25/03/2015 08:30:52
daytona11
The GAA is all inclusive to be fair. Unionists would be welcome in any club in the North if they weren't there to cause trouble. The way some people here are talking about rugby they seem to think rugby clubs are not open to all which is false.
25/03/2015 09:20:40 hurlinspuds
Ormond, my original point was that Dublin Schools rugby was elitist and I said it on the basis that it seems to be only for fee paying private schools full of D4 kids. I don't know much about this Leinster franchise except that I learned from you and Daytona that almost all the Irish guys who work for it are the aforementioned rich kids which would also make me think that the franchise is full of elites. I accept that the IRFU is doing work in areas that are not their traditional area like Tallaght, fair play. Thanks for making Daytona's point clear to me. I do wonder about all of your points when you got that one so spectacularly wrong.
Do you really want me to define a disadvantaged area?? Or what high unemployment is?? Maybe I'm speaking to a 14 year old and you don't read the paper or something but surely you know what these things are and how they are generally identified??Schoosl rugby isn't elitist. No school is stopped from playing but schools enter competitions at different tiers. The appropriate level and the top level happens to have a lot of schools that are fee paying as they are the strongest.
Leinster Rugby isn't a franchise. How is it a franchise?
Yeah for the discussion what is a disadvantaged area? What in your eyes defines an area as disadvantaged?

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the word "elitist". I would think that a competition that is only for fee paying private schools from wealthy neighbourhoods would be elitist, am I wrong?

Anyways, Bad.Monkey has said "west brit" now so this thread will probably shut down soon. I don't think anyone was saying that the GAA in the 6 counties was successful at getting unionists to participate so I don't really know where his argument came from. Equally, I wonder how good Ulster rugby is at getting nationalists to play, I asked about that earlier. Typically though, we'll only concentrate on our own failings rather than contemplate that the other side might also have some questions to answer.

Anyways, I don't think Ormond is actually going to admit that Dublin schools rugby is elitist so there is little point to carrying on without just going around in circles. I don't think Ormond does rugby as a sport any favours by being so obstinate. I'm sure lots of decent rugby people would admit the problem and explain how they're working to change it but no, to Ormond rugby is perfect and anyone with a criticism is just a rugby-hating idiot.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 25/03/2015 21:24:17    1706627

25/03/2015 09:36:20 galwayford
We need to see more GAA clubs being set up. Estates are expanding all the time. Yet the number of GAA clubs has been static. Like I said one GAA club Clondalkin Round Towers in Dublin 22. Which is a massive area. Yet there are at least 15 Junior soccer clubs if not more. Nearly every estate here has a Soccer club. There is one rugby club- but I think it is in Tallaght. That is miles away from Clondalkin, so it does'nt count imo.
I think going forward heres a plan:
1. GAA needs to set up clubs in new towns like Adamstown/Lucan,
2. GAA should encourage Irish language and culture. Round Towers club have just appointed Irish language officer for example
3. Clubs should become hubs for irish dancing/music etc.
4. Plenty of charity work for local causes. Where is there a need for more GAA clubs? There is more soccer clubs as any group of lads can have a pub team - 15/16 is an entire squad nearly. Soccer is the easiest sport in world to play
Clondalkin has its own rugby club - plays 4/5 teams in the junior leagues in Leinster/Dublin


25/03/2015 10:12:24
updwell
County: Limerick
Posts: 217

1706307 Posters here can't seriously compare the divide between Catholic/Protestant in Ulster and rich/working-class in Leinster-people were at war for 30 years in the North so your life literally was at risk(from both sides) if you crossed the divide while in Leinster there was no such obstacle yet working-class people are still rare in Leinster rugby. We all know about Sean O'Brien but that's because the rugby community goes on and on about him so he must be an exception while there are plenty Protestants playing for Ulster teams but the GAA doesn't go the papers to have it highlighted every week. As for the ban thats gone40 years, if you go back that far rugby was definitely an elitest sport then so maybe that's where we get that impression of rugby being for the rich only, the nearest we have to a ban nowdays is all these provincial rugby academys banning 18/19 year oldsfrom playing GAA under sanction of dismissal from the academy.
Back to the original topic on here , well done to the young Kerry lad on winning both medals ,he must be a seriously committed individual to do that

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 25/03/2015 21:26:15    1706630

"Rugby isn't elitist. If you think it is then you don't know what the word means."

