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Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To Horsebox77:  "Ah FFS this has become ludicrous, what next making Sligo change back the all white jersey as the black one is offensive, Jesus wept, I read locally that one iconic club should consider chang8ng their name due to its affiliation to John Mitchels.

If it causes offense , don't read or switch off and let us normal folk get on with our lives.

We're turning into a bunch of snowflakes, christ.. seriously like."
Going we all are turning into snowflakes for discussing this is childish. Head in the sand stuff. And completely missing the point.
You cant just say if it causes offence then dont read or switch off.
You need to make changes for people to learn.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 961 - 13/06/2020 09:45:18    2280583

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Cork always had the coolest looking flags at matches over the years, be it the Japanese Rising sun, battle flag of the south or the Soviet flag.
In truth it's dangerous to get too into what these flags mean to different people, all the above flags for some mean good and bad things.
For example the confederate flag for many in America was a symbol of slavery, for many it was a symbol of revolt against a federal government trying to tell locals what to do while for others it is mixed up in remembering what happened after the south lost and the harsh treatment of the south by the north after the war was over.
Trying to tell people how to think is wrong, let people decide themselves."
You've nailed it there, let people think how they want to think, most TV shows these days come with warnings of sex, and violence and bad language that might offend so if your easily offended then don't watch these programes.

I see they're thinking of taking only fools and horses off the air along with little brittan and faulty towers as well, to me that's pc gone mad.

They've removed huckleberry finn from schools librarys because of the use of a certain word, but people have to remember that those were different times,

If people are going back in history to get offended then they'll be a lot of dead people in trouble like Churchill.

As a guy on another forum said yesterday will they want to knock the pyramids now because they were built by slaves?

People have to be careful how far this pc is allowed to go as something they love might be found offensive by a few and banned as well.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 13/06/2020 09:48:01    2280584

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Replying To Htaem:  "I'm not a fan of the professionally offended I have to say and sadly the world has gone a little bit mad at the mintue but you'd hope things will calm down soon.

As for the Confederate flag, well look I think if people are waving it in support of slavery then yes that's dusgusting and 100% should be banned (I'd imagine that has already been banned in most places).

However if people are waving the confederate flag in support of Cork Gaa, then I can't really see the problem. Bit a difference between the supporting slavery and supporting Cork I would have thought.

In the long run I can't see history being too kind to all these loopy far left groups looking to ban everything (ps, I believe Little Britian and Gone With The Wind have recently got the chop too because they're extremely racist as well apparently!)."
It's not that they are supporting what the confedracy did but flying that flag does show an ignorance

Of course they're using it to support cork but saying they're doing just that and ignoring what the flag actually represents is missing the point. There is acceptance through flying that flag that what that flag represents is ok.

The use of blackface etc in little Britain was extremely racist and surprising it's only now that it's been cut

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 961 - 13/06/2020 09:51:03    2280585

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a bit of whataboutism going on in this thread.

Well we're not talking about other flags. We're talking about the battle flag of the confederacy here. That's it's overriding meaning. It's the flag that was used on the battlefield by the force that was opposing the abolition of racism. You need to come up with a pretty strong reason for it to remain, I tell you I'm not hearing them.

As for other flags they should be taken on their own merits.

The PC gone mad brigade are always where will it end? I mean come on, it's not like people are acting crazy to think that a flag that was used by those fighting for slavery has no place in the GAA.

As for clubs being named after John Mitchell, there's probably a conversation to be had over that too. These conversations should be had, it's the adamant refusal to bend to any critical thought that I find really quite disturbing from the PC gone mad brigade.

Why are you so afraid to engage and listen to others. You might find them to be right or wrong on specific issues but you guys appear actively against this discovery.

You're happy to live in your own blissful ignorance.

It's a pathetic mindset to have."
One of the best posts this forums ever had. Top class.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 961 - 13/06/2020 09:52:11    2280587

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a bit of whataboutism going on in this thread.

Well we're not talking about other flags. We're talking about the battle flag of the confederacy here. That's it's overriding meaning. It's the flag that was used on the battlefield by the force that was opposing the abolition of racism. You need to come up with a pretty strong reason for it to remain, I tell you I'm not hearing them.

