Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 02/11/2016 22:06:02    1931034

bulmccabe (Tyrone) - Posts: 361 - 02/11/2016 22:44:14    1931053

If the GAA are to build a stadium that is a symbol for the organisation and a flagship for GAA in Ulster for the next 40 years it's probably best not to select the location on sectarian lines.

I agree, but there could be a stronger argument that locating it in West Belfast is more to do with Sectarian lines than Central Ulster.

But even allowing for your argument, Down, Antrim and north Armagh still account for over 50% of Ulsters nationalist population. Should the stadium be in the geographical centre or the centre of the overall population?

Move away from your strict focus on Geography centre and population centre, I understand why you mention those marginal majorities after you have added North Armagh, but try and look more at "Central location" in terms of travel to and from the Stadium by GAA fans from all 9 Counties. Every County will be supplying 15-20,000 fans to big Provincial matches, and thus I suggest we consider precisely who will be using this Stadium within GAA circles, and cater to their needs.

My focus and belief is that we should be building a Provincial Stadium to serve ALL the GAA fans across the Province, and reducing travel times from all 9 Counties is the best way we could do that.

With Antrim being the only Ulster county to have All-Ireland senior club champions in both football and hurling maybe they should be rewarded with a stadium which caters for both games.
Soma (UK) - Posts:1635 - 02/11/2016 22:06:02

Oh contrary to jibes made by some of the Antrim posters in anger at me questioning this Casement Project, I am 100% in favour of Antrim having a quality County ground that matches others in Ulster, regardless of whether they have All Ireland winning club teams or not. I am in favour of Casement getting an appropriate face lift.

I'm against Casement being the Provincial Stadium though, as it's not the best location for that type of venue.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 02/11/2016 22:48:21    1931056

Gary, with all due respect, whether in your opinion, technical or not you are still wrong. You intimated that the sole reason for the funding was the RWC you were wrong. A multitude of posters have discussed the merits of having the stadium located closest to the major population centres, still not good enough for you. You are ploughing a lone furrow and your insistence that Ulster GAA can pick and chose how they spend the money is fanciful.

You are also incredibly selective in your responses, so to reiterate casement held Ulster finals up until about 1971 and hurling finals right up until it closed, there is no recent historical precedent for the finals being anywhere else other than Belfast, Clones or Dublin for a period in the 00's. Your insistence that if you build it they will come is a non argument as a green field site offers little return on the investment the gaa will put in. 45% of Ulsters GAA clubs are in Antrim, Down and Armagh, if you add in Tyrone goes up to 58%. All within 60-90 mins of Belfast by car, train and bus.

To help you along, if you look at some modern stadia and I can think of two in wales in Rugby, in Llanelli they built a brand new stadium out of town replacing the historic stradey park, very very rarely full, no atmosphere, Cardiff rugby moved to cardiff city's stadium for two years, also out of city centre then moved back to their central home because of poor crowds and worse atmosphere.

A stadium which everyone has to travel to will struggle to recoup any of its costs, one in a more populous center has a much better chance of this and for every accusation of parochial bias can you not see an equal accusation of bigotry, arrogance and snobbery can be levied at yourself?

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 03/11/2016 08:56:36    1931076

Gary
Move away from your strict focus on Geography centre and population centre, I understand why you mention those marginal majorities after you have added North Armagh, but try and look more at "Central location" in terms of travel to and from the Stadium by GAA fans from all 9 Counties. Every County will be supplying 15-20,000 fans to big Provincial matches, and thus I suggest we consider precisely who will be using this Stadium within GAA circles, and cater to their needs.
This is the bit I struggle with Gary. If the stadium is to serve the people why focus on geography rather than population? Also why do you accept that in an ulster final between Fermanagh and Down for example we should expect both counties to bring 15-20000. That's 33% of the population of Fermanagh, 3% of the population of Down. Surely the GAA should be looking to grow the games and plan accordingly. If the stadium is to serve the people then put it near as many of them as possible, not half way between two land points.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 03/11/2016 10:50:26    1931118

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 03/11/2016 11:00:57    1931130

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 03/11/2016 11:01:45    1931131

This is the bit I struggle with Gary. If the stadium is to serve the people why focus on geography rather than population? Also why do you accept that in an ulster final between Fermanagh and Down for example we should expect both counties to bring 15-20000. That's 33% of the population of Fermanagh, 3% of the population of Down. Surely the GAA should be looking to grow the games and plan accordingly. If the stadium is to serve the people then put it near as many of them as possible, not half way between two land points.

