives a team an excuse for a holiday.

Connaught Ulster Leinster Munster
Leitrim Tyrone Offaly Cork
Galway Armagh Longford Kerry
Mayo Cavan Wicklow Limerick
Donegal(U) Monaghan Laois Tipp
Sligo Derry Louth Waterford
Roscommon Antrim Meath Clare
London Fermanagh Dublin Wexford(L)
W'Meath (L) Down Kildare Carlow(L)

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 22/07/2015 15:25:54    1757603

well that didnt turn out the way it was meant to lol

Ulster - Derry, Antrim, Down, Tyrone, Armagh, Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan
Connaught - Donegal, W'Meath, Mayo, Galway, Leitrim, London, Roscommon, Sligo
Munster - Cork, Kerry, Clare, Waterford, Limerick, Tipp, Carlow, Wexford
Leinster - Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Louth, Laois, Wicklow, Offaly, Longford

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 22/07/2015 15:38:28    1757613

2 bottom ranked Ulster teams from the previous years national league play off in the prem round of Ulster with the winners having a home Quarter final against the previous years Ulster champions. Other 6 teams into an open draw. This gives weakest counties a chance of winning a game and building momentium. Also allows the Ulster Champions a game against a lower league team to which if they win brings them into a semi final. It also results in them starting campaign in June. The Ulster Championship is the best product in the country... it is improving all counties which is showing in how many have won an All Ireland. It should be protected in my opinion.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 22/07/2015 15:42:51    1757622

Galway have had a similar and longer route than Donegal to the present point in the campaign is what i believe SOMA is trying to say something i would agree with. There's nothing better than games for a team. If a team can't deliver in 8 games between May and September then the fault is there own not in any perceived inequalities that exist in a provincial system. Fermanagh beat Antrim and Roscommon to get to this point. Sligo beat Roscommon, i don't necessarily see how people can be so adamant Sligo don't deserve there place at this point.

elvistheking (Galway) - Posts: 99 - 22/07/2015 15:45:33    1757623

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-claiming-the-bulk-of-gaa-s-development-funds-1.2091641

Dublin received €1.46m in 2013 for development. I think this is well know to everyone at this stage and I don't want this to turn into a Dub bashing fest but instead of providing the strongest county with the most money (the €1.46m was more than all the other 31 counties received put together) give it to the weakest county and start something similar to the draft in NFL.

Instead of the draft being the weakest team gets the best player in this case the weakest team gets the most money, for example.

1) Dublin - €50,000
2) Kerry - €60,000
3) Donegal - €70,000
-
-
-
-
-
31)Leitrim - €800,000
32)Wicklow - €850,000 (Bear in mind I made all of these figures up)

Introduce regulations and rulings on how these counties must spend the money i.e. Coaching, development grounds, pitch upgrades etc.

Soon enough after sitting at the bottom of that pile for so long I'd imagine you'd start to see the bottom teams begin to move up.

Uncle_Fester (Meath) - Posts: 217 - 22/07/2015 15:55:42    1757632

Cause they are a Div 3 team that has had to win one game whereas Donegal played 4 tough games against 2 Relegated Div 1 teams, Promoted Div 3 team and a Div 1 team. Yes its not Ulsters nor anyone elses fault that Ulster is the most competitive Province saying that all but 1 team (Antrim) are in the top 2 Divisions next year.

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 22/07/2015 15:57:53    1757637

Fester say there is 9.5M every year divide that by 33 (inc. London/England) why not just give everyone 287,878...Euro each? make it a level playing field.

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 22/07/2015 16:05:26    1757642

elvistheking
County: Galway
Posts: 58

1757623
Galway have had a similar and longer route than Donegal to the present point in the campaign is what i believe SOMA is trying to say something i would agree with. There's nothing better than games for a team. If a team can't deliver in 8 games between May and September then the fault is there own not in any perceived inequalities that exist in a provincial system. Fermanagh beat Antrim and Roscommon to get to this point. Sligo beat Roscommon, i don't necessarily see how people can be so adamant Sligo don't deserve there place at this point.

And so they should have a longer route they were beat in the semi-final of Connaught, Donegal were beat in the Ulster Final. The point is Cork and Sligo won 1 game to get the last 12, while Donegal had to win 3, Westmeath the same. Whatever system is used in future all teams going through the front door should have to win the same amount of games to get to AI series.

donegalhills (Donegal) - Posts: 17 - 22/07/2015 16:07:26    1757643

The only way to even it up is to replace the 4 provinces with 4 regions, North, South, East and West. That way everybody plays the same amount of matches, we still get to keep the local derbies and regional finals to replace the provincial finals.

bubba83 (Dublin) - Posts: 333 - 22/07/2015 16:22:43    1757657

find_the_space that is another option yes, but I think right now the gap between the top teams and bottom teams is so big that it can't be treated as a level playing field.

Personally I don't think there's much wrong with the provincial system it's how it's being managed is my problem. If this funding was introduced and 10/15 years from now all the provincials were as competitive as Ulster, then you could start looking at equal funding.

Compare the championship to English soccer, on their day the lowest ranked team in the PL e.g. QPR. They could beat Chelsea on their day, it's a good possibility! Now put that to the championship, there's no way in hell Leitrim/Wicklow would ever beat Dublin/Kerry.

Uncle_Fester (Meath) - Posts: 217 - 22/07/2015 16:26:36    1757660

That is one solution bubba but it means getting rid of 100 years of tradition for very little benefit. Kerry will still win Munster more often than not, and will frequently win the All-Ireland, and then you will have counties crying because Kerry have it easier in their province than other teams. Remember when the back door was brought in it was said it would be of most help to Leinster and Ulster counties who would get a second chance to win Sam and what has happened?-Cork and Kerry have won Sam through the backdoor as often as all teams from the other 3 provinces combined! Nobody says the reason Crossmaglen have won so many All-Ireland club titles is because they have no real opposition in Armagh - they just appreciate them for the great club they are and see them as worthy champions.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2015 16:41:34    1757669

s goldrick

you shouldn't have a case where one team arrives in the last 12 having played only 2 games.