As for other flags they should be taken on their own merits.

The PC gone mad brigade are always where will it end? I mean come on, it's not like people are acting crazy to think that a flag that was used by those fighting for slavery has no place in the GAA.

As for clubs being named after John Mitchell, there's probably a conversation to be had over that too. These conversations should be had, it's the adamant refusal to bend to any critical thought that I find really quite disturbing from the PC gone mad brigade.

Why are you so afraid to engage and listen to others. You might find them to be right or wrong on specific issues but you guys appear actively against this discovery.

You're happy to live in your own blissful ignorance.

It's a pathetic mindset to have."
"As for clubs being named after John Mitchell, there's probably a conversation to be had over that too. These conversations should be had," Where was the "conversation" with the Cork supporters over the confederate flag? Tracey Kennedy (Cork GAA chairperson) decided it was banned that's it ("As far as I'm concerned, the Confederate flag is banned,").

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 979 - 13/06/2020 10:15:52    2280589

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Isn't St Patrick's day a celebration of the Irish. Sure aren't some Irish people racists so maybe that needs to be looked at too.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1424 - 13/06/2020 10:16:27    2280590

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a bit of whataboutism going on in this thread.

Well we're not talking about other flags. We're talking about the battle flag of the confederacy here. That's it's overriding meaning. It's the flag that was used on the battlefield by the force that was opposing the abolition of racism. You need to come up with a pretty strong reason for it to remain, I tell you I'm not hearing them.

As for other flags they should be taken on their own merits.

The PC gone mad brigade are always where will it end? I mean come on, it's not like people are acting crazy to think that a flag that was used by those fighting for slavery has no place in the GAA.

As for clubs being named after John Mitchell, there's probably a conversation to be had over that too. These conversations should be had, it's the adamant refusal to bend to any critical thought that I find really quite disturbing from the PC gone mad brigade.

Why are you so afraid to engage and listen to others. You might find them to be right or wrong on specific issues but you guys appear actively against this discovery.

You're happy to live in your own blissful ignorance.

It's a pathetic mindset to have."
Because a lot of the people toppling statues will not be happy until we entirely recast our societies according to their niche demands.

I have seen people of a woke disposition genuinely comparing Ireland to apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany in terms of race relations. There is no dissuading some of these agitators from their delusions.

I am open to a conversation about John Mitchel because I (and I suspect most of the people playing for clubs named after him) were previously unaware of his abhorrent views. And yeah, what the confederate flag is for is repugnant.But if you think that this isn't the thin edge of the wedge, I suspect that you're very mistaken.

How long will be it before we're told that naming GAA clubs after other historical figures, particularly from
The revolutionary period, is unacceptable? How about the tricolor and national anthem at games? Scór na nÓg? Promotion of the Irish language?

The GAA will evolve slowly as always, but it should be in response to the democratic processes that take place from within.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 13/06/2020 10:17:57    2280591

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Replying To KillingFields:  "It's not that they are supporting what the confedracy did but flying that flag does show an ignorance

Of course they're using it to support cork but saying they're doing just that and ignoring what the flag actually represents is missing the point. There is acceptance through flying that flag that what that flag represents is ok.

The use of blackface etc in little Britain was extremely racist and surprising it's only now that it's been cut"
They're supporting Cork, not slavery, what's the issue?

Ok let's say Little Britain is racist, then by your logic surely Fr Ted must go for the Chinese episode, also surely the Simpsons must go for it's many stereotypical racial depictions (not least of the average white man), also interestingly White Chicks has not been removed from anywhere to my knowledge (personally I couldn't care less, but it seems a bit of a double standard!).

Anyway what say you to the above, ban'em all if you're being consistent.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 10:28:10    2280593

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Replying To Htaem:  "In fairness some "whataboutism" is relevant, especially when you're talking about the wave of modern PC culture.

The more you appease these hard leftist pressure groups the more they will grow in power, and the bans on this, that and other will increase.

Now while maybe you haven't been directly effected by anything yet, just give it time. Eventually somethimg you like will be deemed "problematic" and/or "offensive" and then what.