Soma (UK) - Posts:1638 - 03/11/2016 10:50:26

Regardless of how much the GAA grow Gaelic Games, your currently looking at a proposed Stadium that can hold approximately 34,000 people. So whether you have just two teams bringing 17,000 each or a double header with all 4 teams bringing 8,500 each, 34,000 is all the Stadium will hold regardless of the population size of each County.

Now considering eight Counties in Ulster could realistically bring 17,000 to a game, with Fermanagh maybe struggling to do achieve that. This essentially makes all Counties equal in terms of what they can bring to the Stadium in terms of numbers, regardless of their Individual populations.

I think I already said that I try not to focus strictly in terms of Geographical centre or population centre when looking at alternatives, but instead focus on a central point when looking at where fans from each County within Ulster are travelling from. And if a Provincial Stadium is easily accessed by fans from all Counties, you might find more people are willing to travel to games, knowing they can leave home a bit later on a Sunday morning, and will be home fairly early too. Meaning there is still serious scope for the games to grow.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/11/2016 20:24:59    1931336

Gary, with all due respect, whether in your opinion, technical or not you are still wrong. You intimated that the sole reason for the funding was the RWC you were wrong.

I'm actually right in that the funding by the British Government to develop 3 Stadiums in Belfast City, was Intended to aid Ireland's bid to host the Rugby World Cup. Why else specify that 3 x Stadiums must be built in the one small City, yes both Rugby and Soccer Stadiums will cater to International fans and all that entails, but the GAA ground is ear marked to be a Provincial Ground, not National or International.

A multitude of posters have discussed the merits of having the stadium located closest to the major population centres, still not good enough for you. You are ploughing a lone furrow and your insistence that Ulster GAA can pick and chose how they spend the money is fanciful.

A multitude of posters have reinforced the thinking that this project is seriously flawed, some of the reasons for having a Provincial Stadium in West Belfast have wandered into the ridiculous, ranging from access to airports, hotels, shopping, Concerts, Corporate events etc. Things the Ulster GAA fans attending a Provincial Championship match really needs eh! Somebody even suggested that Ulster Rugby team might hold their bigger matches in Casement, Although maybe failed to consider the appeal of National West Belfast to predominantly Unionist supported Ulster Rugby team.

You are also incredibly selective in your responses, so to reiterate casement held Ulster finals up until about 1971 and hurling finals right up until it closed, there is no recent historical precedent for the finals being anywhere else other than Belfast, Clones or Dublin for a period in the 00's. Your insistence that if you build it they will come is a non argument as a green field site offers little return on the investment the gaa will put in. 45% of Ulsters GAA clubs are in Antrim, Down and Armagh, if you add in Tyrone goes up to 58%. All within 60-90 mins of Belfast by car, train and bus. Duckula20 (Antrim)

- It doesn't matter where Ulster final's used to be held, What matters is that we learn from past mistakes and make the right decision this time.
- While I did suggest the merits of a green field site in the past, I also suggested the cheapest and most viable option of developing an existing central Stadium like Healy Park in Omagh, which has enough ground around it to allow it to expand up to 34-40,000 capacity, and would also have a lot of ground nearby for parking. I estimate developing this ground and building car parks would cost no more than £30 million in total.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/11/2016 21:04:43    1931350

To help you along, if you look at some modern stadia and I can think of two in wales in Rugby, in Llanelli they built a brand new stadium out of town replacing the historic stradey park, very very rarely full, no atmosphere, Cardiff rugby moved to cardiff city's stadium for two years, also out of city centre then moved back to their central home because of poor crowds and worse atmosphere.

Those examples are of Stadiums belonging to a single team, teams based in towns or Cities within which the majority of their fans are located. This simply does not apply to a Provincial GAA Stadium in Ulster, as the vast majority of Ulster GAA fans currently travel quite a long distance to major games right now, and would probably on average find the lesser journey to a more central stadium more appealing.

