National Forum

Dublins Demise

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "It's clear to see that Dublin have rejoined the pack somewhat, but to suggest their total demise would be foolhardy in the extreme. Do Dublin need another League title? No. They'll be looking to reach the end of the league in midtable with a injury free squad approaching full fitness. A first choice Dublin 15 is still a serious proposition for any team. They may not have the same quality supporting cast as before but no team with serious All Ireland aspirations will be taking them lightly."
I think you're right Lock but personnel alone is not the problem. They were rudderless on Sat employing suicidal tactics. The slow laborious build up renders the inside forwards redundant. Imagine Bernard or Paddy in the corners for this Dublin team. They wouldn't get a sniff of a pass as we just hand-pass around the 45. I still think we have the players to do damage in the Summer but rumour has it that Con has left, he and Mannion are huge blows to the forward lines and our tactics are awful. I think we'll battle our way out of Leinster, perhaps take a scalp in the AI series and then be taken out by a top 4 side.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4703 - 21/02/2022 15:27:43    2401641

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Replying To Joxer:  "You were very quick to log out of that account KB. Fair play to ye. Up the Dubs!! :)"
for the record im not KerryforSam21.

kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 21/02/2022 15:51:04    2401651

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Replying To Joxer:  "I think you're right Lock but personnel alone is not the problem. They were rudderless on Sat employing suicidal tactics. The slow laborious build up renders the inside forwards redundant. Imagine Bernard or Paddy in the corners for this Dublin team. They wouldn't get a sniff of a pass as we just hand-pass around the 45. I still think we have the players to do damage in the Summer but rumour has it that Con has left, he and Mannion are huge blows to the forward lines and our tactics are awful. I think we'll battle our way out of Leinster, perhaps take a scalp in the AI series and then be taken out by a top 4 side."
The backbone of the great team was Cluxton. He was their leader from the back and I think the other 14 played freely knowing he was there behind them. Always thought the only way to beat Dubs at that time was to try and pressure Cluxton as if the other players seen him under pressure they twitched a bit. Now no Cluxton so maybe players making mistakes which is easily rectified.They will still be there come JULY touch wood.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2025 - 21/02/2022 15:58:12    2401657

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for the record im not Kingdom Boy.

kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 21/02/2022 16:18:08    2401672

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Replying To kerry4sam21:  "for the record im not KerryforSam21."
:D

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4446 - 21/02/2022 16:21:50    2401675

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Replying To Joxer:  "I think you're right Lock but personnel alone is not the problem. They were rudderless on Sat employing suicidal tactics. The slow laborious build up renders the inside forwards redundant. Imagine Bernard or Paddy in the corners for this Dublin team. They wouldn't get a sniff of a pass as we just hand-pass around the 45. I still think we have the players to do damage in the Summer but rumour has it that Con has left, he and Mannion are huge blows to the forward lines and our tactics are awful. I think we'll battle our way out of Leinster, perhaps take a scalp in the AI series and then be taken out by a top 4 side."
Heard the Con rumours too.. reckon it's pure nonsense but IF he has walked and we're looking at himself, Jack Mc and Mannion all unavailable (while all in their primes) then fingers have to be pointed at management. Under Jim Gavin there was rarely a peep out of the camp and certainly no rumours of fallouts etc. Seems to be the exact opposite under Dessie!

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 21/02/2022 16:31:13    2401681

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Replying To Joxer:  "I think you're right Lock but personnel alone is not the problem. They were rudderless on Sat employing suicidal tactics. The slow laborious build up renders the inside forwards redundant. Imagine Bernard or Paddy in the corners for this Dublin team. They wouldn't get a sniff of a pass as we just hand-pass around the 45. I still think we have the players to do damage in the Summer but rumour has it that Con has left, he and Mannion are huge blows to the forward lines and our tactics are awful. I think we'll battle our way out of Leinster, perhaps take a scalp in the AI series and then be taken out by a top 4 side."
I've heard that Callaghan has been asked to join the hurling panel, but that wouldn't be the first time!

