National Forum

Should The Leagues Be Re-Tiered?

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So now that the League group games have finished for this year, and promotion and relegation has been sorted, should we think about re-Tiering the Leagues seeing as they will be tied into Championship even more from next year?

Going back to Divisions 1a and 1b, and 2a and 2b might make a little more sense if we look at how they are splitting the Championships post provincial into 16 for Sam Maguire, and 16 for Tailteann Cup. This essentially gives every team a chance to get into the Top 16 through the League every year. You could have playoffs between the bottom 4 sides in Division 1 to decide relegation, and the top 4 sides in Division 2 to decide promotion to replace them. You'd get your 2 groups of 16 from there and everyone has a chance to get into it. You could even stipulate that the Division 2 League final winner is guaranteed a place, as right now they're not. At the moment, the 2 promoted teams ranked 15 and 16 can still lose out if a Division 3 or 4 team makes their provincial final. Just a thought anyway...

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 30/03/2022 11:14:43    2408292

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No!!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1454 - 30/03/2022 12:39:03    2408324

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or.... and bear with me here... don't!

LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 478 - 30/03/2022 12:54:00    2408332

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "So now that the League group games have finished for this year, and promotion and relegation has been sorted, should we think about re-Tiering the Leagues seeing as they will be tied into Championship even more from next year?

Going back to Divisions 1a and 1b, and 2a and 2b might make a little more sense if we look at how they are splitting the Championships post provincial into 16 for Sam Maguire, and 16 for Tailteann Cup. This essentially gives every team a chance to get into the Top 16 through the League every year. You could have playoffs between the bottom 4 sides in Division 1 to decide relegation, and the top 4 sides in Division 2 to decide promotion to replace them. You'd get your 2 groups of 16 from there and everyone has a chance to get into it. You could even stipulate that the Division 2 League final winner is guaranteed a place, as right now they're not. At the moment, the 2 promoted teams ranked 15 and 16 can still lose out if a Division 3 or 4 team makes their provincial final. Just a thought anyway..."
It's not a bad idea.

I don't think it'll come in though. The 4 tiers of 8 were deemed popular when they were coming up with this system and is why they didn't move towards 2 tiers for the league, which was somewhat on the table.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 30/03/2022 12:55:35    2408333

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A double NO!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1941 - 30/03/2022 12:59:37    2408335

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's not a bad idea.

I don't think it'll come in though. The 4 tiers of 8 were deemed popular when they were coming up with this system and is why they didn't move towards 2 tiers for the league, which was somewhat on the table."
Oh I don't think it'll come in either, just an observation if we are tiering the Championship, might be no harm to link the leagues properly to know where we are. Stops a bit of a pulling the ladder up behind them in Division 1. Every team is in with a chance of promotion to Sam, or relegation to Tailteann in the one season. Keeps things interesting and means we know who is the top 16 and bottom 16. Anyway, just an idea. I do recall this 2 division system pre 2008 wasn't liked as much

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 30/03/2022 13:11:08    2408341

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Oh I don't think it'll come in either, just an observation if we are tiering the Championship, might be no harm to link the leagues properly to know where we are. Stops a bit of a pulling the ladder up behind them in Division 1. Every team is in with a chance of promotion to Sam, or relegation to Tailteann in the one season. Keeps things interesting and means we know who is the top 16 and bottom 16. Anyway, just an idea. I do recall this 2 division system pre 2008 wasn't liked as much"
Ideally it would be top 15 in the League plus the Tailteann champions.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 30/03/2022 13:31:55    2408353

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If the flawed Proposal B championship was voted in last year i believe Divisions 1a and 1b would be needed for that to make sense.

Current league is fine in regards to the green format that comes into play next year.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 3772 - 30/03/2022 13:35:47    2408357

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "So now that the League group games have finished for this year, and promotion and relegation has been sorted, should we think about re-Tiering the Leagues seeing as they will be tied into Championship even more from next year?

Going back to Divisions 1a and 1b, and 2a and 2b might make a little more sense if we look at how they are splitting the Championships post provincial into 16 for Sam Maguire, and 16 for Tailteann Cup. This essentially gives every team a chance to get into the Top 16 through the League every year. You could have playoffs between the bottom 4 sides in Division 1 to decide relegation, and the top 4 sides in Division 2 to decide promotion to replace them. You'd get your 2 groups of 16 from there and everyone has a chance to get into it. You could even stipulate that the Division 2 League final winner is guaranteed a place, as right now they're not. At the moment, the 2 promoted teams ranked 15 and 16 can still lose out if a Division 3 or 4 team makes their provincial final. Just a thought anyway..."
I know this system was introduced in 90s, whether it was an influence or not there were a plethora of new provincial and all Ireland champions. I think Leitrim stint in the 1a and 1b system helped improve the standard of the team, giving them the opportunity to play better teams on regular basis. I think by the time it was phased out the standard was as even as the nineties and there ended up being bad beatings for some of the weaker teams. I think it would work well at the minute but would have been a disaster a few years back. When the Dubs were running amok.

