National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Gleebo:  "That's a fair point and thanks for responding. Hard and all as it is to believe from my posts here, I consider myself left wing too: I believe in trade unionism, a fair day's pay, an end to zero hours contracts, a multilateral international system, redistribution, a Tobin tax on the financial sector etc.

I am not even against a conversation on racism in the West or drawing attention to institutional racism, because it does exist. Where I draw the line is some of the tactics of the woke crowd (especially on social media) which I believe are harming the left. These are the rioting, looting and vigilantism that we are seeing, as well as the shaming and doxxing of those with alternative views. The perpetual cult of victim hood exhibited on the far left is also driving many people away, I feel.

It is this sort of left-wing platform which has ensured the election of Trump, Bolsonaro, Johnson etc. rather than those advocating for a UBI or a living wage. If you adopt an attitude of "you're either with us or against us", without room for compromise, qualification or dissent, then many will choose "against us"."
Ok, those are all fair points and I very much agree with the spirit of things.

My perception of the rioting has been for the most part it's been an attempt at real peaceful protest of police brutality and systematic racism.

There are elements who have jumped on the bandwagon to push their own agendas or to use it as an excuse to embark on a bout of anti social behaviour.

I don't feel it should take away from the message of the protests, that racism is alive and well in the world and that we've a responsibility to challenge it.

People/organisations all have an interpretation of how they should do that best in their own lives. Their answers will be imperfect, their will be rightful disagreement but that trying to improve society is a good thing and it won't be done perfectly but it is better than not being attempted at all.

To try to get it back on topic though. It's very hard to argue that there's a good reason to allow Confederate battle flags into GAA grounds. If ones only reason to do so is to not to cede ground in the culture war then I think there are priorities seriously out of line.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 13/06/2020 13:37:49    2280633

Link

Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  " "It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable"

Who 'deems' what is acceptable?"
The collective And then consensus through discussion"
When and where, and by who, was the discussion regarding the banning of Farther Ted and Gone with The Wind?"]Have they been banned though?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 13:37:50    2280634

Link

Replying To Breezy:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""As for clubs being named after John Mitchell, there's probably a conversation to be had over that too. These conversations should be had," Where was the "conversation" with the Cork supporters over the confederate flag? Tracey Kennedy (Cork GAA chairperson) decided it was banned that's it ("As far as I'm concerned, the Confederate flag is banned,")."
As far as I'm concerned sounds like a personal opinion to me so I'm sure many could and did give counter opinions"
It is not an opinion, it is an edict. She also stated "I'm happy to make that position explicit and say it's banned from our grounds."

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 979 - 13/06/2020 13:49:25    2280637

Link

Replying To MesAmis:  "I don't know what Greta Thunberg has to do with this? She's an environmentalist no?

She has nothing to do with allowing or not allowing white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA matches. Or maybe I've missed something.

I also don't see what your lifestyle or family has to do with the removal of white supremacist pro-slavery flags from GAA grounds either?

I'm not offended by the removal of white supremacist pro-slavery flags from GAA grounds at all so don't know what the 'perpetually offended' reference is about either.

We can engage in whataboutery or can have a discussion.

The issue is whether or not you're in support of people flying white supremacist pro-slavery flags in GAA grounds. It isn't about anything else."
I'll just respond to this post to keep things simple.

The discussion is more about the meaning of the flag, you've taken a hardline view that it means white supremacy and that's it. I'm arguing that people waving the flag at Cork matches are doing so to support their county and nothing more.

Also, like i said previously, generally speaking flags themselves hold no inherent meaning, we humans attach meaning to them. So what has an average Cork fan waving a Confederate flag got to do with white supremacy? Would you not agree that they are merely supporting their county?

As for what's being dismissed as "whataboutery", I'm simply highlighting the censorship of Little Britain & Gone With the Wind and the lack of corresponding censorship of White Chicks to show the inconsistency and hypocrisy of the current wave of far left pressure groups.

But if you wish to ignore and dismiss those points outright then that's your choice.

