The groups mentioned might have one good game in each one.
Without a two tier structure your just removing the miss matches in the provincial system and having miss matches in the champions league type championship.

I would much rather watch Mayo v Sligo in the connaught championship than Mayo v Carlow for no trophy.

Shorten the league, play the provincials in a shorter time frame and have a 2 tiered world cup style All ireland championship with back door entry for the B championship winners into the A competition. Each competition sets the seeding for the next one.

Intensifies the league so every game counts (like the hurling league), championship draw is unknown until after leagues (keeps public interest), gives weaker teams a game before they play the big boys. Gives weaker counties two realistic trophies to play for (league group and B championship) and gives a significant reward and big game for winning the B championship. Top teams play each other more so we see less mismatches.

Any version of the all Ireland series that keeps div 3 and 4 teams playing against div 1 teams is pointless

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 01/05/2015 09:29:51    1719383

These threads come up every so often and we have the same old stuff coming out, champiions league, seeding etc. The biggest issue in the championship is the truncated calendar. Why cant games and provinces be run off in parallel I know TV stations wont like it but theres no reason not to have a round of games where everyone plays on the same day. This would free up enormous time for club games whilst also shortening the championship. You could have triple headers on a Sunday and it would bring some of the excitement back into the game.

Part of what is detracting from football is the endless over analysis and the calendar allows every piece of negativity and bile to fester over 5 months essentially. It could be run off in 2-3 with more games on any given weekend meaning more choice for the viewer and teams would no longer have the advantage of being able to scout the other teams for months before they play.

These lads are amateurs and playing for 2-3 monthws and allowing to train 1 months before the start would remove a lot of the demands on the IC players.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 01/05/2015 10:41:21    1719403

Any version of the all Ireland series that keeps div 3 and 4 teams playing against div 1 teams is pointless

But sure we see this year in year out as the current structure stands. Just look at this year:

Connacht:
QFs - a Div 2 team (Div 1 next season) against a Div 4 team

Leinster:
Qfs - a Div 1 team against one of two Div 4 teams.
Final - probably a Div 1 team against at best a Div 2 team (with 4 of the 5 potential finalists being Div 3 or 4 teams next season).

Munster:
Both semi finals - a Div 1 team against either a Div 3 or 4 team.

Ulster:
unlike the other 3 Provinces not the same gap in Divisions i.e.
Preliminary - Div 1 against Div 1
QFs - Div 3 (to be Div 2 next year) against Div 4
Div 1 against Div 2
Div 1 against Div 2
Div 1 against Div 3 (to be Div 2 next year)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 01/05/2015 11:15:26    1719414

AHP
County: Dublin
Posts: 48

You say a team should have to earn the right to play for Sam , easy for you to say your a Dub and no matter what way things are changed we will allways be there .
There are those who hide behind the word progression , and catch phrases like moving with the times , but really they don't give a tossabout smaller counties , don't care about tradition , or have any values when it comes to the game .
Ive met a younger generation in Dublin that would love a champions league format , with top team only please , and if you could schedule it after The Premier finshes that would be great .
Not allways a fan but thank god for some of the dinosaurs in HQ

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 01/05/2015 11:40:18    1719426

In last year's championship 2 of the teams in division 1 were beaten by sides who had just been relegated to division 3, and another by a team who were relegated to division 4. Add in Tipp, a division 4 team, who lost to Cork by 2 points, and division 4 Clare who lost to Kerry by 4,and you can see that this gulf in class between most sides is often exaggerated. The most one-sided game in Munster last year was between two division 1 teams.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 01/05/2015 12:04:03    1719440

Damothedub

The current mismathes keep the weaker counties down. They struggle to keep their best footballers interested because as soon as they lose in the provincial championship they know they wont win the All Ireland and have little of no chance of making the quarterfinal through the back door. Would you train for 8 months and stay of the beer and train 5 days a week for 2 or 3 championship matches (or less if you are a squad player)?

Playing a B competition with back door entry to the main championship gives weaker counties a competition to aim for and the winner will have a battle-hardened team ready for the all ireland quarters.

I think this should be tried at minor and U21 as a minimum to give more matches to weaker counties to help them develop players as their club football is not as strong as the bigger counties.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 01/05/2015 12:14:20    1719446

Couple of points as I see it:
1. Not a snowballs chance of provincials being done away with anytime soon
2. Overall calender is the main problem
3. Everyone should be allowed to play for SAM if they want to. It'll mean some trashings every year, but any system that includes all teams will give you that.