For example I was only recently watching the Fr Ted episode where everyone thinks Ted is a racist because he does an impression chinese people. Now I love that episode and still do and I hope it's never removed (like Little Britian and Gone with the Wind were this week for being 'racist').

But it's naive at best to think that, that couldn't happen if you continue to support the perpetually offended.

Finally I don't think anybody who waves the Confederate flag at a Cork game is a supporter of slavery, I think they're probably just supporting Cork. What do you think?"
If I learnt that something I loved made someone else feel like a lesser member of our society I would listen to them and think on whether it's true or not. If it was to be removed it would be a tiny hardship on me in the grand scheme of things. It would pale into insignificance in comparison to the hardships that other endure and are perpetuated by an uncritical analysis of racism and portrayals of racism in our society.

I would get over it.

You are very happy for others to have to get over the existence of racist symbols in our society. I think I'd be quite able to get over the loss of them.

We'll all have our points at some stage where we believe things have gone too far. I will probably lose things that I love at some point and I maybe won't agree with it but you know what it'll be because I live in a democracy where others have had their say and you know what I'll live.

Honestly how many times do you expect to watch that episode of Father Ted in your life again if it's always available to you. It's a pretty insignificant hardship.

You'll also likely be able to find it. Gone With the Wind was removed from one platform. It's still available in other forms, it's in the top 48 highest rated films on iTunes currently for example.

So to be honest I think most of these "where will it end" arguments are utter nonsense and always blown out of proportion to make it seem like there's a hard left cultural war being waged. It's not. It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable and it's a healthy process for society to engage in.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 13/06/2020 10:35:13    2280594

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Because a lot of the people toppling statues will not be happy until we entirely recast our societies according to their niche demands.

I have seen people of a woke disposition genuinely comparing Ireland to apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany in terms of race relations. There is no dissuading some of these agitators from their delusions.

I am open to a conversation about John Mitchel because I (and I suspect most of the people playing for clubs named after him) were previously unaware of his abhorrent views. And yeah, what the confederate flag is for is repugnant.But if you think that this isn't the thin edge of the wedge, I suspect that you're very mistaken.

How long will be it before we're told that naming GAA clubs after other historical figures, particularly from
The revolutionary period, is unacceptable? How about the tricolor and national anthem at games? Scór na nÓg? Promotion of the Irish language?

The GAA will evolve slowly as always, but it should be in response to the democratic processes that take place from within."
You know what I say if I hear a woke person say that Ireland is as bad as Apartheid era South Africa or Nazi Germany, I say you're a fool go read a book.

I'm very leftist. There are absolutely idiots out there who make dumb arguments for the sake of some intellectual, moral purity.

It's not the reality of where most people and most right minded people are at. It's scaremongering to think that's in anyway the consensus.

There's plenty of people for instance who care about social justice who are annoyed about the cancellation of some of these shows because it's detracting against their core message.

I've a lot more faith in the collective of human intelligence that it can actually come up with a real answer to these questions.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 13/06/2020 10:54:55    2280595

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It is incredible the amount of who get offended by the removal of a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.

Their argument of "it's PC gone mad" or "where will it end?" is pure strawman whataboutery.

It's pretty simple, with all the knowledge we have in 2020.

You either think it's OK to fly white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA matches or you don't. It's not about anything else, the above is all its about.

A lot of people on this thread seem to think it is OK which is sad in this day and age.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 10:55:55    2280596

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Replying To Htaem:  "They're supporting Cork, not slavery, what's the issue?

Ok let's say Little Britain is racist, then by your logic surely Fr Ted must go for the Chinese episode, also surely the Simpsons must go for it's many stereotypical racial depictions (not least of the average white man), also interestingly White Chicks has not been removed from anywhere to my knowledge (personally I couldn't care less, but it seems a bit of a double standard!).

Anyway what say you to the above, ban'em all if you're being consistent."
You know that the confederate battle flag is the only thing available to people who want to support Cork.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 13/06/2020 10:59:02    2280597

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If I learnt that something I loved made someone else feel like a lesser member of our society I would listen to them and think on whether it's true or not. If it was to be removed it would be a tiny hardship on me in the grand scheme of things. It would pale into insignificance in comparison to the hardships that other endure and are perpetuated by an uncritical analysis of racism and portrayals of racism in our society.

