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Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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I wonder will they tear down the statue of Cromwell who orchestrated the genocide of the Irish People.

katser (Galway) - Posts: 882 - 23/06/2020 21:05:55    2281675

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Replying To katser:  "I wonder will they tear down the statue of Cromwell who orchestrated the genocide of the Irish People."
I doubt it. The Irish are not on the Protected Species List. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 959 - 23/06/2020 21:55:53    2281681

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Replying To Trump2020:  "I doubt it. The Irish are not on the Protected Species List. The squeaky wheel gets the oil."
Pretty sure we done much worse than tear down a few statues in London whenever we had problems with the UK

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 903 - 23/06/2020 23:54:05    2281692

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Replying To katser:  "I wonder will they tear down the statue of Cromwell who orchestrated the genocide of the Irish People."
There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 979 - 24/06/2020 00:02:52    2281693

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Replying To Trump2020:  "I doubt it. The Irish are not on the Protected Species List. The squeaky wheel gets the oil."
Funny, isn't it. You apply for a job in England and most companies will ask you to stipulate your race - and "White Irish" and "White British" are seen as 2 different races!

That is, of course, until it comes to things like Cromwell's statue or the abuse James McClean gets at football matches.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 24/06/2020 08:23:17    2281699

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland."
Was there not? How can either of you be so definitive. Anybody viewing the savage reduction of the Irish population due to his campaign here, the transportation of others to slavery and his expressed views of the as 'Barbarous Irish' could not easily clear Cromwell of the charge of genocide. I am not saying he is guilty of it, but there is a case to be made that he was genocidal.

Oldertourman (Limerick) - Posts: 133 - 24/06/2020 10:34:37    2281703

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland."
Well, I don't remember it personally but that's a surprise to me.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 336 - 24/06/2020 11:03:30    2281705

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Funny, isn't it. You apply for a job in England and most companies will ask you to stipulate your race - and "White Irish" and "White British" are seen as 2 different races!

That is, of course, until it comes to things like Cromwell's statue or the abuse James McClean gets at football matches."
In fairness to the antiracism groups in football they did take him serious but the general population didn't seem to. The whole poppy thing is getting ridiculous with people being threatened and attacked on social media for being unpatriotic for not wearing it and alot of people similar to the "where will it end" people on here believing stories about the imminent banning of poppy day.

I came across alot of people in London who believe racism was only skin colour and that white people couldn't be discriminated against or underprivileged


As for Cromwell's statue I couldn't care if the UK have it outside their own parliament as long as weve gotten em all down over here.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 903 - 24/06/2020 11:11:00    2281707

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland."
The death toll among the civilian population was very high and the rules of the martial law declared were even considered brutal for their time and were criticised by his contemporaries. Whatever way you look at it wiping 50% of a population is severe.

His reasons for invading were justified by the irish backing the king but the viciousness of it was not and was most likely influenced by his well known racist views on Irish and catholics

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 903 - 24/06/2020 11:20:05    2281711

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland."
Did you go to school in England by any chance? If so I'll forgive your ignorance because English kids aren't thought their real history of causing trouble and chaos everywhere they went...

It's all about winning WW2 which they wouldn't have done without help from the yanks and Russians.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10173 - 24/06/2020 11:55:54    2281713

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Did you go to school in England by any chance? If so I'll forgive your ignorance because English kids aren't thought their real history of causing trouble and chaos everywhere they went...

It's all about winning WW2 which they wouldn't have done without help from the yanks and Russians."
Not only would they not have won it without the Yanks and Russians - the Yanks and Russians could have won it without them. But Churchill couldn't let the opportunity to self-serve pass so he sent 1000s of his own men to their death. All the US needed were bases and waterways, they'd have supplied the manpower themselves as they were fully invested in the War at that point.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 24/06/2020 12:56:22    2281722

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland."
So he landed an Army in Ireland to go on holiday is it?
He came here with only one intention and that was to wipe out the Irish Catholic Race by whatever way he wanted.

katser (Galway) - Posts: 882 - 24/06/2020 14:09:40    2281729

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The reprisals against civilians and priests by the Roundheads were widely considered to be excessive even in those times and would be at the very least war crimes today. The Siege of Drogheda being probably the worst example.

Unfortunately Cromwell is revered in England especially because his troops established the rights of parliament there. That he essentially became a dictator for several years afterwards is forgotten, as are the atrocities in Ireland. The common memory of him in the UK is quite similar to that of Winston Churchill in that respect.