Ormo, you can't engage in a debate by simply saying your point of view over and over, you have to say why this is so. Saying something is elitist is saying that it's not open to all which is certainly true of schools rugby in Dublin. That is (hopefully) no longer by design but simply a fault in the competition which (hopefully) the people involved want to fix. I don't see much controversy in saying that. While the competition is open to every school to compete, not every school or interested child can participate because of resources and expertise. Just like not every school can decide tomorrow to enter the Harty Cup. The difference is that instead of being random, the schools are divided along class lines. As I said already, admitting that there's a fault in rugby is actually what a good rugby fan would do instead of writing nonsense about how we simply don't understand words and naming players who you claim prove that public schools supply players to Leinster which turns out to be a total lie. Thanks to Daytona for pointing out this lie.


I'm not going to define a disadvantaged area. I think if you're capable of using a computer and registering with HS then you're capable of finding out what this word means and it is pretty much universally understood. My understanding wouldn't be any different from this. I already named certain things, look back over my post.

Seriously Ormo, unless you are indeed only 15, this is very childish stuff.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 26/03/2015 09:23:20    1706659

26/03/2015 09:23:20 hurlinspuds
"Rugby isn't elitist. If you think it is then you don't know what the word means."
Ormo, you can't engage in a debate by simply saying your point of view over and over, you have to say why this is so. Saying something is elitist is saying that it's not open to all which is certainly true of schools rugby in Dublin. That is (hopefully) no longer by design but simply a fault in the competition which (hopefully) the people involved want to fix. I don't see much controversy in saying that. While the competition is open to every school to compete, not every school or interested child can participate because of resources and expertise. Just like not every school can decide tomorrow to enter the Harty Cup. The difference is that instead of being random, the schools are divided along class lines. You or anyone else cant call me childish when ye all(nearly all) deliberately spell my name wrong and continue to do so despite being asked to spell it correctly.
How is rugby elitist? Majority of players playing pro rugby being from fee paying sports doesn't make a sport elitist. Schools rugby in Dublin is open to all. There is a large variety of tiers of competition. You hardly expect a school beginning to play rugby will be taking on Blackrock or Michaels or Terenure in their first year or two playing rugby. They wont. They will play in the appropriate competition and have to work up towards playing Blackrock etc in the future if deemed good enough
The main Leinster schools cups that get the media attention are the culmination of competitions that began back in September/October.
The Leinster schools cups are not divided on class lines. The top schools happen to be fee paying from Dublin and a few boarding schools but theyre the schools where rugby is strongest in Dublin.
26/03/2015 09:23:20 hurlinspuds
As I said already, admitting that there's a fault in rugby is actually what a good rugby fan would do instead of writing nonsense about how we simply don't understand words and naming players who you claim prove that public schools supply players to Leinster which turns out to be a total lie. Thanks to Daytona for pointing out this lie.
I'm not going to define a disadvantaged area. I think if you're capable of using a computer and registering with HS then you're capable of finding out what this word means and it is pretty much universally understood. My understanding wouldn't be any different from this. I already named certain things, look back over my post.
Seriously Ormo, unless you are indeed only 15, this is very childish stuff. You cant call me childish when you deliberately spell my name wrong. Its Ormond.
I asked you to define a disadvantaged area as its key to your argument. What areas of Dublin would you class as "disadvantaged"?
Everybody in the word doesn't have the same practical understanding of a word as what is in a dictionary and that is why I asked you about the term disadvantaged

Ormond, my post was a sarcastic one. I agree that Rugby in Ireland started off with the upper classes and most of the national team were in fee paying schools. But rugby has spreaf far into non-traditionally rugby areas and in some cases into GAA heartland. We had alot of lads who played rugby in the GAA off season and GAA always came first if games clashed. So I can see why it's still perceived as an elitist sport. But as I have said if you look below the National, Provincial and AIL level and on down to coaching in primary schools in non-traditional rugby areas a lot of work is done by people who are not ex fee paying school people (some of whom might be decent people!) but sound hard working people, many who lobe soccer GAA and other sports.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 26/03/2015 10:22:02    1706673

