National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To catch22:  "You were doing so well until that last bit.
Then you just became another God damn hippy."
Haha I'm a hippy at heart :-)

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 20:17:57    2280707

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Probably a pertinent question, has anyone actually seen any Cork fans with that flag in recent years?

Morty (Westmeath) - Posts: 111 - 13/06/2020 20:28:52    2280708

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "[quote=Htaem:  "You haven't answered this important question though:

Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?

Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.

It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.

Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)."
I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time.

I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag.

Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.
That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag....Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."


So it's 'perfectly reasonable and logical' to 'assume' that all Cork supporters who wave a Confederate flag are white supremacists and pro slavery?"]Read what I posted.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 20:32:18    2280710

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Replying To Htaem:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "[quote=Htaem:  "You haven't answered this important question though:

Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?

Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.

It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.

Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)."
I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time.

I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag.

Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
You're not answering the question I asked you Mes which is a pity but I know you have no intentions of answering the one I asked so 'we'll leave it there so' to quote a Cork legend :-)

All the best man."]I've answered it 3 times but just haven't given you the answer that you want.

There's a difference.

You can either engage with the points I've made or not. Up to you.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 20:35:09    2280712

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Replying To CC2020:  "Just reading through the comments and agree with yours.

Ken Burns 9 part 1990 series on the Civil War is excellent. With brilliant contributions on the Southern cause by Shelby Foote.

We can be very subjective in how we treat history and individuals. Abraham Lincoln is the common man's anti racist hero. However he liberated coloured people in a very politically opportune way. He believed a black man wasn't the equal of a white man. He didn't offer universal suffrage to freed slaves.

History is complexed, and pardon the reference, not a black and white issue. It's much more nuanced, looking at certain viewpoints from today's viewpoint is anachronistic.

We like to think we, the Irish were/are a tolerant people. However in the 1840s and 1850s in New Orleans and across the US the Irish gangs fought black gangs for work and dwellings. They were seen as the lowest two ethnicities arriving in America. But when Irish gangs beat up black gangs a blind eye was turned..why, because they were white. None of this is right but it happened.

Unfortunately Mitchell's views were held by many. And to the Lords in Westminster we Irish were depicted as apes in Punch and other publications. This was 1800s and other centuries thinking.

20 years ago working in a midlands town a work colleague, a lady, said to me the classic 'I'm not racist, but I'd never let a black doctor near me'!. I held my fire because she wasn't worth arguing with. But attitudes like that were commonplace up to recently.

Where do I stand on the confederate flag at GAA matches? I honestly don't know. But until I had a group of coloured people say look we have a problem with this, I wouldn't be getting offended on their behalf. These decisions shouldn't be made unilaterally by busy bodies who lack the education to make such decisions."
This is not about getting offended on other peoples' behalf, it is about deciding what is or isn't appropriate. It should not be about waiting for those who are offended to express their hurt, surely we can all be offended by symbols of oppression, if we have to wait for oppressed people to have an effective voice we will indeed be waiting. If we know it's wrong, no need to wait.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 170 - 13/06/2020 20:44:54    2280713

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Will the Cork county board chairperson confiscate Palestinian flags flown at GAA matches as well or will she just choose to ignore it as its not a popular bandwagon to jump on. We all know our politicians & wannabe politicians wont touch that as it would have all the left wing extremists & media slate the action. Many people are using this to enhance their political standing or for moving up the political ladder here & in Europe rather than for what the issue is about. Will the Rising Sun flag be next up, as the Japanese tortured many US soldiers who were persons of colour. What if the Protesant or Loyalist community start complaining about being offended by the Cork flag or by GAA clubs in Cork named after people who fought British rule, outlandish, not a bit, that is what is up next, where do you stop. You cannot & should not re write history.
This whole thing has been hijacked by people & organisations who are extremists as well, who want to impose their own ideals & silence others. This is not incidential, Peter Sutherland advised the EU to do its best to undermine national homogenity & within a few years, millions had entered Europe causing massive unrest & putting some countries on the point of collapse. This is part of social engineering & removal of national identities, lets not forget we are "very white", a disgraceful comment by the Taoiseach of this country.
Ireland has a massive history of sending people to the missions & have being one of the highest contributors per capita to famine relief schemes & recently were massive contributors to the Navajo/Hope native people, not the actions of a country rampant with racism. Majority of Irish people are not racist, but any debate or difference of opinion from what the extremists or the media want is shouted down & everyone labelled as racists. A good example of this is the way the Direct Provision set up was foisted on rural communities as we saw recently in Caherciveen & elsewhere. Communities ravaged economically & ignored for decades by our political class, foisting huge numbers of people on communities who didn't have the facilities to cater for these poor people and with no consultation. It was frustrating for all involved & does nothing for integration. However as soon as communities objected our pathetic Minister for Justice & political class & media shut down all debate & labelled the entire communities as alt right & fascists/racists, absolutely the opposite to what these people are.
If you want to sort out these issues, fine but when you silence all debate & through out labels such as alt right & racists, you alienate people are only ensuring division rather than integration. The political class & media here & in England are doing a good job of creating a divided society & the US which is a really cocked up society will some day end up in civil war. There is no sign of real leadership who will bring people together whilst respecting all sides & finding solutions to issues & definitely a lack of courage within media to do the same. this will all end badly the way things are going.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1002 - 13/06/2020 20:48:31    2280714