He would be some addition if he was anything like in the form he was with Cuala and the under 21s a few years back. Hurlers badly need a forward of that type.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2668 - 21/02/2022 17:19:42    2401697

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Replying To Joxer:  "I think you're right Lock but personnel alone is not the problem. They were rudderless on Sat employing suicidal tactics. The slow laborious build up renders the inside forwards redundant. Imagine Bernard or Paddy in the corners for this Dublin team. They wouldn't get a sniff of a pass as we just hand-pass around the 45. I still think we have the players to do damage in the Summer but rumour has it that Con has left, he and Mannion are huge blows to the forward lines and our tactics are awful. I think we'll battle our way out of Leinster, perhaps take a scalp in the AI series and then be taken out by a top 4 side."
Joxer. Is Cluxton a bigger loss than Gavin or any of the top forwards?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7390 - 21/02/2022 17:26:29    2401698

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Again I want all posters to know here that "Kerry4sam 21" is a phoney poster who stalks the Kerrygaa home forum. He takes decent posters posts and copies them verbatum on hoganstand forum. He or she icannot be trusted.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 21/02/2022 17:57:08    2401708

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Dublin, Donegal and Monaghan of the division 1 teams are not fulfilling their full potential because their management are not good enough, simple as. Dublin put out their best possible team on Saturday (maybe with Cooper if fully ready). When the game was up he brought on a few young lads, then used the excuse afterwards they were still in experimental mode. They were beat long before that. With the talent they have they should not be in a relegation battle, like Monaghan and Donegal
IMO

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1045 - 21/02/2022 18:13:28    2401715

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Replying To Joxer:  "I think you're right Lock but personnel alone is not the problem. They were rudderless on Sat employing suicidal tactics. The slow laborious build up renders the inside forwards redundant. Imagine Bernard or Paddy in the corners for this Dublin team. They wouldn't get a sniff of a pass as we just hand-pass around the 45. I still think we have the players to do damage in the Summer but rumour has it that Con has left, he and Mannion are huge blows to the forward lines and our tactics are awful. I think we'll battle our way out of Leinster, perhaps take a scalp in the AI series and then be taken out by a top 4 side."
Ah lad don't chat to me about slow laborious buildup and lateral passing. Our lads seem to be caught up in a similar infinite loop. Very frustrating to watch so I can only imagine what it must be for the likes of Paddy McBrearty and all the other inside forwards.

I've heard from a couple of different sources now that all may not be well inside the Dublin camp. Whether there's any truth to that I don't know.

It's hard to see Dublin not winning Leinster. Kildare are most likely but are maybe a year too early. Dublin will be in the quarters. But maybe a hungry team with momentum and hunger could do them over at that point?

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9190 - 21/02/2022 19:00:12    2401719

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Replying To ahsure.:  "Special team and will always have a special place in my heart stopping Mayo year after year to land the major.

Can't help but feel this thread may be a tad premature though, no AI was ever won in February."
Now now! Hope yer messing on the Mayo comment! The vast majority of Galway GAA people I know over the years wanted Mayo to win one (just the one, mind :-). Dublin haven't gone away, a powerhouse squad still and of course with immense resources behind them. They'll be firmly in the mix later this year. Great that the championship seems so open again.

togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 912 - 21/02/2022 19:18:32    2401720

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Replying To kerry4sam21:  "for the record im not KerryforSam21."
Getting confused lad?!!!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12227 - 21/02/2022 20:30:36    2401731

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Replying To Joxer:  ""proof that management are a big part of the team, on occasion more than 50%"