Naysayers idea has merit, but it'll not happen in that format anytime soon.
Assuming that the provincials are going to stay:
1. You need is 8 teams in each province, so someone is going to have to move house.
2. 8 teams per province gives 2 groups of 4 in each, places decided on league rankings e.g Connaught: Mayo #1 in Grp 1, Ros #1 in Grp 2, Galway #2 in Grp 1, etc. etc.
3. Grp winners play provincial final
4. Both teams go through to AI series QF's.
5. Scrap league Semis and finals, and play the whole AI series in less than 3mths.

Any sort of a league or backdoor system as we currently have favours the stronger counties. Only other alternative is 8 teams per province and play a knockout format. That would take about 1 - 1.5 mths less than any Grp/League system.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 01/05/2015 12:30:06    1719458

tirawleybaron
County: Mayo
Posts: 344

1719446 Damothedub

The current mismathes keep the weaker counties down. They struggle to keep their best footballers interested because as soon as they lose in the provincial championship they know they wont win the All Ireland and have little of no chance of making the quarterfinal through the back door. Would you train for 8 months and stay of the beer and train 5 days a week for 2 or 3 championship matches (or less if you are a squad player)?

Playing a B competition with back door entry to the main championship gives weaker counties a competition to aim for and the winner will have a battle-hardened team ready for the all ireland quarters.

I think this should be tried at minor and U21 as a minimum to give more matches to weaker counties to help them develop players as their club football is not as strong as the bigger counties.


Take a look at hurling , lesser counties are second class citizens and told its in their best interests , dangerous times when the sharks tell the little fish not to worry .
At the moment while there is a divide at least the lesser counties get to play and dream of a big scalp , but we will take that away from those dreamers to give them silver medals.

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 01/05/2015 13:45:57    1719478

I do think 1 team from each division in a group has merit, because all sides would have expectations or a least a chance of making the last 16.

Div1 side would expect to get there, by winning all games.
Div2 side would expect to beat div3 and div4, and have a chance to scalp the div1 team to avoid another div1 team in the last 16.
Div3 side would expect to beat div4 and possibly beat one of the other two to finish second.
Div4 side would have a tough campaign, but don't they always? Beat divsion 3 side and have crack at the division 2 side, could mean last 16.

m_the_d (None) - Posts: 1099 - 01/05/2015 14:07:03    1719481

There is no logic when it comes to a group stage. Imagine a scenario in which the four teams in a group are Dublin, Armagh, Louth and Carlow. You could end up with a scenario that both Louth and Carlow would be pointless going into their final game, and therefore the match between the two counties would have no meaning. No one would go to games like that, and it would undermine the championship. I think there should be a two tier championship, which would increase competitiveness among the bigger teams, and give counties like my own, the aim to get to that level.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1653 - 01/05/2015 14:38:15    1719499

PK57
County: Louth
Posts: 1315

1719499 There is no logic when it comes to a group stage. Imagine a scenario in which the four teams in a group are Dublin, Armagh, Louth and Carlow. You could end up with a scenario that both Louth and Carlow would be pointless going into their final game, and therefore the match between the two counties would have no meaning. No one would go to games like that, and it would undermine the championship. I think there should be a two tier championship, which would increase competitiveness among the bigger teams, and give counties like my own, the aim to get to that level.


The system I proposed, would mean only the Top 4 sides from each province enter The All Ireland series. That would mean 16 teams playing for the All Ireland Championship, and the other's could contest an All Ireland Intermediate style Championship. There could possibly be a Junior All Ireland Championship for teams who drop at Intermediate level.

We don't want to see counties ending up constantly defeated and demoralised, and the league seeding should ensure the chances of this happening are restricted. But those counties should also have something to play for, and something for their fans to get behind.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 01/05/2015 15:05:04    1719511

At the moment while there is a divide at least the lesser counties get to play and dream of a big scalp

So all that time, dedication, commitment is rewarded with the chance of living the dream which is beating one of the big boys!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 01/05/2015 15:28:01    1719525

There is no logic when it comes to a group stage. Imagine a scenario in which the four teams in a group are Dublin, Armagh, Louth and Carlow. You could end up with a scenario that both Louth and Carlow would be pointless going into their final game, and therefore the match between the two counties would have no meaning. No one would go to games like that, and it would undermine the championship. I think there should be a two tier championship, which would increase competitiveness among the bigger teams, and give counties like my own, the aim to get to that level.

Very good point - how about 3rd place in each of 8 groups get to compete for the Tommy Murphy - essentially your Louth Carlow game is a preliminary for the Tommy Murphy - Problem solved?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/05/2015 15:44:06    1719529

Checkmate as far as i can see. For the following reasons.

