Soma

Are you involved in administration in the GAA? How you can call the qualifier system an open draw is beyond me.

Kerry/Cork guaranteed to enter the qualifier draw in round 2 without playing a game. Tyrone could beat the All Ireland Finalists and would still enter the qualifier draw at round 1 if lose the next match. Quite fair indeed.

And as last year the toughest Ulster teams will mostly have to play each other again in the Qualifiers. If by fair you mean rigged to high heavens then I agree.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 06/05/2015 19:28:21    1721000

KY4SAM2015
County: Kerry
Posts: 37


Even though we are still in a period of transition i still feel we are in the top two. However refs and the media will be against us this year so two in a row will be tough for this young team. Munster is now the toughest province with the combination of kerry, Cork and Tipp the three best teams in any province. If we make it out of our tough munster side of the draw then we are in with a shout.

KY

There is an art to getting a rise out of fellas & I'm afraid you are trying way too hard.

A bit of subtlety would go a long way.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 06/05/2015 19:41:35    1721003

No tyroneed, just paying attention to what happens. In the 4 qualifier rounds last year there was 1 all-ulster tie. The Ulster teams in the qualifiers were knocked out by Limerick, Laois, Longford, Kildare and Roscommon. The Munster draw is seeded which means that at the moment Kerry and Cork can only enter in Rd 2 at the earliest (Kerry have won an All-Ireland from entering at this stage before), but that is due to how Munster run their competition.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 06/05/2015 20:29:09    1721013

Munster run their province how they wish. Ulster could seed their draw if they wanted to. No point crying that theirs is seeded and ours isn't.
Ulster are free to arrange their fixtures however they want (their was even talk of a round robin competition last year). Ulster teams don't want to move province either so no point harping on about it. Leinster seed their draw so semi finalists from one year bypass the preliminary round the following year, can't ulster do the same?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 07/05/2015 11:04:27    1721109

The Championship is completely unbalanced from number of games teams have to play to difficulty of path depending what province you are from. Some form of open draw whether it be groups or straight knock out would be the fairest way to go - that way there are no excuses.

As an aside how come it is good enough to weight the strength of provinces for the hurling but not the football?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 07/05/2015 14:01:07    1721226

Prenty calls for championship overhaul: http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=236885

Yeah, it's easy complain. No motions are being brought to congress. The provincials could be run separate to the All-Ireland Championship. Run the league as a league, scrapping the semi-finals and finals. Then run the provincials off as fast as they run the Christy Ring Cup. Using the Christy Ring type format, run the All-Ireland Championship then as follows:

Round 1: All 32 teams (Round of 16 teams seeded from the previous year).
Round 2A: 16 Round 1 winners. Round 2B: 16 Round 1 losers.
Round 3: 8 Round 2A losers v 8 Round 2B winners
Round of 16: 8 Round 2A winners v 8 Round 3 winners
All- Ireland Quarter-finals
All- Ireland Semi-finals
All- Ireland Final

All teams can win 6 games to claim the All-Ireland or they can all lose a Round 1 or 2A match and play 7 games to claim the All-Ireland. Round 2A winners should be given a home tie for the Round of 16. All Round of 16 teams should be seeded for the following year with a separate draw for home tie.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 08/05/2015 16:28:55    1721598

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 975

1720993 Gary
There is a clear Imbalance in the Championship format, especially when it comes to challenging for the All Ireland series via the Qualifiers
Some good discussion here but I'm confused by what you mean here Gary. How is the qualifier system unbalanced do you feel? It's largely an open draw so seems quite fair. Last year 3 division 1 teams entered Rd 1 of the qualifiers with 2 of them losing to division 3 sides which shows that using the league alone to judge the strength of each side can be misleading.

1. The 6/7 day turnaround is a massive problem for anybody with serious All Ireland ambitions, as very few manage to overcome it at All Ireland QF stage.

2. It is not an open draw, the Qualifier draw is divided into sides A and B. Which means all teams that exit side A of their respective Provincial Championships, enter side A of the Qualifiers. Meaning there is a real possibility of repeat fixtures between sides from the same Province.

I think there were a lot of different variables last season, which upset the normal order of things in terms of league standings and Qualifier knockouts. We had some emerging footballing powers rising through the ranks, and the odd fluke result too. Hardly worth reading too much into that one season, as sample of data across 4 or 5 seasons would be more accurate.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/05/2015 19:50:46    1721657

I think you are incorrect on a couple of things there Gary. The 6/7 day turnaround shouldn't be an issue anymore as the A & B side of the qualifiers was brought in to ensure teams get a 2 week break, and 2 rounds of the qualifier draws state that repeat pairings are to be avoided where possible so again that should largely solve that problem. Last year was the first with the new system and it seemed to work well.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 08/05/2015 20:36:32    1721675

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 976

1721675 I think you are incorrect on a couple of things there Gary. The 6/7 day turnaround shouldn't be an issue anymore as the A & B side of the qualifiers was brought in to ensure teams get a 2 week break, and 2 rounds of the qualifier draws state that repeat pairings are to be avoided where possible so again that should largely solve that problem. Last year was the first with the new system and it seemed to work well.

