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Replying To Square_B: "Wow a crime to enter a pitch. Advocating to waste Gardai time prosecuting people for entering a pitch. That's a good one. Would be better for the GAA to police their own members than wasting Gardai time for such petty actions." Its a crime in GB to enter a pitch (soccer anyway)
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1451 - 26/10/2023 19:11:10
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Replying To Low2Joe: "I think I'd go for that myself. Punish the whole club and removed from championship for the rest of the current year or the following year. Could maybe stick with adult teams and could possibly also relegate the clubs top team. But then if you do it to each team in the club it's show young lads the consequences of acting the hard man. I guarantee if this happened to one or two clubs, there would be a sharp decline in these incidents. The clubs can still compete in leagues and cups matches so they'll have enough to keep them ticking over. This level of punishment will be the only way to get clubs to take responsibility. There'd be no more of the "ah sure that's Johnny, he's a bit cracked" attitude.
I think the idea of match officials wearing body cameras is a bloody great idea. People and players would soon learn to keep their opinions to themselves if their actions were recorded." But it's not showing the kids the consequences of acting the hard man is it? They didn't act the hard man.
If anything the person who'd suffer the least is the person who actually committed the offense.
The overriding emotion the kids would feel would be confusion, and a sense of injustice.
Actually, confusion and injustice? Now I think of it banning them would be the PERFECT preparation for the modern world.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1741 - 26/10/2023 19:20:47
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Replying To OpenStand: "Counties in the GAA are allowing some people be referees that are totally unsuited & Incapable because they pass some basic basic course you cant fail they can ref for the next 20 years . These people then are causing chaos at many matchs during the year and giving all refs a bad name which leads to all referees getting grief.
This particular ref has got a lot of training and done many courses so id back him fully but its the one or two disastorous refs in each county that are creating a culture of the ref been wrong." Well GAA need to provide better ongoing training then.
refs need to have monthly meetings to discuss rules, have video clips and discussions around issues that may have come up in games
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 26/10/2023 20:56:05
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Replying To Square_B: "What are you talking about? The Gardai have more to be at than policing the members of the GAA who it seems can't police themselves." What are you on about. The guards would have no issue investigating some of the incidents that have occurred recently. Straight forward for them really looking at some of the footage.
Think at this stage it's the approach that's needed, there needs to be real consequences for this behaviour.
Low2Joe (Wexford) - Posts: 48 - 26/10/2023 21:23:58
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Its a crime in GB to enter a pitch (soccer anyway)" Happy lads going on the pitch to celebrate or puck or kick a ball around before or after a game shouldn't be penalised on account of the odd a#####e.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12130 - 27/10/2023 10:12:09
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Replying To Low2Joe: "What are you on about. The guards would have no issue investigating some of the incidents that have occurred recently. Straight forward for them really looking at some of the footage.
Think at this stage it's the approach that's needed, there needs to be real consequences for this behaviour." If the referee (person that's assaulted) doesn't make complaints then nothing can or will be done. If they do then the person that committed the assault can be dealt with. On till that happens nothing will change. Simply as that. How did the case in Rosscomm ever end up? Never heard to much more about it. Some of these people need to made an example of to show others what will happen if this continues
Thejampot (Leitrim) - Posts: 255 - 27/10/2023 10:43:05
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Replying To KillingFields: "I dont think thats the case at all.
refs in the GAA dont get enough training or support to help them develop
where are the older/more experienced/retired refs helping out newer refs?
what do you define as the required standard?" Referees are obviously examined before they can become a referee. The examination would include questions about the rules set out in the rule book.
As with everything some will be better than others.
What I mean by not reaching the required standard is that because there's a shortage of referees the examiners may pass a referee that isn't quite up to doing the job of refereeing but gives them the nod anyway.
Maybe this does not happen but its just me thinking outside the box.
With the current climate of abuse and violence towards officials would be Referees will/ are thinking " why should I get involved with this?
I don't want to put myself in danger.,"
I know I would be thinking along those lines if I was considering becoming a referee.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 287 - 27/10/2023 11:08:02
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Replying To Magpie2: "Referees are obviously examined before they can become a referee. The examination would include questions about the rules set out in the rule book.