26/03/2015 10:22:02 GreenandRed
Ormond, my post was a sarcastic one. I agree that Rugby in Ireland started off with the upper classes and most of the national team were in fee paying schools. But rugby has spreaf far into non-traditionally rugby areas and in some cases into GAA heartland. We had alot of lads who played rugby in the GAA off season and GAA always came first if games clashed. So I can see why it's still perceived as an elitist sport. But as I have said if you look below the National, Provincial and AIL level and on down to coaching in primary schools in non-traditional rugby areas a lot of work is done by people who are not ex fee paying school people (some of whom might be decent people!) but sound hard working people, many who lobe soccer GAA and other sports. Sorry GreenandRed. Hard to know considering the attitudes of some people on here. Rugby did start in the main with upper classes and most were in fee paying schools but there always has been huge numbers from beyond those classes playing. Some of the oldest clubs in the country are tipp clubs like clanwilliam, nenagh and then you have the clubs like co Carlow etc etc all clubs founded same year or before GAA was in 1884.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 26/03/2015 10:38:26    1706677

On the back of this thread , I asked my 14 and 16 year olds to name the sports that their school mates are involved in , and to name sports that other pupils would be involved in , in a school of over a thousand pupils these sports were named , Soccer number one , Gaa number two , basketball number three , martial arts , they knew of one guy who plays rugby One .
Listening to the Oh they are doing so much in non rugby areas to promote the game reminds me of the fella hearing of the green shoots of economic growth and end of the reccession just as hes evicted from his home .
Wake up and smell the coffee , I watch the game of rugby and cheer as much as the next guy when a game is on , but I am as emotionaly attached to it as I am to women boxing in other words Im not , nor are my kids , nor are their friends , nor are their neighbours .From a part of Dublin awaiting the big rugby recruitment we all keep hearing about , but never quite get to see .
Christ last year my kids even played cricket with the school but rugby come back in a decade .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 26/03/2015 10:39:55    1706678

How did I misspell your name? Jaysus, take it easy, is ormo not shorter than ormondbannerman? Can I say Ormond, is that ok?

I fail to see how defining disadvantaged areas is crucial to my argument. I already said high unemployment, social problems etc. Do you want me to define unemployment as well.

A school competition that it is overwhelmingly only competed for by rich people's children is elitist. What we cannot say is whether it is purposefully so or simply a problem waiting to be resolved. I don't see how you can be offended by that. I think maybe you're too quick to be offended, your arguments on here have been to say that anyone who calls it elitist doesn't know anything about rugby yet the only person to say something completely wrong about rugby is you in naming people that were supposedly publicly educated in Leinster and were not, something for which you still haven't corrected yourself.

The only cogent argument you have made is that you hate it when people get your name wrong.

Also, your bolding and mass quotation of previous posts is confusing rather than helpful.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 26/03/2015 13:43:09    1706738

26/03/2015 13:43:09 hurlinspuds
How did I misspell your name? Jaysus, take it easy, is ormo not shorter than ormondbannerman? Can I say Ormond, is that ok?
I fail to see how defining disadvantaged areas is crucial to my argument. I already said high unemployment, social problems etc. Do you want me to define unemployment as well.
A school competition that it is overwhelmingly only competed for by rich people's children is elitist. What we cannot say is whether it is purposefully so or simply a problem waiting to be resolved. I don't see how you can be offended by that. I think maybe you're too quick to be offended, your arguments on here have been to say that anyone who calls it elitist doesn't know anything about rugby yet the only person to say something completely wrong about rugby is you in naming people that were supposedly publicly educated in Leinster and were not, something for which you still haven't corrected yourself. The only cogent argument you have made is that you hate it when people get your name wrong. Also, your bolding and mass quotation of previous posts is confusing rather than helpful.The name is Ormond. Ormond_bannerman. Two words. Call me Ormond. Anything else is trolling
What area is disadvantaged? How is an area disadvantaged? What makes an area be classed as disadvantaged? What areas would you refer to as disadvantaged? All are key to your argument as peoples opinions on whether an area is disadvantaged or not will vary depending on what they class as being disadvantaged. Its all about context.
The schools cups are not overwhelmingly competed for by rich people's children. Going to a fee paying school doesn't mean that you are rich. Many who attend such schools do so by their parents cutting back in many other areas of life
The schools cups that get the media attention are just the final 16 teams of 00s of schools that compete in the one competition. All competitions for schools rugby are interlinked in that any school competing in the bottom tier could rise up even in their first year competing in schools rugby to go on and qualify for a leinster junior/senior schools cup first round match in Donnybrook against a Blackrock/Terenure/Michaels/Castleknock/Kilkenny etc