I'm not sure if I am Incorrect on a couple of things, possibly one thing.

I remember there being 3 weeks between the Provincial final and the All Ireland QF last season, and Round 4 of the Qualifier was played somewhere in there. So that definitely suggests a 7 day turnaround still exists for those coming through the losing a Provincial final and reaching an All Ireland QF via the backdoor.

I reviewed the Qualifier Information last season after the changes, but wasn't aware that teams who met in the provincial Championships could not meet in the Qualifiers. I didn't see that, Is that definitely a rule now?

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/05/2015 21:32:26    1721685

I misunderstood Gary, I thought you were referring to the previous problem of teams having to play qualifier games 6 days after being defeated in their province. This no longer happens but teams do have to play quarter finals 7 days after winning in Rd 4, I don't think there is anything that can be done about that as otherwise provincial winners would be without a game for too long a period. With the level of physical preparation I don't think teams should struggle with playing a game 7 days after winning their Rd 4 game anyway.
And yes the no repeat pairings wherever possible is stated in the rulebook for Rds 3 & 4.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 09/05/2015 09:33:23    1721696

Provincial runners-up are guaranteed at least a 13 day gap to qualifier round 4. If the provincial final is a replay, it's just the bad luck of the draw.
The 7 day gap from qualifier round 4 to a quarter-final is a disadvantage of sorts. It's one more reason to win one's province in the first place. The Kerry hurlers were able to deal with such a turn around when they beat Antrim to rise to 1B hurling and bring the county up to a dual county standard.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 09/05/2015 12:24:28    1721721

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 977

1721696 I misunderstood Gary, I thought you were referring to the previous problem of teams having to play qualifier games 6 days after being defeated in their province. This no longer happens but teams do have to play quarter finals 7 days after winning in Rd 4, I don't think there is anything that can be done about that as otherwise provincial winners would be without a game for too long a period. With the level of physical preparation I don't think teams should struggle with playing a game 7 days after winning their Rd 4 game anyway.
And yes the no repeat pairings wherever possible is stated in the rulebook for Rds 3 & 4.

That 7 day turnaround is definitely a big ask, especially if you have a team like Dublin or other big guns waiting for you in the All Ireland QF.

I would be more concerned with Rounds 1 & 2, as Ulster teams have quite often ended up facing off in those early rounds of the Qualifiers, some after already facing each other in Preliminary round of Ulster ( Down & Derry 2013 ).
I would seek to keep split these sides who played in the same side of a Provincial Championship, into separate sides of the Qualifiers. It would give a bit more balance to the whole thing.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 09/05/2015 13:17:38    1721735

I disagree Gary. Going back to 2009 when Kerry won the All-Ireland through the back door from Rd 2, they played Rd 3 seven days after Rd 2, and the quarter final 7 days after Rd 4. In that quarter final they beat Dublin for good measure as well. Beating Dublin and winning All-Irelands is a big ask anyway, unless you want provincial champions going 6 weeks without a game then the 7 day turnaround has to be kept.
I think statistically the chance of a repeat pairing in Rd 1 of the qualifiers is about 1/16, and even less likely in Rd 2 so I don't see it as a big issue. Nonetheless, Id like to see a motion before congress for repeat pairings to be avoided in these rounds as well if possible. Splitting teams on the same side at provincial level into separate sides of the qualifiers would cause all sorts of problems with fixture making, I think the new A & B system works really well.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 09/05/2015 14:37:53    1721745

KY

There is an art to getting a rise out of fellas & I'm afraid you are trying way too hard.

A bit of subtlety would go a long way.

Muckrosshead
Tell me three better teams in any province better then the combination of Kerry, Cork and Tipp at present..
I believe they are the three strongest teams in any province..you don't agree??

KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts: 898 - 09/05/2015 15:27:36    1721759

KY nice trifecta but what about Mayo, Ros and Galway?

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 09/05/2015 15:53:21    1721763

yeah i agree Mayo, Rossies and Galway would be close alright..

KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts: 898 - 09/05/2015 17:08:43    1721790

One tweak largely neutralises the imbalance - all 32 counties retain 2 chances AFTER the Prov QFs.
Therefore, all 16 losers from Qual Rd 1 and Prov SFs go to Qual Rd 2 - with all 16 winners to Prov SFs and TMC QFs (or instead, latter 8 could have
bye to 20-team Qual Rd 3, incl 4 Prov Final losers).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 09/05/2015 17:17:01    1721797

There is a back door for all counties including Ulster, not sure what the purpose of this thread is

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 09/05/2015 17:44:58    1721807

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1773

I would be more concerned with Rounds 1 & 2, as Ulster teams have quite often ended up facing off in those early rounds of the Qualifiers, some after already facing each other in Preliminary round of Ulster ( Down & Derry 2013 ).
I would seek to keep split these sides who played in the same side of a Provincial Championship, into separate sides of the Qualifiers. It would give a bit more balance to the whole thing.

I've always thought it is tough on Ulster Division 1 teams that have been knocked out of Ulster by a fellow Division 1 team and then to be drawn against another Division 1 team in the qualifiers. If provincial championships want to use seeding or not, that is their own business. When it comes to the qualifiers, the GAA should use league placing to seed teams for the qualifier draws. It'll give an added ege for doing well in the league.

Connacht Council secretary John Prenty would like to see the provincial football championships divided into four eight-team competitions.

On Prenty's call, there is a compromise option:
All 4 provincial championships should remain as they are.
The Ulster prelimimary loser and a Leinster prelimimary loser should enter the Connaught qualifier section.
The two other Leinster preliminary round losers should enter the Munster qualifier section.

All-Ireland series qualification would work as follows:
All provincial champions qualify for the quarter-finals.

Each province would provide one qualifier for the quarter-finals as follows:
CONNAUGHT
Q1: 2 losing quarter-finalists, 1 Ulster preliminary loser and 1 Leinster preliminary round loser.
Q2: 2 losing semi-finalists and 2 Q1 winners.
Q3: 2 Q2 winners
Q4: Provincial runner-up and Q3 winner.

MUNSTER
Q1: 2 losing quarter-finalists and 2 Leinster preliminary round losers.
Q2: 2 losing semi-finalists and 2 Q1 winners.
Q3: 2 Q2 winners
Q4: Provincial runner-up and Q3 winner.

ULSTER
Q1: 4 losing quarter-finalists.
Q2: 2 losing semi-finalists and 2 Q1 winners.
Q3: 2 Q2 winners
Q4: Provincial runner-up and Q3 winner.

LEINSTER
Q1: 4 losing quarter-finalists.
Q2: 2 losing semi-finalists and 2 Q1 winners.
Q3: 2 Q2 winners
Q4: Provincial runner-up and Q3 winner.

Fairness in this is that 4 blocks of 8 are created. Provincial championships remain as they are. Preliminary round losers from Ulster and Leinster are only entering another provinces qualifier section.

There are of course plenty of options. It's a never ending debate. There are plenty of options even with in the current structures with a few minor tweaks that can bring more balance upon the championship.

@ tirawleybaron - regards the Tommy Murphy Cup suggestion in an earlier post of mine, I think 8 teams is enough for the Tommy Murphy Cup. If you look at the proposal, you've 8 teams in Ulster quarter-finals, 8 teams in Leinster quarter-finals and 8 teams in the Munster & Connaught semi-finals. Getting 5 teams from each of those three blocks of 8 and the Tommy Murphy Cup winner being the 16th team would tie in nicely within the current structures.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 09/05/2015 18:26:41    1721825

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 978

1721745 I disagree Gary. Going back to 2009 when Kerry won the All-Ireland through the back door from Rd 2, they played Rd 3 seven days after Rd 2, and the quarter final 7 days after Rd 4. In that quarter final they beat Dublin for good measure as well. Beating Dublin and winning All-Irelands is a big ask anyway, unless you want provincial champions going 6 weeks without a game then the 7 day turnaround has to be kept.
I think statistically the chance of a repeat pairing in Rd 1 of the qualifiers is about 1/16, and even less likely in Rd 2 so I don't see it as a big issue. Nonetheless, Id like to see a motion before congress for repeat pairings to be avoided in these rounds as well if possible. Splitting teams on the same side at provincial level into separate sides of the qualifiers would cause all sorts of problems with fixture making, I think the new A & B system works really well.

In fairness, Kerry were probably the exception to the rule in 2009. As back in 2009, outside of Cork taking them in Munster, Tyrone were the only other side realistically in with a chance of beating Kerry, especially in Croke Park.

I don't think there should be any problems with fixtures, not if all is well planned out in advance.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 09/05/2015 21:33:16    1721880