Personally I don't think we'll learn much from history if we try to whitewash it and ban things left right and centre in the process.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 14:03:03    2280640

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "They're supporting Cork, not slavery, what's the issue?

Ok let's say Little Britain is racist, then by your logic surely Fr Ted must go for the Chinese episode, also surely the Simpsons must go for it's many stereotypical racial depictions (not least of the average white man), also interestingly White Chicks has not been removed from anywhere to my knowledge (personally I couldn't care less, but it seems a bit of a double standard!).

Anyway what say you to the above, ban'em all if you're being consistent."
The flag doesnt represent cork, it's people though.
You can go down the wormhole you are trying to go but it isnt the same. Simpsons isnt in anyway near the same especially of the average white family. It's a cultural commentary and not near the same as this.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 961 - 13/06/2020 14:16:21    2280641

Link

I was thinking of getting a Norwich jersey for Donegal games but I am having second thoughts because Delia Smith is associated with them and some of her recipes are not great.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 642 - 13/06/2020 14:18:24    2280642

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "It matters to me what Cork supporters bring to matches because it can make the GAA a less inclusive organisation for black people. The GAA as an organisation is something that means a lot to me and I want it to operate in positive manner. The GAA has a large cultural impact on Irish society which I also want to be inclusive of others.

The Chinese episode of Father Ted is racist. Do I think it should be banned, I'm not sure to be honest.

The confederate battle flag is not equivalent to an episode of Father Ted though.

As I've said each particular topic should be discussed on its own merits. The confederate flag in this day and age is well beyond acceptable and if you're best reason for keeping it is "what next?", well I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep it."
The Gaa is open to all and to be honest I don't think the waving of a Confederate flag at Cork intercounty games is going to stop black people from playing Gaa.

btw if you're serious about being PC isn't the term 'black people' also racist these days, aren't we supposed to say 'people of colour' now.....that is until that term also becomes 'racist', which it probably will do in a few years judging by present form.

Anyway my reason for not supporting the ban isn't simply because "what next", my reason for opposing the ban is because I don't believe those who are waving the confederate flag are doing anything other than supporting their county, they are not waving it in support of slavery.

I also don't like power hungry pressure groups with agendas dictating to me, be it the catholic church nor the far left PC brigade, I believe in live and let live.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 14:22:03    2280644

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "They're just supporting Cork though, I'd imagine most of them are not 'white supremacists' who support slavery.

Also, flags hold no actually meaning, we humans attach meaning to them. Now to my mind someone waving a Conferdate flag at a Cork game is almost certainly doing so to support his or her county, I doubt very much they're waving it to support the instiution of slavery.

Simply put, to them it means 'I support Cork', not 'I support slavery'.

Do you think they're supporting slavery? Also as a matter of interest, do you also support he removal of apparently 'offensive' material such as Little Britain and Gone With the Wind?"
But to wave that flag at a game you actively have to go out and find such a flag. These flags are not exactly commonly sold on the streets outside grounds or in many shops now are they. To actively go and find one of these flags suggests they're happy or at least accept that what this flag represents to majority of people is ok.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 961 - 13/06/2020 14:23:56    2280645

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "I'll just respond to this post to keep things simple.

The discussion is more about the meaning of the flag, you've taken a hardline view that it means white supremacy and that's it. I'm arguing that people waving the flag at Cork matches are doing so to support their county and nothing more.

Also, like i said previously, generally speaking flags themselves hold no inherent meaning, we humans attach meaning to them. So what has an average Cork fan waving a Confederate flag got to do with white supremacy? Would you not agree that they are merely supporting their county?

As for what's being dismissed as "whataboutery", I'm simply highlighting the censorship of Little Britain & Gone With the Wind and the lack of corresponding censorship of White Chicks to show the inconsistency and hypocrisy of the current wave of far left pressure groups.

But if you wish to ignore and dismiss those points outright then that's your choice.

Personally I don't think we'll learn much from history if we try to whitewash it and ban things left right and centre in the process."
I agree that that whitewashing history is wrong.

That's why I disagree with the whitewashing of the meaning of the Confederate flag.