The only truly fair way for a resolution of this is to average out each province to 8 counties. That would also have to include a balance of division 1 to division 4 equally across the provinces. This would also have to involve the removal of new york from the championship. There would also have to be a situation where 4 teams from leinster, and 1 from ulster would have to be spread over connaught and munster. Who goes where? There would be turmoil in ulster if a county had to go to connaught. leinster likewise would be a problem for many (not me btw, I would love to see how donegal would fair against meath or kildare away from home, or indeed dublin in croke park. The converse likewise, how they would fair in ballybofey. Finally, the gates would suffer if certain counties were forced to travel to connaught, due to vast distances more than anything else.

There is a lot of trouble managing this as you can see.

The alternative is what? if the ulster council were to vote to introduce seeding, the last remaining true provincial structure would be damaged, and the possibility of a shock result or 2 which happens every year in ulster would no longer happen.

There is no way around this, unless a team can stay injury free on a long road, or that the likes of roscommon or tipp can manage to mount a serious challenge in the next few years. Since 1992 this has not happened in munster. So it really is up to the smaller counties to up their game.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 01/05/2015 15:59:18    1719536

Keep the provincial championships the way they are but the following changes,
2 Ulster finalists qualify for the quarter finals,
2 Leinster finalists qualify for quarter final,
Munster and Connacht champions only qualify for quarter final,
2 teams from backdoor qualify for quarter final,
draw for quarter final four provincial finalists on one side, 2 losing finalists and 2 backdoor teams in other jar.

giveballaghback (Roscommon) - Posts: 296 - 01/05/2015 16:19:32    1719543

3 league divisions with semi's and finals in each

Top division winner is the All-Ireland champion

relegation/promotion etc

Provincial Championships run throughout the leagues like the FA Cup in England

Defined season at the right time of the year - players are guaranteed matches in the core competition.

Club competitions can plan - players can plan, no more half efforts of a competition.

This works cause its successfully replicated in many sports, in many countries across the world.

What we have at the moment is a disgraceful representation of the GAA's best efforts

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 01/05/2015 17:50:39    1719572

The championship has 32 counties, excluding New York who do not enter the qualifiers. Having half the number of counties from each province in the last 16 would be fair.
In the current setup, if the qualifier draws seeded teams based on league placing it would help even out unfairness. Tyrone can lament they are taking on Donegal in a preliminary round in Ulster. If they are then being seeded to take on the loser of Limerick and Waterford, it addresses that imbalance and brings fairness back into the championship. All qualifier rounds seeing new teams drop in from the provincial championships should be seeded. As Q3 has Q2 winners only, no seeding should be in place for that round. Again for Q4, I don't necessarily agree with seeding losing finalists. Again I'd go along with seeding the draw based on league placing.
As always, it's a never ending the debate.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7856 - 01/05/2015 20:11:37    1719590

Geezer is right it is unbalanced. Could you imagine Armagh having to fly 9000 km round trip to play NY?

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 01/05/2015 21:48:31    1719609

Biggest problem with group matches is mismatches, even seeding teams in groups only makes the bigger teams win the groups and qualify just like the champions league. Best solution is all 33 teams into an open draw, have 1 playoff game involving 2 teams, winners enter the 1st round the losers into the qualifier a B Champ, 16 matches with winners into last 16 draw (A champ), losers into qualifiers (B champ) the A champ runs as far as the last 4 where they play the semi final the 2 winners reach the AllIreland semi final proper in Croke Park, the 2 losing semi finalists play each other with the winner playing the B champions in the 2nd AllIreland semi final. The B champ also an open draw with a playoff to reduce the draw from 17 teams to 16 then from 16 to 8 to 4 to 2, the B final, with the winners entering the AllIreland semi proper. Basically you get 2 chances of winning Sam, if you lose twice you are out, what can happen is big teams end up in B champ then only 1 will make to Croke Park for the AllIreland semis and not like the current 4 qualifiers at the quarterfinal stage at the moment. It was the system operated in north Mayo championship years ago before the County Board came up with a great idea of having group draws which favours the stronger clubs only

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 02/05/2015 13:57:36    1719651

A lot of good ideas here. My idea at the beginning incorporates many of better points -
1) Front Door extenddd by one round with top quality match ups
2) Side Door gives the weaker counties, with a spillover of Ulster QF losers, a fair shot at the TMC.
3) Back Door with a mouthwatering 3rd Rd Open Draw.
4) Reducing the 24-team Prov QFs to simply an allocation exercise to asign 12 to Font Door and 12 to TMC,
puts everyone on an equal footing with all 32 teams getting a 'last chance' (2nd from Front Door, albeit 3rd chance
from Side Door) for at least the next two rounds.
5) Mismatches ard reduced - although I concede they mostly might occur in Prov QFs and Qual Rd 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 02/05/2015 16:02:33    1719670