Well that's it, it's a nonsensical situation and the Gaa need to sort it out, preferably with an open mind and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/07/2015 17:01:15    1757680

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 1080

1757669 That is one solution bubba but it means getting rid of 100 years of tradition for very little benefit. Kerry will still win Munster more often than not, and will frequently win the All-Ireland, and then you will have counties crying because Kerry have it easier in their province than other teams. Remember when the back door was brought in it was said it would be of most help to Leinster and Ulster counties who would get a second chance to win Sam and what has happened?-Cork and Kerry have won Sam through the backdoor as often as all teams from the other 3 provinces combined! Nobody says the reason Crossmaglen have won so many All-Ireland club titles is because they have no real opposition in Armagh - they just appreciate them for the great club they are and see them as worthy champions.

It has been said on here many times so save the empty praise, nobody is fooled by it.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12121 - 22/07/2015 17:01:40    1757683

Would love to see a NFL style combined league and championship split into conferences and regions.

CFC (coastal Football Conference)
Northern Division
Donegal
Mayo
Down
Derry

Southern Division
Kerry
Cork
Dublin
Galway

Mid West Division
Sligo
Leitrim
Clare
Limerick

South East Division
Waterford
Wexford
Wicklow
Louth

MFC (Midlands Football Conference)
Southern Division
Tipperary
Offaly
Laois
Westmeath

Northern Division
Tyrone
Armagh
Meath
Kildare

Lakeside Division
Fermanagh
Monaghan
Cavan
Roscommon

Wildcard Division
Antrim
London
Carlow
Longford

Two Conferences separated until All Ireland Final
Each County plays twice against teams in their own division and once against every other team in their conference (14 games)
Top team in each division and next 5 best teams progress to conference q finals - 3 games to produce conference winners
Two conference winners play off for SAM.
Total games = 18

Every county can realistically win a divisional title yet all play in the same competition. Every county gets 7 home and 7 away games (even Dublin). Whats not to like?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 22/07/2015 18:18:05    1757702

We need to split the AI series into a two-tiered competition, but the important part is to make the second-tier competition just as important for the weaker counties to win. There has to be incentive, and they have to be given top billing in the calender along with the main competition. National League performance has to be factored in to your seeding for the main championship, and also dictates which tier you play in. The provincials are run as a standalone competition, with the winners put straight into tier 1. Take this year as an example:

Sam Maguire Round of 16:

1. Cork
2. Dublin
3. Monaghan
4. Donegal
5. Mayo
6. Kerry
7. Down
8. Roscommon
9. Tyrone
10. Derry
11. Meath
12. Galway
13. Leinster (Dublin already seeded - Cavan best placed NFL team)
14. Ulster (Monaghan already seeded - Laois best placed NFL team)
15. Connacht (Mayo already seeded - Fermanagh best placed NFL team)
16. Munster (Kerry already seeded - Armagh best placed NFL team)

Armagh v Cork
Fermanagh v Dublin
Laois v Monaghan
Cavan v Donegal
Galway v Mayo
Meath v Kerry
Derry v Down
Tyrone v Roscommon

Joe Soap Round of 16:

1. Westmeath
2. Kildare
3. Tipperary
4. Sligo
5. Clare
6. Limerick
7. Longford
8. Offaly
9. Louth
10. Wexford
11. Antrim
12. Leitrim
13. Carlow
14. Waterford
15. Wicklow
16. London

London v Westmeath
Wicklow v Kildare
Waterford v Tipperary
Carlow v Sligo
Leitrim v Clare
Antrim v Limerick
Wexford v Longford
Louth v Offaly

The key with this format is the Joe Soap championship games get played as double headers with the Sam Maguire series from the 1/4 finals onwards. I think the initial round of 16 games, home advantage should be given to the "weaker" county, and then all roads lead to Croke Park. If you win the Joe Soap Championship, you're automatically in to the Sam Maguire the following year regardless. The third Sunday in September you could have 2 finals potentially Kerry v Dublin and Kildare v Sligo. League positioning giving importance to your Championship standing gives extra interest to the league, and you still have the provincials playing a role for all the traditionalists.

Potentially you could run off a lot of club games from those who get knocked out of their provincials early, for example Tyrone this year - as they wait for the AI series to start, why not run off their club championship?

Done and dusted.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 22/07/2015 20:51:36    1757770

For anyone interested I played out the 2 Championships with who I thought would win out each round, and ended up with an All-Ireland final day of:

Mayo v Dublin
Sligo v Tipperary

Wouldn't that be a great day out!

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 22/07/2015 21:09:39    1757781

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 1080

1757669
That is one solution bubba but it means getting rid of 100 years of tradition for very little benefit. Kerry will still win Munster more often than not, and will frequently win the All-Ireland, and then you will have counties crying because Kerry have it easier in their province than other teams.

Which is more important, tradition or a fair and balanced championship? The first step is to make sure at least everyone is required to play the same amount of games to win an All Ireland title? I don't think it's such a massive step to take to replace a provincial final with a regional final? Each region could still be administered by the sitting provincial councils.

I get the point about some regions being more competitive than others. I think a seeding based on league placing could help with deciding which counties are rotated around the regions.

bubba83 (Dublin) - Posts: 333 - 23/07/2015 08:41:11    1757812

What is strange is Cork after long periods of no games to play now have a one week turnaround . Its ridiculous. Very hard for teams to back it up.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 23/07/2015 17:08:16    1758135