National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Zinny if you and others keep walking around looking for things to be offended by you'll never be happy."
That argument holds true for you as well though.

If Zinny has 'looked to be offended' by the Confederate flag then equally you've looked to be offended by the decision made by the Cork County Board.

Or else it's just an issue that has been ongoing in the GAA which we're all a part so naturally you and Zinny will have an opinion on it.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 18/06/2020 14:47:09    2281201

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Here's something I wonder about: should sports fans be allowed to display Nazi flags at sports events? It's majority red and white, and the person could claim to be only supporting their team and not Nazism.

It's the same scenario as flying the Confederate flag.

iarmhi_an_mhaith (Westmeath) - Posts: 230 - 18/06/2020 14:53:47    2281202

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Replying To iarmhi_an_mhaith:  "Here's something I wonder about: should sports fans be allowed to display Nazi flags at sports events? It's majority red and white, and the person could claim to be only supporting their team and not Nazism.

It's the same scenario as flying the Confederate flag."
If you're going to simplify it that much then can you evaluate the following sentence:

"The Irish Tri-colour should not be flown at sporting events as it has been used as a political symbol by terrorists."

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 18/06/2020 15:17:36    2281203

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Without a doubt it should be banned. There are many forms of symbolism which are used for good and bad including flags, songs, slogans and many more. Where the symbols are a force for good they bring great joy . Where the symbols are questionable but don't appear to affect us personally there is a general tendency to firstly ignore and secondly deny. Denial currently is normally accompanied by "PC" or "woke". These are simply convenient terms to stop us having to think about the issues.

From the data there are in excess of 65,000 black people in Ireland. More than in each of Leitim, Longford, Carlow, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Roscommon & Sligo. It is too easy to deny the issue because the number of black people is only 1.4% of the total population. For those who still think it is a good idea paint yourself a picture of the 65,000 black people and see if your answer is still the same.

johnq (UK) - Posts: 5 - 18/06/2020 15:22:36    2281204

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Replying To MesAmis:  "That argument holds true for you as well though.

If Zinny has 'looked to be offended' by the Confederate flag then equally you've looked to be offended by the decision made by the Cork County Board.

Or else it's just an issue that has been ongoing in the GAA which we're all a part so naturally you and Zinny will have an opinion on it."
I don't going around looking for things to be offended by. If you'd asked me 15 years ago I was completely ignorant of the flag.

I'm not anymore.

I realise it's a racist symbol. I don't think the Cork fans that brought it to games for years are racist, most likely also ignorant.

The meaning of the flag is way more clear cut in the world than the apologists on here would have you believe. I think if it's pointed out to you the meaning of the flag and you continue to then use it, you're at best happy to associate yourself with racist symbology.

In my life, I'm not and the GAA I'm glad isn't either now.

I didn't go out to find offence. I live in the real world and listen to others and learn the nature of that flag. It sickens me now I know of it.

There have now been 6 lynchings of black people in Southern States in the US in recent weeks.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 18/06/2020 15:31:41    2281205

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Replying To cavanman47:  "If you're going to simplify it that much then can you evaluate the following sentence:

"The Irish Tri-colour should not be flown at sporting events as it has been used as a political symbol by terrorists.""
False equivalence in a number of ways

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 18/06/2020 16:27:26    2281206

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It was interesting. I wasn't able to call someone a p o s on here, yesterday.

Admin didn't know what those stood for. There's millions of different words that could be associated to those 3 letters.

They were right to not let the message through because they know what those 3 letters most of the time mean.

The world knows what the confederate flag means.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 18/06/2020 16:30:35    2281207

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Meanwhile, in England...

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/england-fans-may-be-urged-to-stop-singing-swing-low-due-to-slavery-link-1.4282495

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 18/06/2020 16:35:50    2281208

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Replying To Whammo86:  "False equivalence in a number of ways"
And you've chosen to list zero of those ways?


My point is simple - flags can mean many things to many people. The rebel flag flown by Cork GAA supporters does not represent white supremacy or racism IMO. It also was not originally conceived as a symbol of white supremacy or racism.

It has, of course, been used as a symbol of white supremacy and racism.

The tri-colour has been used by some to symbolize their ideals of a United Ireland BY ANY MEANS, including the murder of innocent civilians.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 18/06/2020 16:40:26    2281209

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Meanwhile, in England...

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/england-fans-may-be-urged-to-stop-singing-swing-low-due-to-slavery-link-1.4282495"
They should replace it with the fields of athenry. Would be class to hear both sets of supporters singing it when then play each other.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 18/06/2020 17:08:42    2281212

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Replying To cavanman47:  "And you've chosen to list zero of those ways?


My point is simple - flags can mean many things to many people. The rebel flag flown by Cork GAA supporters does not represent white supremacy or racism IMO. It also was not originally conceived as a symbol of white supremacy or racism.

It has, of course, been used as a symbol of white supremacy and racism.