A stadium which everyone has to travel to will struggle to recoup any of its costs, one in a more populous center has a much better chance of this and for every accusation of parochial bias can you not see an equal accusation of bigotry, arrogance and snobbery can be levied at yourself?
duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts:136 - 03/11/2016 08:56:36 1

Do you not see that GAA fans across Ulster normally have to travel for 1-2 hours to games as it stands? The Urban Populous centre makes sense for Stadiums associated with a single team from within that particular region, but this Stadium will be hosting 9 different teams from a collection of regions within the Province.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/11/2016 21:05:10    1931351

Believe me, im certainly not the one going bananas!

That is another debate.

I will ask you one last question though, do you accept/care that Belfast GAA clubs in particular have been struggling to attract kids for a myriad of reasons over the last while?

I'm not directly involved with all of the GAA Clubs in Belfast, But yes I will absolutely accept that based on your word.

If somehow you manage to answer yes, do you then accept that having such a fantastic and iconic facility on their doorstep will encourage our kids/schools to pick up a hurl, football or handball?

I do accept that an Stadium can inspire children to dream of playing in that Stadium one day, and I again will say that I have always been in favour of Antrim GAA having a top quality County Ground. My issue with the current Casement proposal is not because of a dislike to Antrim GAA or Belfast as some regularly and wrongly suggest here, but simply that Casement is not a suitable location for a Provincial Stadium of Ulster.

So basically, im asking you here to do what you constantly accuse us of not doing, which is look at the bigger picture in GAA terms or does it matter more to you that it only takes an hour to travel to omagh?
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1455 - 03/11/2016 11:00:57

I have looked at the bigger picture, and it is for that reason I strongly believe with conviction that Casement is not the correct location for a Provincial Stadium. We have a whole province of children to inspire, we have a whole province of GAA fans to consider. I'm not trying to belittle your Counties needs, I'm just trying to highlight the needs of the rest of the Province which are currently being ignored.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/11/2016 21:26:54    1931358

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 03/11/2016 21:39:56    1931362

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 03/11/2016 22:12:55    1931368

If having a stadium close to the population so they can attend a game offers a chance to grow the game then surely you put it closer to the 1.1 million people on the east coast than the 170000 people on the west coast.

No, sure over 50% of that 1.1 million will never dream of going to a GAA match.

A Provincial GAA Stadium should be located centrally to the geographical spread of the current Provincial Ulster GAA Counties and their fan-bases, who currently contribute a significant amount of funding to the GAA every year. I have already said you should stop thinking strictly in terms of Overall Population centre and the Geographical centre point of Ulster, instead think about those who travel from all corners for games.

The greatest scope for growth by far is around the greater Belfast area.

Scope for growth does not buy tickets and put arses on seats, precisely why this proposed project is set to become a "Provincial Stadium" and gain from Provincial Money. Potential Gaelic Games growth is applicable to all Counties of Ulster.

With so much uncertainty around the future of provincial competition it also seems shortsighted to plan a stadium that will be a flagship for the next 40 years around it.
Soma (UK) - Posts:1639 - 03/11/2016 21:39:56

There is no uncertainty, the Provincial Championship is here and is what we got right now, there is no alternative in the works, Most suggested alternative competition structures have included retention of the Provincial Championship.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/11/2016 22:54:06    1931376

So more buses go to Omagh than Belfast.


Who said "more" go to Omagh than Belfast? Belfast may see "more" coaches arriving/departing than Omagh, more from the Ferries in Larne, more from Dublin, Carrickfergus, Lisburn, Coleraine, Portadown etc.

But in the context discussed here, which was regarding the viability of Healy Park, Omagh as a Provincial GAA Stadium location over Belfast, Omagh is home to a major Bus hub, offering bus routes to all 9 Counties of Ulster, especially shorter journeys to Derry, Letterkenny, Strabane, Enniskillen, Cavan, Monaghan etc.