I would get over it.

You are very happy for others to have to get over the existence of racist symbols in our society. I think I'd be quite able to get over the loss of them.

We'll all have our points at some stage where we believe things have gone too far. I will probably lose things that I love at some point and I maybe won't agree with it but you know what it'll be because I live in a democracy where others have had their say and you know what I'll live.

Honestly how many times do you expect to watch that episode of Father Ted in your life again if it's always available to you. It's a pretty insignificant hardship.

You'll also likely be able to find it. Gone With the Wind was removed from one platform. It's still available in other forms, it's in the top 48 highest rated films on iTunes currently for example.

So to be honest I think most of these "where will it end" arguments are utter nonsense and always blown out of proportion to make it seem like there's a hard left cultural war being waged. It's not. It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable and it's a healthy process for society to engage in."
Here's the thing: relatively few of these things have been Democratic. How many of the recent statue fellings were conducted as a result of a plebiscite or decisions made by municipal government? Relatively few, I would suggest. Mob rule is not democracy. The decisions to withdraw several renowned tv series from public view because they don't meet the Uber woke PC standards of today were not taken as a result of a strong consensus or campaign throughout our society, they were taken because a vocal, extremist minority made noise about it and the tv networks/streaming networks caved.

The GAA is a bastion of democracy, albeit an imperfect one at times. If people want to go with the times and rename institutions and whatnot, table the motions at club level and beyond. The decision to confiscate the stars and bars flag (repugnant though it is) had no such Democratic process; it was imposed from the top down.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 13/06/2020 11:05:50    2280598

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If I learnt that something I loved made someone else feel like a lesser member of our society I would listen to them and think on whether it's true or not. If it was to be removed it would be a tiny hardship on me in the grand scheme of things. It would pale into insignificance in comparison to the hardships that other endure and are perpetuated by an uncritical analysis of racism and portrayals of racism in our society.

I would get over it.

You are very happy for others to have to get over the existence of racist symbols in our society. I think I'd be quite able to get over the loss of them.

We'll all have our points at some stage where we believe things have gone too far. I will probably lose things that I love at some point and I maybe won't agree with it but you know what it'll be because I live in a democracy where others have had their say and you know what I'll live.

Honestly how many times do you expect to watch that episode of Father Ted in your life again if it's always available to you. It's a pretty insignificant hardship.

You'll also likely be able to find it. Gone With the Wind was removed from one platform. It's still available in other forms, it's in the top 48 highest rated films on iTunes currently for example.

So to be honest I think most of these "where will it end" arguments are utter nonsense and always blown out of proportion to make it seem like there's a hard left cultural war being waged. It's not. It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable and it's a healthy process for society to engage in."
Look I absolutely agree that it's important to listen to people and re-evaluate their positions from time to time, that's all part of growing up and moving on. It's the reason why we went from homosexuality basically being in Ireland until the 90s to legalizing gay marriage by popular vote in 2015 which personally I though was a great day for Ireland.

But I also don't think that every single thing I like should have to be pre-approved by society first, that seems quite dictatorial. There are plenty of things I don't like but rather than trying to ban them I just don't interact with them and as such they don't cause me any stress.

Also just regarding people's level of hardship if you want to call it, well that's completely subjective, you have to make a choice as to who's hardship matters and who's doesn't.

I have to say I completely disagree with your dismissal of people's concerns regarding the growing influence of radical leftist groups/ideology. Will you practice what your preach though and hear out our concerns or simply dismiss them as "utter nonsense"

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 11:05:53    2280599

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Replying To Htaem:  "They're supporting Cork, not slavery, what's the issue?

Ok let's say Little Britain is racist, then by your logic surely Fr Ted must go for the Chinese episode, also surely the Simpsons must go for it's many stereotypical racial depictions (not least of the average white man), also interestingly White Chicks has not been removed from anywhere to my knowledge (personally I couldn't care less, but it seems a bit of a double standard!).