QI had an item on Cromwell in which it was said that having his portrait hanging in the room where Irish Government officials was akin to "having a portrait of Eichmann when meeting the Israeli Government". I also remember that the BBC held a poll on the 100 Greatest Britons in which Cromwell came tenth (Ernest Shackleton, Arthur Wellesley, Bono and Bob Geldof also featured in spite of their Irish births, as did James Connolly, surprisingly enough).

For all that, I'm still not for tearing a statue down without some sort of democratic process. Put the case forward and see how it flies.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 24/06/2020 14:48:09    2281733

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Replying To Gleebo:  "The reprisals against civilians and priests by the Roundheads were widely considered to be excessive even in those times and would be at the very least war crimes today. The Siege of Drogheda being probably the worst example.

Unfortunately Cromwell is revered in England especially because his troops established the rights of parliament there. That he essentially became a dictator for several years afterwards is forgotten, as are the atrocities in Ireland. The common memory of him in the UK is quite similar to that of Winston Churchill in that respect.

QI had an item on Cromwell in which it was said that having his portrait hanging in the room where Irish Government officials was akin to "having a portrait of Eichmann when meeting the Israeli Government". I also remember that the BBC held a poll on the 100 Greatest Britons in which Cromwell came tenth (Ernest Shackleton, Arthur Wellesley, Bono and Bob Geldof also featured in spite of their Irish births, as did James Connolly, surprisingly enough).

For all that, I'm still not for tearing a statue down without some sort of democratic process. Put the case forward and see how it flies."
That last paragraph might Be the first reasonable sounding thing I've read on this thread so far.

As for Connolly I think that was an organised vote by Scottish socialists or Celtic fans or something like that as he is still well known in some areas for instance Labour HQ in Liverpool and I think Edinburgh are both called Connolly hall

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 903 - 24/06/2020 14:56:50    2281736

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Replying To katser:  "So he landed an Army in Ireland to go on holiday is it?
He came here with only one intention and that was to wipe out the Irish Catholic Race by whatever way he wanted."
I'm dumbfounded that anyone, particularly on a GAA message board can't see that!

His mural was removed in Belfast a few years ago when Prince Charles visited, because Camilla is a Catholic.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 24/06/2020 15:04:38    2281737

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"The only thing we owe history is to rewrite it"

Oscar Wilde

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1349 - 24/06/2020 15:45:39    2281740

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Replying To katser:  "So he landed an Army in Ireland to go on holiday is it?
He came here with only one intention and that was to wipe out the Irish Catholic Race by whatever way he wanted."
Jeysus he had a fair bad tour guide if he was dragged round to Rathmines, Drogheda and Limerick : )

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 903 - 24/06/2020 16:18:25    2281743

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Replying To OpenStand:  "Seems like theres room for a new GAA club particularly in the Dublin area...Snowflake Gaels!!"
2016 called. They want their meme back.

It's gas how triggered Irish people of a certain persuasion are by the notion of pulling down a few dodgy flags and statues. As if our own history has been one of constructive, civil discourse with occupying British forces and public plebiscites on how we all feel about Cromwell and Union Jacks...

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2511 - 24/06/2020 16:31:35    2281746

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I guess the only question to be answered now is which county will be the first to have a Cromwell flag flying in support of their team. Black with a white lion - so perhaps Sligo? I do like the family motto Pax quaeritur bello. I am sure everyone on here would be 100% behind the flag.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 795 - 24/06/2020 17:12:29    2281750

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There was no 'genocide' orchestrated by Cromwell in Ireland."
It can be difficult to know how to categorize some of these events, alot of the terms we rely on have become overloaded.

I myself would view the famine as essentially a genocide (similar to some famine events in India). I would be more inclined to view the Cromwellian campaign and plantations as an ethnic cleansing. I think when you look at the forced displacement of the native population, the forced anglicization that followed, as well as the killings and somewhat murky/sinister exiles (essentially slavery in some cases), I think it rises to an ethnic cleansing, if not genocide. Either way, it stank.

Its good to be aware of the crap we had to et historically, regardless of semantics, if only to be able to empathize with others historical (or current) issues. However, there is a line beyond which it just becomes wallowing in unearned victimhood, and that can be damaging. So its also good to keep this stuff in context.

I don't really need to see statues of Cromwell torn down in Britain (although I wouldn't object!), I imagine most Irish people wouldn't either. Its just that, if a government starts removing symbols of some peoples historical suffering, while ignoring others, it means there's no underlying principal to the action. Either you value some peoples feeing over others, of you're just acting to placate some people based on the level of noise being made, which is really just patronizing and cynical.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1760 - 24/06/2020 18:13:49    2281756

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