The tri-colour has been used by some to symbolize their ideals of a United Ireland BY ANY MEANS, including the murder of innocent civilians."
I think you should read back on the previous posts, there is not one respected historian that would argue that the civil war did not have at its heart slavery and a preservation of that way of life in the south and their right to take it beyond there. This is a good read if you want to look more at it.
https://www.historyextra.com/period/victorian/why-america-haunted-past-us-history-civil-war-misconceptions-revolution/

The Tri-colour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland, it has been used and misused by many for their own aims. Yes because of this, there may come a point in time if we are to achieve true peach and reconciliation on the Island of Ireland that we may have to change the flag (the supreme irony would be that was what the flag was supposed to represent in the first place). However do not confuse the debates, the flag never was or currently does not represent anything but the national flag of the country, there is no other meaning to it. The confederate flag represents and has always represented the concept of white supremacy.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 795 - 18/06/2020 17:20:29    2281213

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Replying To cavanman47:  "If you're going to simplify it that much then can you evaluate the following sentence:

"The Irish Tri-colour should not be flown at sporting events as it has been used as a political symbol by terrorists.""
Fwiw, I don't think it should be banned. If you really want to fly a flag to support your county, and for some reason the only flag you can find is the Confederate one, then by all means go ahead and fly it imo. But you should understand that people will see you flying that, and will assume that you are flying it for reason other than your claimed true intentions. And you should be prepared to deal with the consequences of this.

Regarding the Irish flag, much like the Confederate flag the fact that it has been used by terrorists does not change the origin of it. If it was up to me, Ireland should not use the tricolour as it's flag anyway.

iarmhi_an_mhaith (Westmeath) - Posts: 230 - 18/06/2020 17:24:38    2281214

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Replying To iarmhi_an_mhaith:  "Here's something I wonder about: should sports fans be allowed to display Nazi flags at sports events? It's majority red and white, and the person could claim to be only supporting their team and not Nazism.

It's the same scenario as flying the Confederate flag."
I can't see why not if it was done for a bit of a laugh.

I have 1 for ye what if a Cork fan got a tee-shirt with the rebel flag on it would they take that off him as well.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 18/06/2020 17:28:38    2281215

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I can't see why not if it was done for a bit of a laugh.

I have 1 for ye what if a Cork fan got a tee-shirt with the rebel flag on it would they take that off him as well."
I can't imagine they would or could take that off him, much the same as if Kildare fans turned up wearing KKK hoods. The symbolism would be similar though.

iarmhi_an_mhaith (Westmeath) - Posts: 230 - 18/06/2020 17:47:02    2281216

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Replying To zinny:  "I think you should read back on the previous posts, there is not one respected historian that would argue that the civil war did not have at its heart slavery and a preservation of that way of life in the south and their right to take it beyond there. This is a good read if you want to look more at it.
https://www.historyextra.com/period/victorian/why-america-haunted-past-us-history-civil-war-misconceptions-revolution/

The Tri-colour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland, it has been used and misused by many for their own aims. Yes because of this, there may come a point in time if we are to achieve true peach and reconciliation on the Island of Ireland that we may have to change the flag (the supreme irony would be that was what the flag was supposed to represent in the first place). However do not confuse the debates, the flag never was or currently does not represent anything but the national flag of the country, there is no other meaning to it. The confederate flag represents and has always represented the concept of white supremacy."
I think you're getting the Rebel Flag and Confederate Flag mixed up.

The Rebel flag, which is the one Cork GAA fans fly was not conceived to represent white supremacy.

I'm not saying it hasn't since been used to represent that, but that wasnt its original intention not is the intended representation being made when flown by a Cork supporter.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 18/06/2020 17:51:10    2281218

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I can't see why not if it was done for a bit of a laugh.

I have 1 for ye what if a Cork fan got a tee-shirt with the rebel flag on it would they take that off him as well."
Which one of the Healy Rae's are you?

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 18/06/2020 17:53:10    2281219

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Are there a few people having 2 different arguments here?

The title of the thread says rebel flag (the red flag with the diagonal blue cross and white stars). This is the only one I've seen at Cork matches.

The OP and many subsequent posts, and the Cork GAA statement use the term Confederate flag (that flag is a blue square on red and white horizontal stripes, like a dumbed down - ironically! - version of the US flag)

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 18/06/2020 17:57:24    2281220

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Are there a few people having 2 different arguments here?

The title of the thread says rebel flag (the red flag with the diagonal blue cross and white stars). This is the only one I've seen at Cork matches.

The OP and many subsequent posts, and the Cork GAA statement use the term Confederate flag (that flag is a blue square on red and white horizontal stripes, like a dumbed down - ironically! - version of the US flag)"
Confederate Battle Flag to give it it's full title, used as a battle flag/banner by the Confederacy during battle, with stars representing the confederate states. The flag you're thinking of is the Stars and Bars.

Can't see why Cork fans couldn't modify the number of stars, to represent the number of All Irelands won for example.

iarmhi_an_mhaith (Westmeath) - Posts: 230 - 18/06/2020 18:19:25    2281221

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Are there a few people having 2 different arguments here?

The title of the thread says rebel flag (the red flag with the diagonal blue cross and white stars). This is the only one I've seen at Cork matches.

The OP and many subsequent posts, and the Cork GAA statement use the term Confederate flag (that flag is a blue square on red and white horizontal stripes, like a dumbed down - ironically! - version of the US flag)"
The "rebel flag" was the flag that the confederate army took into battle during the civil war. There are actually many flags used for the confederacy, more than those 2.

The flag that's taken to Cork games with the blue cross is a white supremacist symbol nowadays because it was used as by the confederate army when they fought in the civil war.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 18/06/2020 18:20:45    2281222

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The "rebel flag" was the flag that the confederate army took into battle during the civil war. There are actually many flags used for the confederacy, more than those 2.

The flag that's taken to Cork games with the blue cross is a white supremacist symbol nowadays because it was used as by the confederate army when they fought in the civil war."
It was also adorned by many US troops from the southern states when they fought in the 2 world wars against fascist regimes.

I guess they wore it as a means by which to identify with their homeland, as opposed to a symbol of the supreme race ideals which they were fighting against.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3834 - 18/06/2020 19:10:43    2281223

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