National Forum

Should The Leagues Be Re-Tiered?

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I simply gave an example where you could split the divisions based on where teams finished the league in 2022. I think they look quite fair overall, prevents a closed shop, and gives weaker teams a chance to play stronger teams to bring them on. Is that what we want in this, a stronger game overall where we bring all teams along, rather than cutting them adrift or letting others yoyo?"
The league ranking of 1 to 32 is very clear without any ambiguity. The vast majority of the GAA respect it. It has seen the league rise to the status of Championship qualification. Once upon a time we had All-Ireland qualifiers, and we still have this year. Next year onwards we will have league qualifiers. A new status for this league format which is established and respected.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 06/04/2022 10:32:04    2409911

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The league ranking of 1 to 32 is very clear without any ambiguity. The vast majority of the GAA respect it. It has seen the league rise to the status of Championship qualification. Once upon a time we had All-Ireland qualifiers, and we still have this year. Next year onwards we will have league qualifiers. A new status for this league format which is established and respected."
You see you say this, but where have the vast majority agreed with it? I have just given an example of a scenario that would be fair and equitable. It is based on the latest league, and allows teams the opportunity to move up and down, qualify for Championship, and pit themselves against teams of their own level, and either a level just above or below. Which would help bring teams on. Those example divisions are very fair. I think we all know the reasons you don't want it. As the closed shop at the top suits the few teams. Why would turkeys vote for Christmas? But for the good of the game, something like this needs to happen. Otherwise we go to a 2 tier Championship, and then gap yawns even wider year on year. But the top teams will be ok, right?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 06/04/2022 11:14:37    2409922

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You see you say this, but where have the vast majority agreed with it? I have just given an example of a scenario that would be fair and equitable. It is based on the latest league, and allows teams the opportunity to move up and down, qualify for Championship, and pit themselves against teams of their own level, and either a level just above or below. Which would help bring teams on. Those example divisions are very fair. I think we all know the reasons you don't want it. As the closed shop at the top suits the few teams. Why would turkeys vote for Christmas? But for the good of the game, something like this needs to happen. Otherwise we go to a 2 tier Championship, and then gap yawns even wider year on year. But the top teams will be ok, right?"
We've had many close scares with relegation. Mayo, Tyrone and Dublin have all gotten caught. I want hurling to return to metric system. The 2A winner which is attainable for Kerry should be entering a 1B for teams 7 to 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 06/04/2022 11:56:49    2409938

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You see you say this, but where have the vast majority agreed with it? I have just given an example of a scenario that would be fair and equitable. It is based on the latest league, and allows teams the opportunity to move up and down, qualify for Championship, and pit themselves against teams of their own level, and either a level just above or below. Which would help bring teams on. Those example divisions are very fair. I think we all know the reasons you don't want it. As the closed shop at the top suits the few teams. Why would turkeys vote for Christmas? But for the good of the game, something like this needs to happen. Otherwise we go to a 2 tier Championship, and then gap yawns even wider year on year. But the top teams will be ok, right?"
I completely disagree with this. The league, as currently structured, is excellent. Every Div. 1 to 3 team is potentially in jeopardy (as shown by Dublin this year, Cavan and Tipp last year and lots of previous examples) and most teams have a reasonable chance of progression.
12 teams change division as opposed to 8 in the 2 x 16 divide so the current 4 x 8 structure is much more fluid and exciting. Teams in positions 7-10, 15-18 and 23-26 change position as opposed to positions 13-20 in the 2 x 16 structure. That structure would mean it would end up like the current Div. 1 hurling league where a significant number of teams would not be in any real danger (probably the top 8 to 10) and the bottom 6 to 8 teams in Div. 2 would have no reasonable chance of getting promoted. So there would be a large number of essentially meaningless (for one team at least) games towards the end of the league and limited interest.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 104 - 06/04/2022 12:10:53    2409941