Anyway what say you to the above, ban'em all if you're being consistent."
They're supporting Cork by waving a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.

If you're waving a white supremacist pro-slavery flag in 2020 I don't think think someone coming to the conclusion that you're a bit racist is an illogical conclusion.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 13/06/2020 11:06:06    2280600

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If I learnt that something I loved made someone else feel like a lesser member of our society I would listen to them and think on whether it's true or not. If it was to be removed it would be a tiny hardship on me in the grand scheme of things. It would pale into insignificance in comparison to the hardships that other endure and are perpetuated by an uncritical analysis of racism and portrayals of racism in our society.

I would get over it.

You are very happy for others to have to get over the existence of racist symbols in our society. I think I'd be quite able to get over the loss of them.

We'll all have our points at some stage where we believe things have gone too far. I will probably lose things that I love at some point and I maybe won't agree with it but you know what it'll be because I live in a democracy where others have had their say and you know what I'll live.

Honestly how many times do you expect to watch that episode of Father Ted in your life again if it's always available to you. It's a pretty insignificant hardship.

You'll also likely be able to find it. Gone With the Wind was removed from one platform. It's still available in other forms, it's in the top 48 highest rated films on iTunes currently for example.

So to be honest I think most of these "where will it end" arguments are utter nonsense and always blown out of proportion to make it seem like there's a hard left cultural war being waged. It's not. It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable and it's a healthy process for society to engage in."
"It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable"

Who 'deems' what is acceptable?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 979 - 13/06/2020 11:08:28    2280601

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Going we all are turning into snowflakes for discussing this is childish. Head in the sand stuff. And completely missing the point.
You cant just say if it causes offence then dont read or switch off.
You need to make changes for people to learn."
Certain people are trying to change history by whitewashing certain people and events out of it because it causes them shame of some kind, history is there to be learnt from and people who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

During the 14/15 hundreds the time of the Spanish inquisition lots of books on history and medicines were destroyed because it didn't fit into the way they wanted us to think, Hitler tryed the same thing in Germany, Kim Jong un has done semilar in North Korea, this is not good.

I think its good for people to have different views on things once those view aren't shoved down people's throats.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 13/06/2020 11:24:45    2280603

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  " "It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable"

Who 'deems' what is acceptable?"
The collective And then consensus through discussion

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 13/06/2020 11:46:34    2280605

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Replying To MesAmis:  "They're supporting Cork by waving a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.

If you're waving a white supremacist pro-slavery flag in 2020 I don't think think someone coming to the conclusion that you're a bit racist is an illogical conclusion."
They're just supporting Cork though, I'd imagine most of them are not 'white supremacists' who support slavery.

Also, flags hold no actually meaning, we humans attach meaning to them. Now to my mind someone waving a Conferdate flag at a Cork game is almost certainly doing so to support his or her county, I doubt very much they're waving it to support the instiution of slavery.

Simply put, to them it means 'I support Cork', not 'I support slavery'.

Do you think they're supporting slavery? Also as a matter of interest, do you also support he removal of apparently 'offensive' material such as Little Britain and Gone With the Wind?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 13/06/2020 11:51:04    2280607

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Replying To Htaem:  "Look I absolutely agree that it's important to listen to people and re-evaluate their positions from time to time, that's all part of growing up and moving on. It's the reason why we went from homosexuality basically being in Ireland until the 90s to legalizing gay marriage by popular vote in 2015 which personally I though was a great day for Ireland.

But I also don't think that every single thing I like should have to be pre-approved by society first, that seems quite dictatorial. There are plenty of things I don't like but rather than trying to ban them I just don't interact with them and as such they don't cause me any stress.

Also just regarding people's level of hardship if you want to call it, well that's completely subjective, you have to make a choice as to who's hardship matters and who's doesn't.

I have to say I completely disagree with your dismissal of people's concerns regarding the growing influence of radical leftist groups/ideology. Will you practice what your preach though and hear out our concerns or simply dismiss them as "utter nonsense""
I am listening to you. I still strongly don't agree with you.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 13/06/2020 12:03:01    2280609

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