Yeah it's a funny one because all of the "experts" have been telling us for the past decade that it was money and population that created the best team of all time. They seem to have crawled back under their rock at present. Now we're hearing that it was management. I wonder could it have been down to just a brilliant set of hardworking and talented players. But I would write this Dublin team off at you're peril. Playing kids in dreadful conditions in Tralee and pulling the jerseys off them in February is a different prospect to playing a full strength Dublin team in Summer in front of 80,000 at HQ. I think there is a sting left in the Dubs yet."
That poster Joxer that uses the name Kerry4sam 21 is not a Kerry poster. Although I can't say for certain where is from but I'd be fairly confident the poster is closer to you than you think. Now the poster is obsessed with Kerry alright and constantly robs posts from the Kerry home forum and posts them on here and then adds in an extra few lines. This poster is just a Wum.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 21/02/2022 20:37:34    2401732

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Replying To TrueBlue35:  "Heard the Con rumours too.. reckon it's pure nonsense but IF he has walked and we're looking at himself, Jack Mc and Mannion all unavailable (while all in their primes) then fingers have to be pointed at management. Under Jim Gavin there was rarely a peep out of the camp and certainly no rumours of fallouts etc. Seems to be the exact opposite under Dessie!"
Look to be fair to Dessie he landed a hard gig in a way and people have to go easy on him. In every sport its impossible to keep up the highest standards to stay at the top. Even if Gavin was in charge there would have been a slip anyway. As for players not playing. Paul Mannion has stated he has great respect for Dessie but does nt want to play County at the moment. Jack Mac stated he walked away as the fun had gone out of it (and he stated that under Gavin). It's hard to stay at the top. Remember Mannion Jack Mac Connolly and Rory O'Carroll all took time out under Gavin s stewardship. People need to be realistic here. Give Dessie a break.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 22/02/2022 08:07:42    2401752

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Look to be fair to Dessie he landed a hard gig in a way and people have to go easy on him. In every sport its impossible to keep up the highest standards to stay at the top. Even if Gavin was in charge there would have been a slip anyway. As for players not playing. Paul Mannion has stated he has great respect for Dessie but does nt want to play County at the moment. Jack Mac stated he walked away as the fun had gone out of it (and he stated that under Gavin). It's hard to stay at the top. Remember Mannion Jack Mac Connolly and Rory O'Carroll all took time out under Gavin s stewardship. People need to be realistic here. Give Dessie a break."
Yeah you only have to look at the soap opera Man Utd have become since Fergie left. People just assumed Utd would carry on as before with no impact to performances or titles being won. It's never easy to transition.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9190 - 22/02/2022 09:23:11    2401764

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Ah lad don't chat to me about slow laborious buildup and lateral passing. Our lads seem to be caught up in a similar infinite loop. Very frustrating to watch so I can only imagine what it must be for the likes of Paddy McBrearty and all the other inside forwards.

I've heard from a couple of different sources now that all may not be well inside the Dublin camp. Whether there's any truth to that I don't know.

It's hard to see Dublin not winning Leinster. Kildare are most likely but are maybe a year too early. Dublin will be in the quarters. But maybe a hungry team with momentum and hunger could do them over at that point?"
That's a good point about style of play. Donegal at their best were very efficient and disciplined in defence but could turn that into attack at great pace and had the finishers. Dublin began dogged and defensively with Gilroy, learned from Donegal in both 2011 and 2014 and hit on a pretty much unbeatable combination for a few years that as someone else said had become mostly muscle memory but had brilliant players to win on the down curve in 2020.


Tyrone have not been given the credit imho for taking the game to a different level. Their ability to turn over the ball and go route one is highly impressive. Even against Kildare (not slagging Kildare just in context of players and it being February) they showed enough of that to win.


Any team that persists as Dublin and others are doing - even Kerry for all the talk - with a overly cautious approach is not going to beat Tyrone on a good day. They'd still be my pick to win again. Armagh are another team and indeed Kildare who at least at are trying to match them tactically.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2668 - 22/02/2022 09:34:51    2401768

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Replying To Saynothing:  "The backbone of the great team was Cluxton. He was their leader from the back and I think the other 14 played freely knowing he was there behind them. Always thought the only way to beat Dubs at that time was to try and pressure Cluxton as if the other players seen him under pressure they twitched a bit. Now no Cluxton so maybe players making mistakes which is easily rectified.They will still be there come JULY touch wood."
Do not agree with you on Cluxton's importance. Monaghan and Tyrone have equally as good goalkeepers. Cluxton kicked the ball out to unmarked defenders 90% of time so obviously his success rate was high. Dublin had very good players all over the place who played as a unit Cluxton included. They were smart, athletic, high work rate, good decision making, obviously very fit and knew when to shoot with very accurate players all over the pitch -with the best free-taker in the game. Dublin has not become a bad team overnight and will be the team to beat in Leinster.