As with everything some will be better than others.
What I mean by not reaching the required standard is that because there's a shortage of referees the examiners may pass a referee that isn't quite up to doing the job of refereeing but gives them the nod anyway.
Maybe this does not happen but its just me thinking outside the box.
With the current climate of abuse and violence towards officials would be Referees will/ are thinking " why should I get involved with this?
I don't want to put myself in danger.,"
I know I would be thinking along those lines if I was considering becoming a referee." you can only improve by reffing games
having knowledge of rules is important but you only learn through practice and repetition.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 27/10/2023 11:38:00
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Replying To Magpie2: "Referees are obviously examined before they can become a referee. The examination would include questions about the rules set out in the rule book.
As with everything some will be better than others.
What I mean by not reaching the required standard is that because there's a shortage of referees the examiners may pass a referee that isn't quite up to doing the job of refereeing but gives them the nod anyway.
Maybe this does not happen but its just me thinking outside the box.
With the current climate of abuse and violence towards officials would be Referees will/ are thinking " why should I get involved with this?
I don't want to put myself in danger.,"
I know I would be thinking along those lines if I was considering becoming a referee." what exactly is required standard you are referring to?
if ref struggles reffing at adult level move them back to u16/14. no ref should be totally removed.
the refs need to get reqular assessments from experienced/retired refs.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 27/10/2023 12:24:35
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Replying To Low2Joe: "What are you on about. The guards would have no issue investigating some of the incidents that have occurred recently. Straight forward for them really looking at some of the footage.
Think at this stage it's the approach that's needed, there needs to be real consequences for this behaviour." Replying To Low2Joe: "That poster appears to have a personal gripe with the guards.
In responce to another poster about one of my posts, you basically said I have a gripe with the Gardai... where exactly did I say that????
As for the rest, I stand by exactly what I said. The GAA need to start getting serious about policing their own members.
Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 848 - 27/10/2023 13:52:21
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Replying To KillingFields: "what exactly is required standard you are referring to?
if ref struggles reffing at adult level move them back to u16/14. no ref should be totally removed.
the refs need to get reqular assessments from experienced/retired refs." I gave an explanation of what I mean by "required standard " can't keep going over it again and again.
Yeah, demoting a referee and bringing in retired referees to give advice sounds like a good idea but has it happened in the past? is it happening now? or will it happen in the future? Maybe all three are the case but I doubt it very much.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 287 - 27/10/2023 14:19:18
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Replying To Magpie2: "I gave an explanation of what I mean by "required standard " can't keep going over it again and again.
Yeah, demoting a referee and bringing in retired referees to give advice sounds like a good idea but has it happened in the past? is it happening now? or will it happen in the future? Maybe all three are the case but I doubt it very much." You didnt give an explanation of required standard. you simply said there's a shortage of referees so they just add anyone who turns up
The refs arent examined through the referees course and then told they cant ref without having reffed a game.
Nobody would or could ref anything if that was to be the case
Nobody running a ref course see's themselves as an examiner nor should they.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 27/10/2023 18:46:34
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Replying To KillingFields: "You didnt give an explanation of required standard. you simply said there's a shortage of referees so they just add anyone who turns up
The refs arent examined through the referees course and then told they cant ref without having reffed a game.
Nobody would or could ref anything if that was to be the case
Nobody running a ref course see's themselves as an examiner nor should they." My mistake killingfields. It was my understanding that referees were examined. Maybe that's why we have poor quality officials throughout the organisation.
It just seems strange to me that a lad attends a few courses without any sort of assessment and is then told to get out there and take charge of 30 players.
In every walk of life nowadays, voluntary or paid there is an exam or diploma course. Of course referees will learn the more games they get but imo they should never be let loose on a playing field without qualifications. Courses and seminars are right and good but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person has a basic grasp of the rules.
I suppose the way it's going the gaa are glad to get anyone to take the whistle.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 287 - 30/10/2023 23:23:36
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When you refer to that standard required - i think the referees exam in Wexford requires all referees to get 80% to pass.