It is a flag created for a war that was about retaining the right to buy and sell human beings for profit.

Anybody waving that flag leaves themselves wide open to being viewed in that sphere. You can say that the flag means something else to you but you cannot change what the flag actually represents. You are choosing to associate yourself with a flag that represents white supremacy and pro-slavery.

Basically I don't think anyone waving that flag can be rightfully offended in this day and age of someone makes the assumption that they are a racist. It's a logical assumption to make.

Supposed censorship of TV shows/movies have nothing to do with this issue.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 14:24:40    2280646

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "The flag doesnt represent cork, it's people though.
You can go down the wormhole you are trying to go but it isnt the same. Simpsons isnt in anyway near the same especially of the average white family. It's a cultural commentary and not near the same as this."
But who are you to say what it represents, surely the people waving it have the right to decide what it represents to them.

Do you honestly believe that those waving the confederate flag at Cork games are supporting slavery, or do you think they are waving it to support Cork? Be honest now.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 14:25:57    2280647

Link

Replying To MesAmis:  "I agree that that whitewashing history is wrong.

That's why I disagree with the whitewashing of the meaning of the Confederate flag.

It is a flag created for a war that was about retaining the right to buy and sell human beings for profit.

Anybody waving that flag leaves themselves wide open to being viewed in that sphere. You can say that the flag means something else to you but you cannot change what the flag actually represents. You are choosing to associate yourself with a flag that represents white supremacy and pro-slavery.

Basically I don't think anyone waving that flag can be rightfully offended in this day and age of someone makes the assumption that they are a racist. It's a logical assumption to make.

Supposed censorship of TV shows/movies have nothing to do with this issue."
Listen I agree 100% with you Mes, anybody who waves any flag in support of slavery or anything like it should be banned from Gaa matches, never even mind the flags, those people should have no place in our society.

So we are the same on that point Mes, nice to be in agreement eh :-)

However I do not support the ban of people waving flags in support of their county, and you still haven't addressed whether or not you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?

Ps, also do you believe flags have inherent meaning or that we humans attach meaning to them?

No problem, if you wish to ignore the hypocrisy, I'll let you slide on that, but it is relevant to the currant wave of far left pressure groups and the things which 'offend' them.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 14:45:20    2280651

Link

Replying To Breezy:  "Little Britain was a white guy playing black for laughs with no point or sense of message. Father Ted was satire that at least pointed to the idea that the racism in that episode was wrong.

And it's not like cork are short of other flags to pick from which I hear the have taken on board in Cork.

Lots of people on here claiming woke people are getting offended for other people for the sake of getting offended seem themselves to be getting offended about a Cork issue despite not being from Cork"
Just don't agree with the current wave of banning things Breezy, it's the woke agenda if you like.

Live and let live.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 15:08:10    2280653

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "But who are you to say what it represents, surely the people waving it have the right to decide what it represents to them.

Do you honestly believe that those waving the confederate flag at Cork games are supporting slavery, or do you think they are waving it to support Cork? Be honest now."
Well first and foremost it is an American flag, presume we agree on that. Some believe the flag symbolises slavery and racism as being justified because one of the tenets of the confederates whose flag it is, was that their "right" to own Africans as slaves should continue.
One thing for sure is it does not represent Cork football or hurling. It is childish to suggest that well weathered symbols like confederate flags, swastikas etc can be adopted by groups and re-invented and that their well known global association with slavery and nazi Germany can be ignored.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 170 - 13/06/2020 15:14:30    2280654

Link

Replying To MesAmis:  "I'm not trying to control any narrative, others are trying to make this about TV shows or the colour of Sligo's jerseys or any number of other issues. Another poster even brought Greta Thunberg into the discussion for no apparent reason.

The flag of the Confederacy represented a country that briefly existed for the sole reason to protect their right to buy and sell human beings to do with what they pleased.

I think that such a flag, that represents white supremacy and pro-slavery has no place at a GAA ground.