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "I completely disagree with this. The league, as currently structured, is excellent. Every Div. 1 to 3 team is potentially in jeopardy (as shown by Dublin this year, Cavan and Tipp last year and lots of previous examples) and most teams have a reasonable chance of progression.
12 teams change division as opposed to 8 in the 2 x 16 divide so the current 4 x 8 structure is much more fluid and exciting. Teams in positions 7-10, 15-18 and 23-26 change position as opposed to positions 13-20 in the 2 x 16 structure. That structure would mean it would end up like the current Div. 1 hurling league where a significant number of teams would not be in any real danger (probably the top 8 to 10) and the bottom 6 to 8 teams in Div. 2 would have no reasonable chance of getting promoted. So there would be a large number of essentially meaningless (for one team at least) games towards the end of the league and limited interest."
How is a Division1 team in jeopardy? If a team has an absolute nightmare of a season and lose every game by a cricket score, they'll still be in the Tier 1 Championship at the end of it.

And I can't see how there would be any more meaningless games than there already are.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 06/04/2022 13:08:31    2409955

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Replying To legendzxix:  "We've had many close scares with relegation. Mayo, Tyrone and Dublin have all gotten caught. I want hurling to return to metric system. The 2A winner which is attainable for Kerry should be entering a 1B for teams 7 to 12."
Scares sure, but nothing major. You're still up there, as the top teams will continue to be. You're just happy with your closed shop as it suits those there

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 06/04/2022 13:09:22    2409957

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "How is a Division1 team in jeopardy? If a team has an absolute nightmare of a season and lose every game by a cricket score, they'll still be in the Tier 1 Championship at the end of it.

And I can't see how there would be any more meaningless games than there already are."
They're in jeopardy of relegation to Div. 2 and from 2024, theoretically, they could lose their place immediately in the Sam Maguire as only seven league teams (1-6 in Div. 1 and the winner of Div. 2) will be guaranteed a place. That is unlikely to happen but being in Div. 2 the following year creates further jeopardy for them, both short and medium-term. There was huge interest this year (as is the case most years) in the Div. 1 relegation battle with so many teams in danger. No team wants to willingly go down no matter how they try to spin it.

There are very few meaningless matches in the current league structure. Apart from Div. 4, where there is no relegation, every year most teams have still something to play for in the final league round.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 104 - 06/04/2022 14:32:06    2409979

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Scares sure, but nothing major. You're still up there, as the top teams will continue to be. You're just happy with your closed shop as it suits those there"
Hurling Division 1 is a closed shop. Football Division 1 is savage. They are all scrapping for survival first. Anything else is a bonus. Any 2 of 5 teams could have been relegated on the final day.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 06/04/2022 15:02:05    2409986

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Wasn't it 13 of the 16 Round 7 games were relevant?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1456 - 06/04/2022 15:04:22    2409987

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "They're in jeopardy of relegation to Div. 2 and from 2024, theoretically, they could lose their place immediately in the Sam Maguire as only seven league teams (1-6 in Div. 1 and the winner of Div. 2) will be guaranteed a place. That is unlikely to happen but being in Div. 2 the following year creates further jeopardy for them, both short and medium-term. There was huge interest this year (as is the case most years) in the Div. 1 relegation battle with so many teams in danger. No team wants to willingly go down no matter how they try to spin it.

There are very few meaningless matches in the current league structure. Apart from Div. 4, where there is no relegation, every year most teams have still something to play for in the final league round."
But you're making my point. Nobody was at risk in Division 1 which is what I replied. My example would have 4 teams at risk, the bottom teams in the a and b divisions, and they are at an immediate risk, not just the flooring year. This is literally the point I'm trying to make

And with the 2 teams at the top of both battling for the title, you'd likely find that every team has something to play for, or at least games not being a dead rubber. It makes far more sense than a closed off Division 1, where only the occasional team gets a chance to go up to play before usually being relegated down again instantly.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 06/04/2022 16:50:16    2410008