Now 80% might seem an ok score in a quiz but in real terms its one in 5 wrong. If you have a referee that is getting every 5th decision wrong you wont be too happy with him.
i was talking with a referee last year (who i consider a decent Ref) and he says that on the best day he goes out he will get 3 or 4 calls wrong. he would hope to get all the big calls right and that the small errors would even each other out. This guy has been reffing for about 15 years and he reckons there were 4 or 5 games where he made an error that probably cost a team the game during this time. He reckons that he has reffed about 1000 games in his career. So that is about 99.5% success rate as he would look at it. He says he averages 95% or above on his rules exam every year.
On the other side he says that he gets Reportable abuse about once every 10 games (6-8 times a year). and about twice a year he gets unreasonable abuse or violent and threatening behavior towards him (once or twice a season).
So if that's what a decent ref is getting i can only imagine the abuse on the poorer refs. There are a few refs i know in wexford that every game i see them ref they are in trouble. (i can only imagine that it must b money motivating them as i see no other reason for them putting themselves up for what they get).
But the referee in Tullamore got the decision right. the individual in question that pushed him was completely at fault and needs to be held accountable for his actions.
Its all about accountability. Is all very fine to come on here and give out. but what are we doing to help. are we all club members. do we all know the rules. do we all respect refs (i know i've often shouted abuse). and there is an air of ignoring the problem by the GAA because no one wants to make rules too harsh as they might be held accountable to them themselves.
bystanderbill (Wexford) - Posts: 26 - 31/10/2023 10:38:40
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Replying To bystanderbill: "When you refer to that standard required - i think the referees exam in Wexford requires all referees to get 80% to pass.
Now 80% might seem an ok score in a quiz but in real terms its one in 5 wrong. If you have a referee that is getting every 5th decision wrong you wont be too happy with him.
i was talking with a referee last year (who i consider a decent Ref) and he says that on the best day he goes out he will get 3 or 4 calls wrong. he would hope to get all the big calls right and that the small errors would even each other out. This guy has been reffing for about 15 years and he reckons there were 4 or 5 games where he made an error that probably cost a team the game during this time. He reckons that he has reffed about 1000 games in his career. So that is about 99.5% success rate as he would look at it. He says he averages 95% or above on his rules exam every year.
On the other side he says that he gets Reportable abuse about once every 10 games (6-8 times a year). and about twice a year he gets unreasonable abuse or violent and threatening behavior towards him (once or twice a season).
So if that's what a decent ref is getting i can only imagine the abuse on the poorer refs. There are a few refs i know in wexford that every game i see them ref they are in trouble. (i can only imagine that it must b money motivating them as i see no other reason for them putting themselves up for what they get).
But the referee in Tullamore got the decision right. the individual in question that pushed him was completely at fault and needs to be held accountable for his actions.
Its all about accountability. Is all very fine to come on here and give out. but what are we doing to help. are we all club members. do we all know the rules. do we all respect refs (i know i've often shouted abuse). and there is an air of ignoring the problem by the GAA because no one wants to make rules too harsh as they might be held accountable to them themselves." That says it all. Great post.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 287 - 31/10/2023 23:15:17
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This topic seems to have moved on to referee's...... this is the problem.
No matter how many decisions a ref gets wrong no one has the right to threaten or assault. There should be severe consequences for anyone that does that. Multi year out lifetime bans at gaa level and whatever the authorities throw at the person as well.
The club should face consequences also but there could be a high level of mitigation if they cooperate fully and are seen to fully back the ref and potentially start a respect education program at club level. I think it is important to state that every club has 1 or 2 head cases but as long as the club dies the right thing punishment should not be too bad.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1838 - 01/11/2023 08:11:00
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Replying To Mayonman: "This topic seems to have moved on to referee's...... this is the problem.
No matter how many decisions a ref gets wrong no one has the right to threaten or assault. There should be severe consequences for anyone that does that. Multi year out lifetime bans at gaa level and whatever the authorities throw at the person as well.