Others disagree and think its fine to have white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA but I find their reasons perplexing to say the least."
There was no SOLE reason for the Civil War or the South's stance. You really have some reading to do. I'm sure you mean well and your heart is in the right place but some of your catch words are just another example of "McCarthyism" and not very helpful to healthy debate.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 959 - 13/06/2020 15:17:34    2280655

Link

Replying To Trump2020:  "According to RTE the Confederate Flag will be banned at Cork matches. Thoughts?"
I don't understand why they wave the Confederate Flag at Cork matches (red blue and white!) maybe those individuals who wave them have family from the Confederate States of America? If you see a Irish Flag at Baseball or American Football matches or even Aussie Rules in Australia you think those people must be proud to be Irish away from home overseas.
The Confederate Flag is about an identity for "Southern Folk in America "who are proud of where they come from, definitely not some clowns from Cork!

katser (Galway) - Posts: 882 - 13/06/2020 15:56:07    2280657

Link

Replying To Trump2020:  "There was no SOLE reason for the Civil War or the South's stance. You really have some reading to do. I'm sure you mean well and your heart is in the right place but some of your catch words are just another example of "McCarthyism" and not very helpful to healthy debate."
I leave you to read your revisionist histories of the US Civil War, I'm happy with the facts of what happened.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 16:10:53    2280658

Link

Replying To sligo joe:  "Well first and foremost it is an American flag, presume we agree on that. Some believe the flag symbolises slavery and racism as being justified because one of the tenets of the confederates whose flag it is, was that their "right" to own Africans as slaves should continue.
One thing for sure is it does not represent Cork football or hurling. It is childish to suggest that well weathered symbols like confederate flags, swastikas etc can be adopted by groups and re-invented and that their well known global association with slavery and nazi Germany can be ignored."
To be fair, the association of the swastika with genocide and white supremacism is also relatively recent; it was originally a Hindu symbol denoting well-being (ironically in view of Hitler's views on non-white people's and his actions on their wellbeing). Does this not demonstrate that the meanings of symbols can change over time?

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 13/06/2020 16:16:07    2280660

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "Listen I agree 100% with you Mes, anybody who waves any flag in support of slavery or anything like it should be banned from Gaa matches, never even mind the flags, those people should have no place in our society.

So we are the same on that point Mes, nice to be in agreement eh :-)

However I do not support the ban of people waving flags in support of their county, and you still haven't addressed whether or not you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?

Ps, also do you believe flags have inherent meaning or that we humans attach meaning to them?

No problem, if you wish to ignore the hypocrisy, I'll let you slide on that, but it is relevant to the currant wave of far left pressure groups and the things which 'offend' them."
I think it is incredibly naive to believe that in 2020 none of those waving Confederate flags at Cork games don't know what that flag represents.

If this was the 1970s you'd have a point but it's 2020.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 16:17:41    2280662

Link

Also, in that vein, the Celtic cross is often seen as a fascist/far right symbol in Eastern Europe, believe it or not.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 13/06/2020 16:18:20    2280664

Link

Replying To sligo joe:  "Well first and foremost it is an American flag, presume we agree on that. Some believe the flag symbolises slavery and racism as being justified because one of the tenets of the confederates whose flag it is, was that their "right" to own Africans as slaves should continue.
One thing for sure is it does not represent Cork football or hurling. It is childish to suggest that well weathered symbols like confederate flags, swastikas etc can be adopted by groups and re-invented and that their well known global association with slavery and nazi Germany can be ignored."
It represents the Cork Gaa suppprters who wish to wave it and again I make the point they are waving it in support of their county, unless you think otherwise?

Interesting you should mention the swastika, the Nazi's didn't invent that symbol you know, apparently it had been been around for thousands of years and represented good fortune. But the Nazi's adopted it and re-invented it for themselves.

So symbols can be adopted and re-invented to represent different things, a very evil symbol in the case of Nazi Germany.

Also, I'm open to correction on this but I believe the swastika is still in use today in certain eastern religious cultures (eg Buddhists & Hindus etc) with no association to the Nazi's whatsoever. Should they be banned from using it even though it means something completely different to them?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 16:51:23    2280669

Link