How does clearly differentiating my posts from other peoples posts by bolding the posts im referring to make things confusing. I also "quote" other peoples posts to make clear exactly who and what I am discussing. This forum doesn't have a quote button like most forums so I copy and paste the post/poster I am in discussion with. What is wrong with that?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 26/03/2015 14:09:07    1706745

You bold fine most of the time but the posts on this page above you confused between quotation and your own words and I couldn't see what you were saying and what you were replying to.

You're determined not to admit being wrong and apologizing for telling complete fantasy tales about Leinster players' education. Big of you.

Does anyone else understand how this is key to my argument?
"What area is disadvantaged? How is an area disadvantaged? What makes an area be classed as disadvantaged? What areas would you refer to as disadvantaged? All are key to your argument as peoples opinions on whether an area is disadvantaged or not will vary depending on what they class as being disadvantaged. Its all about context."

I don't want to start naming neighbourhoods of Dublin as being disadvantaged. You can look up the ESRI or any number of NGOs who define such things and set out reports on Dublin all the time as to which areas are disadvantaged socially and economically. If you really don't think anywhere is disadvantaged then you can look up the 2011 deprivation index, NUI Maynooth came up with this really interesting mapping system based on the 2006 and 2011 census reports. A quick google will find it for you. If you still have a problem with how NUI Maynooth defines it then you had better take it up with them.

Let me break it down one last time. The rules of the competition are not at fault, it is indeed open for all on paper but the system is inherently elitist because less well off kids have no chance to compete in it. The teams competing are overwhelmingly fee paying schools. Examining it on the basis of 'this area plays rugby traditionally and this area does not' is one thing but those traditional areas are also divided by class. This is why no one is saying that it being difficult for a young hurler in school in south Kerry to compete is an elitist issue, schools rugby is a class based tradition. Anyone who thinks there is no snobbery and that there is no issue of elitism in Dublin schools rugby is denying the obvious and actually doing harm to rugby in trying to defend it.

As for saying that people don't have to be well off to send their kids to a private, fee paying school. This statement actually makes me think that perhaps we are talking about two completely different things. The kind of areas and the kind of parents I'm talking about do not have this as an option. There are neighbourhoods in Dublin where no one sends their kid to a private school and it's not some kind of lifestyle choice like you make out. When I say rich kids I don't necessarily mean ones that drive around in their Dad's BMW, I just mean that they will likely go to university and are comfortably off.

Ormond, just admit you were completely wrong, apologise to Daytona for telling tall tales and we'll all move on and call you by your full name in future. Ormondbannerman, rugby legend. Or at least try to make a decent point other than we simply know nothing about rugby.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 26/03/2015 15:34:54    1706783

26/03/2015 15:34:54 hurlinspuds
You bold fine most of the time but the posts on this page above you confused between quotation and your own words and I couldn't see what you were saying and what you were replying to.You're determined not to admit being wrong and apologizing for telling complete fantasy tales about Leinster players' education. Big of you. Does anyone else understand how this is key to my argument?
"What area is disadvantaged? How is an area disadvantaged? What makes an area be classed as disadvantaged? What areas would you refer to as disadvantaged? All are key to your argument as peoples opinions on whether an area is disadvantaged or not will vary depending on what they class as being disadvantaged. Its all about context." I don't want to start naming neighbourhoods of Dublin as being disadvantaged. You can look up the ESRI or any number of NGOs who define such things and set out reports on Dublin all the time as to which areas are disadvantaged socially and economically. If you really don't think anywhere is disadvantaged then you can look up the 2011 deprivation index, NUI Maynooth came up with this really interesting mapping system based on the 2006 and 2011 census reports. A quick google will find it for you. If you still have a problem with how NUI Maynooth defines it then you had better take it up with them.They confused you maybe because you couldn't grasp the discussion but it was very clear to me and I haven't seen any other complaints. How am I telling tales about the background of players? I asked for the names of areas as its key to this whole discussion and your lack of names of these areas doesn't back up your points at all. It just discredits what you're attempting to say.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 26/03/2015 16:40:26    1706803