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Wasn't it 13 of the 16 Round 7 games were relevant?"
And with teams also battling for titles over the 2 division structures, and those trying to avoid relegation, you'll likely find a high proportion of games would be relevant in it too.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 06/04/2022 16:51:46    2410009

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Hurling Division 1 is a closed shop. Football Division 1 is savage. They are all scrapping for survival first. Anything else is a bonus. Any 2 of 5 teams could have been relegated on the final day."
I know it's savage. That's the point. Anyone going up gets spat back out usually instantly. This puts those teams further ahead. I can tell why you like it, as it pushes your own counties standards. But it widens the gap to the others. You too are making my point for me. We need teams mixing otherwise we're on the path for serious issues where we have a setup for the few elite counties and the others are forgotten. Of course you're on favour of this, why wouldn't you be?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 06/04/2022 16:55:04    2410010

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I know it's savage. That's the point. Anyone going up gets spat back out usually instantly. This puts those teams further ahead. I can tell why you like it, as it pushes your own counties standards. But it widens the gap to the others. You too are making my point for me. We need teams mixing otherwise we're on the path for serious issues where we have a setup for the few elite counties and the others are forgotten. Of course you're on favour of this, why wouldn't you be?"
I think you make a good point about newly promoted teams struggling to gain a foothold in division 1.

Three divisions would give a better balance..

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1417 - 06/04/2022 20:30:22    2410041

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I know it's savage. That's the point. Anyone going up gets spat back out usually instantly. This puts those teams further ahead. I can tell why you like it, as it pushes your own counties standards. But it widens the gap to the others. You too are making my point for me. We need teams mixing otherwise we're on the path for serious issues where we have a setup for the few elite counties and the others are forgotten. Of course you're on favour of this, why wouldn't you be?"
The Football League is sporting fairness. Everyone earns their league ranking on merit.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 07/04/2022 08:48:16    2410059

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I know it's savage. That's the point. Anyone going up gets spat back out usually instantly. This puts those teams further ahead. I can tell why you like it, as it pushes your own counties standards. But it widens the gap to the others. You too are making my point for me. We need teams mixing otherwise we're on the path for serious issues where we have a setup for the few elite counties and the others are forgotten. Of course you're on favour of this, why wouldn't you be?"
This debate needs to put to bed . Restructuring ( at Division 1 & 2 level anyhow) is not going to happen, shouldn't happen and doesn't need to happen.
Teams in Division 2 can develop to a Division 1 level of quality if they have the talent and do the right things. Dont tell me that teams are in Division 1 just because they get the quality games in Division 1. If you forced Kerry or a few other counties in Division 1 to play in Division 2 or 3 for 5 years , you would still be guaranteed that in the 6th year they would come back up to Division 1 and be at the top table , and that in the same 5 years their championship standard ( or indeed overall standard) would not regress. Similarly if you elevated some of the Division 2 or 3 teams to Division 1 and allowed them to play there for 5 years regardless of league position , I honestly dont think it would raise their standards - in fact I have a personal opinion that it would set them back. Currently teams in the lower divisions tend to be competitive at their levels and they always have in the back of their mind ( due either to idealism or delusion) that they could shock one of the big guns come championship. But if lads have played 4 or 5 league games already against the top teams and got 15 point + hammerings in them all, they are smart enough to know that turning this around come championship is not realistic , and all the so called "development" from the experience of these games wont help bridge this gap in the short or long term.
Another poster referenced the merging of divisions 3 and 4 into a 3A /3B and there may be some merit in this as it would give all teams a chance to get to Div 2 before championship, but even this suggestion has cons as well as pros.