Backheel (Leitrim) - Posts: 134 - 30/03/2022 13:45:13    2408361

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The 4 divisions are working fine let it be. The only tweaking needed is for hurling to return to 1A and 1B.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 30/03/2022 14:31:37    2408379

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Replying To Backheel:  "I know this system was introduced in 90s, whether it was an influence or not there were a plethora of new provincial and all Ireland champions. I think Leitrim stint in the 1a and 1b system helped improve the standard of the team, giving them the opportunity to play better teams on regular basis. I think by the time it was phased out the standard was as even as the nineties and there ended up being bad beatings for some of the weaker teams. I think it would work well at the minute but would have been a disaster a few years back. When the Dubs were running amok."
I think that type of league is needed again if the GAA are interested in reducing the standard of football between the stronger and weaker counties in the longterm. I don't think a few counties yoyoing between Division 3 and 2 and between Tailteann and Sam Maguire will try to achieve that.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7384 - 30/03/2022 14:47:08    2408387

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no

mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1807 - 30/03/2022 14:56:50    2408390

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The 4 divisions are working fine let it be. The only tweaking needed is for hurling to return to 1A and 1B."
Are they though? You have an elite way out in front in Division 1, and you have some that are poor who are cut loose at the bottom of Division 4. The 4 Division system widens that gap in my opinion. If you has 2 tiers with a and b divisions at least those at the very bottom and those who flit between 2 and 3 at the moment might get a chance to be exposed to higher level teams and this can bring them on. The 4 Division setup works for those who it works well for, not really for many. My own county got up to Division 1 a few times, but came straight back down. Meath and Kildare got the same. It's like a closed shop. I think 16 teams split over 2 divisions would expose teams to a good level and bring them on without risk of instant relegation.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 30/03/2022 15:01:25    2408393

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I like the fellas with just the no answers. Great debate you've brought to the table. You've won me over! Any reasons why though?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 30/03/2022 15:02:30    2408394

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Are they though? You have an elite way out in front in Division 1, and you have some that are poor who are cut loose at the bottom of Division 4. The 4 Division system widens that gap in my opinion. If you has 2 tiers with a and b divisions at least those at the very bottom and those who flit between 2 and 3 at the moment might get a chance to be exposed to higher level teams and this can bring them on. The 4 Division setup works for those who it works well for, not really for many. My own county got up to Division 1 a few times, but came straight back down. Meath and Kildare got the same. It's like a closed shop. I think 16 teams split over 2 divisions would expose teams to a good level and bring them on without risk of instant relegation."
Division 1 is tough and that's the way it is. Division 2 teams have gotten to All-Ireland finals so it is definitely providing competitive games for championship. The league's reward has always been, the higher you go, the more competitive games you get ahead of championship. The league is an equal opportunities provider!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 30/03/2022 17:17:35    2408468

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Are they though? You have an elite way out in front in Division 1, and you have some that are poor who are cut loose at the bottom of Division 4. The 4 Division system widens that gap in my opinion. If you has 2 tiers with a and b divisions at least those at the very bottom and those who flit between 2 and 3 at the moment might get a chance to be exposed to higher level teams and this can bring them on. The 4 Division setup works for those who it works well for, not really for many. My own county got up to Division 1 a few times, but came straight back down. Meath and Kildare got the same. It's like a closed shop. I think 16 teams split over 2 divisions would expose teams to a good level and bring them on without risk of instant relegation."
I do get where you're coming from with this.

4 divisions of 8 isn't great for qualifying for this competition.

Division 1 teams practically guaranteed, the promoted teams from division 3 not even guaranteed a place.
Division 4 teams cut a bit adrift.

Division 2 is the only division where there's that qualification battle properly happening.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 30/03/2022 18:46:53    2408491

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It's working fine the way it is

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 269 - 30/03/2022 19:04:48    2408495

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There should be three divisions instead of four. 10, 12, 10 teams in them. Scrap the fbd league etc to allow for extra games. Have promotion/relegation playoff games for the third best and third worst teams in the division

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 30/03/2022 19:51:59    2408506

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Division 1 is tough and that's the way it is. Division 2 teams have gotten to All-Ireland finals so it is definitely providing competitive games for championship. The league's reward has always been, the higher you go, the more competitive games you get ahead of championship. The league is an equal opportunities provider!"
But that's literally my point though? And I give examples of how it's like a closed shop in Division 1 and doesn't allow for much mixing and exposure to top teams to bring others on. When is the last time a team from outside the usual Division 1 teams have made the final? It's my point, it's like a closed shop, and the ladder has been pulled up. they spur each other on, and they get away from the others. Any who get a chance to get into Division 1 usually gets spat back down quite quickly. The set up is for the few, not the many.

It was just an idea anyway. If it's good enough to have 2 tiers of 16 in Championship, why not have them properly linked in the League, which is the one who tells us which one you play in. By any metric, it makes more sense, apart from the small few who the current system suits.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2411 - 31/03/2022 08:06:36    2408520

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Absolutely not. The leagues are really good at the minute with high levels of competitiveness. Restructuring would dilute this competitiveness.
The one division this year that was a bit lop sided this year was division 2 with Derry, Galway and Roscommon beating all the others ( exception of Ros v Clare draw) . If the other 5 teams in Div 2 cant put it up to the top 3 above, then whats the value of them playing Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo?
The bottom line is the current structure provides the best chance of competitive games , which is the best way to improve. Playing teams who are vastly superior will not do anything for any team. Teams try to develop in their own tier and try to become the best at that level, then progress to the next.

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 845 - 31/03/2022 09:14:45    2408532

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