26/03/2015 15:34:54 hurlinspuds
Let me break it down one last time. The rules of the competition are not at fault, it is indeed open for all on paper but the system is inherently elitist because less well off kids have no chance to compete in it. The teams competing are overwhelmingly fee paying schools. Examining it on the basis of 'this area plays rugby traditionally and this area does not' is one thing but those traditional areas are also divided by class. This is why no one is saying that it being difficult for a young hurler in school in south Kerry to compete is an elitist issue, schools rugby is a class based tradition. Anyone who thinks there is no snobbery and that there is no issue of elitism in Dublin schools rugby is denying the obvious and actually doing harm to rugby in trying to defend it.
As for saying that people don't have to be well off to send their kids to a private, fee paying school. This statement actually makes me think that perhaps we are talking about two completely different things. The kind of areas and the kind of parents I'm talking about do not have this as an option. There are neighbourhoods in Dublin where no one sends their kid to a private school and it's not some kind of lifestyle choice like you make out. When I say rich kids I don't necessarily mean ones that drive around in their Dad's BMW, I just mean that they will likely go to university and are comfortably off.It is more than on paper that the competitions are open to all. There is numerous tiers and teams of a similar standard play off against each other.
A competition isn't elitist because the non fee paying schools(in the main) are not at the sufficient playing standard to qualify for the main cups. That isn't elitism. If you think that a competition where the best teams on the field of play qualify for the bigger competitions is elitist then god help you!
I have never stated there isn't snobbery involved in schools rugby. There is. But you and many here before and many here who will in the future, are also acting as snobs. Looking down upon those with a different belief. In this case sporting belief.
What is being well off? How do you define being well off. There is significant numbers of parents who work double jobs, etc etc to get their kids through their 5/6 years in a fee paying school.
Im a rich kid then because I happen to be currently in university. You haven't a notion of what you're talking about with the analogies you are coming out with
65% of participation rate in third level...
link
You don't have to be well off to attend a fee paying school. It all depends on disposable income and choices in how its spent. cut back in different areas and invest it back in education. very different things

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 26/03/2015 16:40:44    1706805

26/03/2015 15:34:54 hurlinspuds
Ormond, just admit you were completely wrong, apologise to Daytona for telling tall tales and we'll all move on and call you by your full name in future. Ormondbannerman, rugby legend. Or at least try to make a decent point other than we simply know nothing about rugby. Are you my mother. Should I know log off from the forum. wash my teeth, comb my hair. Whats honestly the problem with being called by the correct name. What is wrong with people being polite. My username is two words. ORMOND and BANNERMAN. What is wrong with my request to be called by the first word that makes up my username?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 26/03/2015 16:40:54    1706806

Kerryrowz,I hope you're proud of yourself for starting all this carry on ;-)

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 26/03/2015 16:57:38    1706817

This thread has started to go away from the topic. Anything off topic from now on will not be posted.

Admin.

Administrator (None) - Posts: 2274 - 26/03/2015 16:58:42    1706819

Nothing wrong with that at all my little ormond. Now don't you pay any heed to those ruffians.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 26/03/2015 17:04:39    1706822

Ben Traynor - Wexford: All-Ireland Colleges A hurling with Dublin Colleges, on the Leinster Senior Cup winning squad with Blackrock and also played in the u-21 Leinster football final Wexford played in 08 when they lost to Kildare.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 26/03/2015 17:09:49    1706825

I give up.

Ormondbannerman - rugby legend, won this debate on the basis that I wouldn't name a neighbourhood of Dublin that is disadvantaged so presumably none exist and anyone can send their kids to private schools if they make an effort and get a 2nd job. Easypeasy.

I fear for our third level education.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 26/03/2015 17:42:27    1706841

hurlinspuds don't act so arrogant. if you want to discuss this further we can on twitter etc as we cant here? You won nothing

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 26/03/2015 17:48:21    1706846

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 9492


You don't have to be well off to attend a fee paying school.

I think this opinion of Ormo's actually explains about how he sees the world.

Everything is relative to your experience I suppose.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13718 - 26/03/2015 18:50:38    1706859