The club should face consequences also but there could be a high level of mitigation if they cooperate fully and are seen to fully back the ref and potentially start a respect education program at club level. I think it is important to state that every club has 1 or 2 head cases but as long as the club dies the right thing punishment should not be too bad." you make a lot of sense in what you say - it does come back to clubs to back referees and officials. in Wexford a few years ago referee numbers dropped by about 30%. at the same time the clubs refused to reduce the no of rounds in the championships from 3 to 5. linesmen are only appointed for Senior and intermediate games. They are appointed for all county finals. there is a huge shortage of referees and not only referees but umpires also. i believe that every club that puts out an adult team should be putting out a ref per team. and that clubs should also be asked to identify umpires and linesmen also that would be trained independently. if there were a cohort of 10 -15 people in every club that had a working knowledge of the rules and were prepared to stand up for them and the referees that would be a big help. often a lot of criticism of referees comes from people who dont know the rules.
Referees aren't perfect and there are times when criticism is justified (not assault or verbal abuse). but there is a lot of times when it isn't and education of the public in general would help. but it's only one of a number of solutions.
bystanderbill (Wexford) - Posts: 26 - 01/11/2023 15:41:15
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Replying To Thejampot: "If the referee (person that's assaulted) doesn't make complaints then nothing can or will be done. If they do then the person that committed the assault can be dealt with. On till that happens nothing will change. Simply as that. How did the case in Rosscomm ever end up? Never heard to much more about it. Some of these people need to made an example of to show others what will happen if this continues" Still going through the courts.
reffingmad (Roscommon) - Posts: 371 - 02/11/2023 08:33:34
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Replying To Magpie2: "My mistake killingfields. It was my understanding that referees were examined. Maybe that's why we have poor quality officials throughout the organisation.
It just seems strange to me that a lad attends a few courses without any sort of assessment and is then told to get out there and take charge of 30 players.
In every walk of life nowadays, voluntary or paid there is an exam or diploma course. Of course referees will learn the more games they get but imo they should never be let loose on a playing field without qualifications. Courses and seminars are right and good but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person has a basic grasp of the rules.
I suppose the way it's going the gaa are glad to get anyone to take the whistle." It doesnt seem strange to me.
Knowing the rules on paper is fine but if you dont know how to put management of the rules into practice and when to let something go/pull it up then its no good just knowing rule book.
Are coaches expected to pass a test to complete a coaching course. no.
referees can only learn through refereeing games. starting at lowest levels and moving up as necessary following assessment and coaching from retired/more experienced referees.
Rugby has a far better system for referees. it doesnt have a laws test before refs take the field and its better.
you shouldnt be expected to know all the rules. you learn as you go.
you start refereeing at under 12/14 level and move up to u16/minor and then adult junior and senior as you are assessed and receive feedback based on your performances refereeing at under 12/14/16
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 02/11/2023 10:45:26
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Replying To KillingFields: "It doesnt seem strange to me.
Knowing the rules on paper is fine but if you dont know how to put management of the rules into practice and when to let something go/pull it up then its no good just knowing rule book.
Are coaches expected to pass a test to complete a coaching course. no.
referees can only learn through refereeing games. starting at lowest levels and moving up as necessary following assessment and coaching from retired/more experienced referees.
Rugby has a far better system for referees. it doesnt have a laws test before refs take the field and its better.
you shouldnt be expected to know all the rules. you learn as you go.
you start refereeing at under 12/14 level and move up to u16/minor and then adult junior and senior as you are assessed and receive feedback based on your performances refereeing at under 12/14/16" Apparently there is an exam for referees. In wexford there is anyway. If you read bystanderbill post of 31/10, he says that referees in Wexford are expected to get 80% pass rate.
Surely we are not the only county to set exams.
Unless of course the above named poster is wrong
Although I'm sure he didn't pluck a percentage of 80% out of thin air.
As you and I said learning as you go along is the way to go but I believe that learning the rules before and during their early years of refereeing and to have exam credentials in their back pocket would improve decision making on the field.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 287 - 02/11/2023 12:02:46
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