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Replying To Htaem:  "That's exactly what I was thinking, apparently you can only turn a good symbol bad but you can't turn a bad symbol good.

Anyway signs, symbols and flags etc mean a lot of different things to different people and I accept that fact, others don't. They stick one tag on it and that's it forever apparently."
Well if nothing else comes out of this thread today at least we've established that Htaem :-)

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 13/06/2020 21:04:54    2280718

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Replying To MesAmis:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "[quote=MesAmis:  "[quote=Htaem:  "You haven't answered this important question though:

Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?

Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.

It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.

Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)."
I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time.

I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag.

Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.
That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag....Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."


So it's 'perfectly reasonable and logical' to 'assume' that all Cork supporters who wave a Confederate flag are white supremacists and pro slavery?"]Read what I posted."]I've quoted what you posted. You seem to have a problem answering straight forward questions.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 979 - 13/06/2020 21:06:01    2280719

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Replying To Morty:  "Probably a pertinent question, has anyone actually seen any Cork fans with that flag in recent years?"
I believe it was banned already 3 years ago, so probably not.

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 362 - 13/06/2020 21:06:02    2280720

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Replying To moc.dna:  "Will the Cork county board chairperson confiscate Palestinian flags flown at GAA matches as well or will she just choose to ignore it as its not a popular bandwagon to jump on. We all know our politicians & wannabe politicians wont touch that as it would have all the left wing extremists & media slate the action. Many people are using this to enhance their political standing or for moving up the political ladder here & in Europe rather than for what the issue is about. Will the Rising Sun flag be next up, as the Japanese tortured many US soldiers who were persons of colour. What if the Protesant or Loyalist community start complaining about being offended by the Cork flag or by GAA clubs in Cork named after people who fought British rule, outlandish, not a bit, that is what is up next, where do you stop. You cannot & should not re write history.
This whole thing has been hijacked by people & organisations who are extremists as well, who want to impose their own ideals & silence others. This is not incidential, Peter Sutherland advised the EU to do its best to undermine national homogenity & within a few years, millions had entered Europe causing massive unrest & putting some countries on the point of collapse. This is part of social engineering & removal of national identities, lets not forget we are "very white", a disgraceful comment by the Taoiseach of this country.
Ireland has a massive history of sending people to the missions & have being one of the highest contributors per capita to famine relief schemes & recently were massive contributors to the Navajo/Hope native people, not the actions of a country rampant with racism. Majority of Irish people are not racist, but any debate or difference of opinion from what the extremists or the media want is shouted down & everyone labelled as racists. A good example of this is the way the Direct Provision set up was foisted on rural communities as we saw recently in Caherciveen & elsewhere. Communities ravaged economically & ignored for decades by our political class, foisting huge numbers of people on communities who didn't have the facilities to cater for these poor people and with no consultation. It was frustrating for all involved & does nothing for integration. However as soon as communities objected our pathetic Minister for Justice & political class & media shut down all debate & labelled the entire communities as alt right & fascists/racists, absolutely the opposite to what these people are.
If you want to sort out these issues, fine but when you silence all debate & through out labels such as alt right & racists, you alienate people are only ensuring division rather than integration. The political class & media here & in England are doing a good job of creating a divided society & the US which is a really cocked up society will some day end up in civil war. There is no sign of real leadership who will bring people together whilst respecting all sides & finding solutions to issues & definitely a lack of courage within media to do the same. this will all end badly the way things are going."
Well put moc, like Tomás O'Sé said 1 time if you go far enough east eventually you'll end up in the west.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 13/06/2020 21:13:48    2280721