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 845 - 07/04/2022 09:45:17    2410065

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Replying To anotheralias:  "This debate needs to put to bed . Restructuring ( at Division 1 & 2 level anyhow) is not going to happen, shouldn't happen and doesn't need to happen.
Teams in Division 2 can develop to a Division 1 level of quality if they have the talent and do the right things. Dont tell me that teams are in Division 1 just because they get the quality games in Division 1. If you forced Kerry or a few other counties in Division 1 to play in Division 2 or 3 for 5 years , you would still be guaranteed that in the 6th year they would come back up to Division 1 and be at the top table , and that in the same 5 years their championship standard ( or indeed overall standard) would not regress. Similarly if you elevated some of the Division 2 or 3 teams to Division 1 and allowed them to play there for 5 years regardless of league position , I honestly dont think it would raise their standards - in fact I have a personal opinion that it would set them back. Currently teams in the lower divisions tend to be competitive at their levels and they always have in the back of their mind ( due either to idealism or delusion) that they could shock one of the big guns come championship. But if lads have played 4 or 5 league games already against the top teams and got 15 point + hammerings in them all, they are smart enough to know that turning this around come championship is not realistic , and all the so called "development" from the experience of these games wont help bridge this gap in the short or long term.
Another poster referenced the merging of divisions 3 and 4 into a 3A /3B and there may be some merit in this as it would give all teams a chance to get to Div 2 before championship, but even this suggestion has cons as well as pros."
All well said.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 07/04/2022 10:38:29    2410083

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Replying To Ban:  "I think you make a good point about newly promoted teams struggling to gain a foothold in division 1.

Three divisions would give a better balance.."
3 divisions lined up with 3 championship tiers could be interesting.

12,10,10 in each tier.

League single round robins. 2 up 2 down moving into championship.

Championship 2 groups of 6 in tier 1, 2 groups of 5 in the other tiers.

Champions of the lower tier plays in the higher league the following season.

Bottom of each group play off for relegation.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 07/04/2022 16:44:43    2410179

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Replying To Whammo86:  "3 divisions lined up with 3 championship tiers could be interesting.

12,10,10 in each tier.

League single round robins. 2 up 2 down moving into championship.

Championship 2 groups of 6 in tier 1, 2 groups of 5 in the other tiers.

Champions of the lower tier plays in the higher league the following season.

Bottom of each group play off for relegation."
16:16 is a fair split for the championship. Up to 12 counties will be competitive in the Tailteann Cup. Football might have stumbled on a good long term format.
Munster hurling, 5 into 3 doesn't go! The Top 16 in football should be a fair enough spread. The 16 in the Tailteann Cup will also be a fair spread. Sligo and Leitrim who missed out on promotion to Division 3 this year are capable of winning the Tailteann Cup.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 07/04/2022 17:25:59    2410187

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Replying To legendzxix:  "16:16 is a fair split for the championship. Up to 12 counties will be competitive in the Tailteann Cup. Football might have stumbled on a good long term format.
Munster hurling, 5 into 3 doesn't go! The Top 16 in football should be a fair enough spread. The 16 in the Tailteann Cup will also be a fair spread. Sligo and Leitrim who missed out on promotion to Division 3 this year are capable of winning the Tailteann Cup."
Yeah I'm not against the format broadly. I was just suggesting something I theoretically thought would be a separate exciting structure but would also need for the Provincials to be disbanded which won't happen anytime soon.

Really it was a very hypothetical suggestion.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 07/04/2022 18:36:56    2410191

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I'm not against the format broadly. I was just suggesting something I theoretically thought would be a separate exciting structure but would also need for the Provincials to be disbanded which won't happen anytime soon.

Really it was a very hypothetical suggestion."
There is a lot of merit in your suggestion. Teams 13 to 16 however will want to be at the top table. The top 12 are happy for them to be there. All the votes will flow that way.
Is there only 1 or 2 counties who probably won't be challenging for the Tailteann Cup? New York and Kilkenny are competing in the All-Ireland Junior Championship this year against 2 teams from across the Irish Sea. If 1 or 2 counties are struggling in the Tailteann Cup, discussions should be had about the suitability of the Junior Championship as a more appropriate level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 08/04/2022 09:52:29    2410216

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