Players do retire even with great teams and Gavin knew when to call it a day leaving his announcement on such matters very late in the day. Dublin being beaten in first 3 matches in the league gives a great opportunity for the 'attention seekers' in our media to provide a platform for 'one liners'!

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 22/02/2022 10:32:47    2401793

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "That's a good point about style of play. Donegal at their best were very efficient and disciplined in defence but could turn that into attack at great pace and had the finishers. Dublin began dogged and defensively with Gilroy, learned from Donegal in both 2011 and 2014 and hit on a pretty much unbeatable combination for a few years that as someone else said had become mostly muscle memory but had brilliant players to win on the down curve in 2020.


Tyrone have not been given the credit imho for taking the game to a different level. Their ability to turn over the ball and go route one is highly impressive. Even against Kildare (not slagging Kildare just in context of players and it being February) they showed enough of that to win.


Any team that persists as Dublin and others are doing - even Kerry for all the talk - with a overly cautious approach is not going to beat Tyrone on a good day. They'd still be my pick to win again. Armagh are another team and indeed Kildare who at least at are trying to match them tactically."
As with a lot of things in life, getting the balance right is key. There are obviously times in matches when retaining possession is important. But a trend seems to have emerged lately, particularly watching my own county, where possession is king. It leads to players being overly cautious and risk averse. Taking a man on is almost unforgivable and God forbid anyone would attempt a good long kick pass inside.

As you say, Tyrone got things spot on last year. Dooher and Logan deserve great credit in my opinion. Even the most ardent of Tyrone fans probably didn't expect such a turnaround in their fortunes in year one. They probably expected a few teething problems for a year or two, until Tyrone moved away from Mickey Harte's cautious style. Make no mistake - when the Tyrone boys get fitter and sharper over the weeks and months ahead they are going to be the team to beat.

They'll have a fully operational McShane in 2022 as well don't forget.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9190 - 22/02/2022 10:38:03    2401795

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "As with a lot of things in life, getting the balance right is key. There are obviously times in matches when retaining possession is important. But a trend seems to have emerged lately, particularly watching my own county, where possession is king. It leads to players being overly cautious and risk averse. Taking a man on is almost unforgivable and God forbid anyone would attempt a good long kick pass inside.

As you say, Tyrone got things spot on last year. Dooher and Logan deserve great credit in my opinion. Even the most ardent of Tyrone fans probably didn't expect such a turnaround in their fortunes in year one. They probably expected a few teething problems for a year or two, until Tyrone moved away from Mickey Harte's cautious style. Make no mistake - when the Tyrone boys get fitter and sharper over the weeks and months ahead they are going to be the team to beat.

They'll have a fully operational McShane in 2022 as well don't forget."
Yeah that's a good summary. Apart from it being a terrible spectacle it is a ridiculous tactic when you are trailing by 4 or 5 points. It was incredible to see Dublin's slow hand passing counter attacking style on Sat when trailing. Pass around the 45, kick back to midfield, hand pass to the right wing, hand pass to the left wing and give opposition time to reset, have a pot shot from 35 yards out and send the ball 10 yards wide in a gale. Dublin's trademark under early Gavin was lightning counter attacks, with accurate foot passing, utilising pacy inside forwards. Right now we're just in with the basketball pack. I think Tyrone probably have the mix about right, defend as a group and break at pace transition with the foot more often than the hand.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4703 - 22/02/2022 13:41:24    2401867

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