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Replying To moc.dna:  "Will the Cork county board chairperson confiscate Palestinian flags flown at GAA matches as well or will she just choose to ignore it as its not a popular bandwagon to jump on. We all know our politicians & wannabe politicians wont touch that as it would have all the left wing extremists & media slate the action. Many people are using this to enhance their political standing or for moving up the political ladder here & in Europe rather than for what the issue is about. Will the Rising Sun flag be next up, as the Japanese tortured many US soldiers who were persons of colour. What if the Protesant or Loyalist community start complaining about being offended by the Cork flag or by GAA clubs in Cork named after people who fought British rule, outlandish, not a bit, that is what is up next, where do you stop. You cannot & should not re write history.
This whole thing has been hijacked by people & organisations who are extremists as well, who want to impose their own ideals & silence others. This is not incidential, Peter Sutherland advised the EU to do its best to undermine national homogenity & within a few years, millions had entered Europe causing massive unrest & putting some countries on the point of collapse. This is part of social engineering & removal of national identities, lets not forget we are "very white", a disgraceful comment by the Taoiseach of this country.
Ireland has a massive history of sending people to the missions & have being one of the highest contributors per capita to famine relief schemes & recently were massive contributors to the Navajo/Hope native people, not the actions of a country rampant with racism. Majority of Irish people are not racist, but any debate or difference of opinion from what the extremists or the media want is shouted down & everyone labelled as racists. A good example of this is the way the Direct Provision set up was foisted on rural communities as we saw recently in Caherciveen & elsewhere. Communities ravaged economically & ignored for decades by our political class, foisting huge numbers of people on communities who didn't have the facilities to cater for these poor people and with no consultation. It was frustrating for all involved & does nothing for integration. However as soon as communities objected our pathetic Minister for Justice & political class & media shut down all debate & labelled the entire communities as alt right & fascists/racists, absolutely the opposite to what these people are.
If you want to sort out these issues, fine but when you silence all debate & through out labels such as alt right & racists, you alienate people are only ensuring division rather than integration. The political class & media here & in England are doing a good job of creating a divided society & the US which is a really cocked up society will some day end up in civil war. There is no sign of real leadership who will bring people together whilst respecting all sides & finding solutions to issues & definitely a lack of courage within media to do the same. this will all end badly the way things are going."
Your right about a possible civil war, its already begun on social media

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1238 - 13/06/2020 21:20:45    2280722

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Replying To sligo joe:  "This is not about getting offended on other peoples' behalf, it is about deciding what is or isn't appropriate. It should not be about waiting for those who are offended to express their hurt, surely we can all be offended by symbols of oppression, if we have to wait for oppressed people to have an effective voice we will indeed be waiting. If we know it's wrong, no need to wait."
'appropriate'

Who decides on appropriate, Tracey Kennedy? Who else was consulted?

Policy can't be decided on the hoof because of a recent racist killing in America. I'm not saying I'm against its banning but people are just being opportunistic. There are a lot of other flags flown at matches that may offend somebody. Many mentioned here.

Yours is a bleeding heart post. Where do you stop? I was driving through Tullow in Carlow a few months ago. Suppose they ought to take down the 1798 pikeman statue, their are a lot of Protestant families in the area who had loyalist ancestry. Perhaps some of the big houses around the country should be levelled, they're symbols of landlord oppression.

CC2020 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 41 - 13/06/2020 21:23:52    2280725

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'll be honest I don't really think there's a good need for those flags in GAA grounds either.

The Israeli flag though is a very contentious issue though.

I myself personally would find what is perpetuated by the Israeli government to the Palestinian people to be as close to apartheid as you can get. I do think though that the pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionism movements have plenty of people who are not just anti-Zionists but also anti-semites. I can understand why someone of a Jewish background would be concerned if there were to be a ban on the Israeli flag. You're starting to get into really some difficult questions there that I'll be honest I don't have the answers to.

The confederate flag is more clear cut in my mind.

I agree with Htaem that depending on context flags and symbols can have different meaning.

Where I would disagree is that when it comes to the topic of slavery it is so abhorrent that it shouldn't be taken complacently. The equivalence of the confederate flag at Cork games and Swastikas in Eastern cultures. For a start the history of the use of the Swastika predates that of its adoption by the Nazis."
Sound man whammo, I was just trying to gauge what was or wasn't acceptable to people from a left persuadion , I often wonder who gives these flags and symbols and words such power the people who use them or the people who take offence from them.

I honestly don't believe the Cork fans who use the confederate flag are trying to be racist, they just like the fact that's its a rebel flag from the deep south.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 13/06/2020 21:34:01    2280728

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  "[quote=MesAmis:  "[quote=Htaem:  "You haven't answered this important question though:

Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?

Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.

It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.

Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)."
I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time.

I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag.

Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.
That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag....Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."


So it's 'perfectly reasonable and logical' to 'assume' that all Cork supporters who wave a Confederate flag are white supremacists and pro slavery?"]Read what I posted."]I've quoted what you posted. You seem to have a problem answering straight forward questions."]I've answered plenty of times at this stage.

I can't be blamed if you have trouble reading it.