So much more buses that it makes the trains to Belfast irrelevant too!
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts:10170 - 03/11/2016 22:12:55

Again, The rail network sadly does not reach all counties in Ulster, so it is irrelevant to GAA fans when considering travel to and from all 9 Counties of Ulster. Naturally you might assume some kind of excellent rail network exists across Ulster from Belfast, but that is simply not the case.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/11/2016 23:35:01    1931380

Gary
Scope for growth does not buy tickets and put arses on seats, precisely why this proposed project is set to become a "Provincial Stadium" and gain from Provincial Money. Potential Gaelic Games growth is applicable to all Counties of Ulster.
Potential growth in all counties but surely you will admit there is far far more potential for growth in Down and Antrim to the east than Fermanagh and Donegal to the west? You have very short-sighted views, the stadium isn't just for the next few Ulster championships but to serve Gaelic games in Ulster for the next 40 years. Things have changed a lot in Ulster in the last 40 years so it's disappointing to see you state that 50% of the population on the east coast will never play GAA - I could equally say hurling will never be taken seriously in the western counties of Ulster so why should the provincial stadium which caters for the game be located there?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/11/2016 11:17:59    1931451

Mes Amis, don't believe everything you read in the papers ;-) Bus Services from Ulster which go to or pass by Omagh:

Ulsterbus
78: Ballygawley - Dungannon (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
83:Omagh Bus Centre - Irvinestown (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
83a: Omagh, Buscentre - Kesh, Ulster Bank (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
85h: Omagh, Bus Station - Clogher, Bus Shelter (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
86: Omagh - Carrickmore - Dungannon (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
87: Buscentre - Omagh - Mainstreet - Fintona (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
88h: Omagh, Bus Station - Cookstown (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
92,92a,92b and 92h: Omagh - Greencastle (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
93,93h: Omagh - Beragh - Sixmilecross - Gortfin (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
94,94h: Omagh - Enniskillen (1 Sunday Service which has you in Omagh at 17:45 and leaves Omagh for the reverse at 18:25)
96: Omagh, Bus Station - Castlederg, John Street (bus gets you in to Omagh at 17:50 then you jump in your De Lorean, watch the game and get the bus back to Castlederg at 17:10)
97,97h: Omagh - Strabane (unfortunately not on a Sunday)
384a,b,c,d,e,f,g: Omagh Town Service (can't even get around Omagh itself by bus on a Sunday)
403: Omagh, Bus Station - Magherafelt, Buscentre (unfortunately not on a Sunday)

Goldliner:
273: Belfast - Dungannon - Omagh - Derry (service on a Sunday)
x273: above in reverse (service on a Sunday)
X3: Derry - Dublin Airport - Dublin (service on a Sunday)

Bus Eireann:
Donegal to Omagh - one service:
32: Dublin - Dublin Airport - Monaghan - Letterkenny (2 services coming from Dublin would get you to Omagh on a Sunday in time for throw-in, 4 coming from Letterkenny)

Cavan to Omagh - no route

Monaghan to Omagh - two services:
32: Dublin - Dublin Airport - Monaghan - Letterkenny (as above, 2 coming from Dublin through Monaghan, 2 on way back from Letterkenny to take you back from Omagh after)
33: Dublin - Dublin Airport - Monaghan - Derry (2 buses from Dublin through Monaghan, 2 coming back after - if you are happy to either rush to get the 17:30 back or wait for the 00:50 one).

Hardly ideal services for those who would be attending matches from the 9 counties.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 04/11/2016 12:57:57    1931493

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 04/11/2016 13:15:59    1931507

No idea how many use Public transport at all cavanman - just read it in a newspaper or somewhere that "Omagh is a major bus hub in Ulster, so yes it actually has better and certainly shorter bus links in all directions across 9 Counties of Ulster. This is another reason why it would be a more suitable location than Belfast."

Was more about dispelling the myth that thinking too much about how many get a bus, train or automobile. Suppose the fact is though that having a service provides an option.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 04/11/2016 13:50:01    1931517

I know the Money is from Britain but could the money not be spent on building a modern smaller stadium for Antrim and possible Semi Finals. Use the remaining money to upgrade Clones.With the good Friday agreement surely the money could be used in the Republic.The Irish Government are putting big money in to the A5,Altnagelvin Hospital and Derry City Airport because it will benefit people from Donegal.A state of the art Stadium in Clones would surely benefit a lot of the people from the six counties.I would say it could be done if the will was there.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1057 - 04/11/2016 14:14:46    1931536