It is logical to think that anyone who flys the Confederate flag in 2020 must be comfortable with being associated with what it represents.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 21:42:56    2280730

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Replying To extranjero:  "I believe it was banned already 3 years ago, so probably not."
It wasn't banned 3 year's ago.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 979 - 13/06/2020 21:49:07    2280731

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Devils advocate here.
Let's suppose several people here get their way, and there is no ban on the confederate flag.
Corks first game in the championship, and several hundred show up with confederacy flags.
What happens next?

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 362 - 13/06/2020 22:09:06    2280734

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Replying To CC2020:  "'appropriate'

Who decides on appropriate, Tracey Kennedy? Who else was consulted?

Policy can't be decided on the hoof because of a recent racist killing in America. I'm not saying I'm against its banning but people like Ms. Kennedy are just being opportunistic. There are a lot of other flags flown at matches that may offend somebody. Many mentioned here.

Yours is a bleeding heart post. Where do you stop? I was driving through Tullow in Carlow a few months ago. Suppose they ought to take down the 1798 pikeman statue, their are a lot of Protestant families in the area who had loyalist ancestry. Perhaps some of the big houses around the country should be levelled, they're symbols of landlord oppression."
This isnt deciding policy based on one murder in the states. This issue has come up time and time again over the years. The murder of the man in the states and subsequent protests have simply brought the issue of the flag at gaa issues to the fore again

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 960 - 13/06/2020 22:25:11    2280736

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Replying To extranjero:  "Devils advocate here.
Let's suppose several people here get their way, and there is no ban on the confederate flag.
Corks first game in the championship, and several hundred show up with confederacy flags.
What happens next?"
They play the game I suppose, be it hurling or football, whichever is fixed for the day.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 22:37:00    2280737

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Replying To extranjero:  "Devils advocate here.
Let's suppose several people here get their way, and there is no ban on the confederate flag.
Corks first game in the championship, and several hundred show up with confederacy flags.
What happens next?"
Probably nothing. Some people might be annoyed but that's perpetual.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 959 - 13/06/2020 22:46:40    2280738

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Replying To moc.dna:  "Will the Cork county board chairperson confiscate Palestinian flags flown at GAA matches as well or will she just choose to ignore it as its not a popular bandwagon to jump on. We all know our politicians & wannabe politicians wont touch that as it would have all the left wing extremists & media slate the action. Many people are using this to enhance their political standing or for moving up the political ladder here & in Europe rather than for what the issue is about. Will the Rising Sun flag be next up, as the Japanese tortured many US soldiers who were persons of colour. What if the Protesant or Loyalist community start complaining about being offended by the Cork flag or by GAA clubs in Cork named after people who fought British rule, outlandish, not a bit, that is what is up next, where do you stop. You cannot & should not re write history.
This whole thing has been hijacked by people & organisations who are extremists as well, who want to impose their own ideals & silence others. This is not incidential, Peter Sutherland advised the EU to do its best to undermine national homogenity & within a few years, millions had entered Europe causing massive unrest & putting some countries on the point of collapse. This is part of social engineering & removal of national identities, lets not forget we are "very white", a disgraceful comment by the Taoiseach of this country.
Ireland has a massive history of sending people to the missions & have being one of the highest contributors per capita to famine relief schemes & recently were massive contributors to the Navajo/Hope native people, not the actions of a country rampant with racism. Majority of Irish people are not racist, but any debate or difference of opinion from what the extremists or the media want is shouted down & everyone labelled as racists. A good example of this is the way the Direct Provision set up was foisted on rural communities as we saw recently in Caherciveen & elsewhere. Communities ravaged economically & ignored for decades by our political class, foisting huge numbers of people on communities who didn't have the facilities to cater for these poor people and with no consultation. It was frustrating for all involved & does nothing for integration. However as soon as communities objected our pathetic Minister for Justice & political class & media shut down all debate & labelled the entire communities as alt right & fascists/racists, absolutely the opposite to what these people are.
If you want to sort out these issues, fine but when you silence all debate & through out labels such as alt right & racists, you alienate people are only ensuring division rather than integration. The political class & media here & in England are doing a good job of creating a divided society & the US which is a really cocked up society will some day end up in civil war. There is no sign of real leadership who will bring people together whilst respecting all sides & finding solutions to issues & definitely a lack of courage within media to do the same. this will all end badly the way things are going."
Very well said moc.dna. I understand people dislike or hate for the confederate flag but It's my belief this goes beyond people being offended by flags, looking for statues to be pulled down or censoring jokes on old tv shows, where does the madness stop? It gives elites power to censor and control societies, and whats happening at the moment are left-wing nuts forcing their ideology on people and that could very well turn decent people to support loons on the right wing, That why the left-wing governance of the EU turned the UK public to vote Brexit and why there is a fraud and a charlatan president of the USA.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 602 - 13/06/2020 22:48:26    2280739

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