National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I have been completely consistent.

I have no problem with the Cork County Board not wanting to be associated with slavery and white supremacy. That is my point.

My not having a problem the Dublin crest is not just to do with the passage of time as you incorrectly stated above. I suggest you have a reread of my post and come back to me with the evidence of the millions of people around the world of non Viking descent that continue to be discriminated against by those of Viking descent and those people who have a problem with the Dublin crest and who call for its removal. I wasn't aware that these people exist whereas I don't think you'd even argue that with the Confederate flag there are millions of people who can trace their ancestry to those who were enslaved and they are calling for the Confederate flag to be removed from various places.

One issue, the Confederate flag, is an actual real issue in society and the other, the Dublin crest, is one that you have completely made up.

It isn't an issue at all. If people genuinely come forward and make a genuine case then of course I will listen to them, and not just whinge about PC gone mad and snowflakes."
I haven't made it up at all, I'm not even the first poster on this thread to have mentioned it. I have pointed out that the crest of your beloved Dubs could also be construed to have slavery connotations. You're ignoring this because you have no rebuttal to it, other to deflect and pretend that what happened before/during the US civil war is germane to race relations in another country 3000 km away and with a completely different history, while events pertaining to the history of Ireland on the same theme has no bearing on anything whatsoever. It's quite bizarre reasoning at best, but hey, you don't consider it "genuine", so we shouldn't discuss it.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a flatmate of mine a few years back in which he told me that a Celtic cross is a symbol of the far right in Central and Eastern Europe. Yet in Ireland in the 2000s there was quite a trend of people getting tattoos of that same thing, ostensibly on the basis of it being an old symbol of the country.

Should we ask anyone who got that tattoo to remove it? There are plenty of people of Central and Eastern European origin walking round Ireland who could take exception to such a thing. Maybe the GAA should take a stand on the issue? Without discussing it with anyone, of course.

Symbols often mean different things in different national contexts.

And as for the number of "people raising issues", few raised the issue of the clubs named after Mitchel until it appeared in the national media last week. Now it's become an issue and we're debating it here. Who knows, maybe some journo somewhere in the national media may raise the Dub thing, maybe not.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 15/06/2020 17:28:25    2280937

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "I think that here's an example of how unintended offence can be given. The Confederate flag has been flown at Cork games for as long as I can remember, which is quite a long time, and, no doubt, was intended as some light-hearted reference to the Rebel County, with no malice intended.

Unfortunately, it is offensive to a lot of folk and, to be honest, it's something we can do without very well.

I just wish Cork had spoken out earlier so that it doesn't look like a knee-jerk reaction.

Flags, eh ? Who'd've thought flags would be a problem in Ireland ?"
I thought flegs were always the problem not flags

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 438 - 15/06/2020 17:38:02    2280942

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These days, if you say you're a Viking, you'll be arrested and thrown in jail

Breffni39 (Cavan) - Posts: 11649 - 15/06/2020 17:57:19    2280944

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Replying To Gleebo:  "No disliking racism is not a woke thing.

Demanding that anything that has ever offended anyone, anywhere be removed (and some things that haven't) most certainly is. I can't remember ever hearing anyone complain about any of the clubs named after Mitchel until a journalist got hold of it recently, now it seems it's a cause celebre. Go figure. I'm sure that these things will be decided upon in the fullness of time in the correct forums, which are within club committees, AGMs, Bord na nÓg meetings, Annual Congress etc.

I personally think there are other ways to deal with these sorts of things. For instance, the Belgian comic book series Tintin had an album set in the Congo in which some pretty appalling paternalistic and racist stuff was peddled. Instead of banning the book as some advocate, the editions are now reprinted with a parental advisory that the attitudes expressed back in 1929 are not those of today, while some of the more extreme scenes have been redacted.

To me something like that stimulates an actual debate on the how to tackle the topic at hand, rather than merely banning something and then trying to forget it ever existed.

As for the RIC/Black and Tans thing, I wouldn't be so sure. It would have been unthinkable not so long ago that Irish people would have turned out to have seen Queen Liz visit Ireland. It would have been unthinkable that Sinn Féin would be sitting in Stormont. It would have been unthinkable to have heard republicans speaking on broadcast television in either Ireland or Britain.

Given that the Auxiliaries murdered antecedents of mine, I am unlikely to commemorate them any time soon. But you do you."
Kinda hard for people to complain about something before they were made aware of it.
Rename the clubs to Young Irelanders. That way it commemorates when Mitchell seemed sound

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 15/06/2020 17:59:24    2280946

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Replying To extranjero:  "So after a few weeks of protests and riots across the world, your answer is there was never consequences before, so we should just carry on?

You don't think, in an environment where even NASCAR has banned it, a stadium full of people waving that flag in Ireland will just go unreported, completely unnoticed, internationally?

You don't think there could be negative consequences for the GAA, especially in places like the US, Britain?

Do you think it might have an effect on any black or other minorities who are currently members or considering membership of a GAA club, for example places like London or New York?

Do you think any black parents, anywhere, would look at the GAA after that and say, "... that's an organisation I want my child to be a part of..."?"
Jaysus the quickfire round......and still no point made or position stated.

Anyway I've given my views on this topic throughout the thread and I don't intend on going around in circles but I'll do you the courtesy of some brief answers:

So after a few weeks of protests and riots across the world, your answer is there was never consequences before, so we should just carry on?

No, there's a ban in place, I never encouraged anyone to defy the ban.

You don't think, in an environment where even NASCAR has banned it, a stadium full of people waving that flag in Ireland will just go unreported, completely unnoticed, internationally?

Could do, I don't know, but personally I have very little trust in the news anyway, I largely shun it.

You don't think there could be negative consequences for the GAA, especially in places like the US, Britain?

No idea.

Do you think it might have an effect on any black or other minorities who are currently members or considering membership of a GAA club, for example places like London or New York?

I would sincerely hope not, the Gaa should be open to all.

Do you think any black parents, anywhere, would look at the GAA after that and say, "... that's an organisation I want my child to be a part of..."?

I would sincerely hope not, the Gaa should be open to all.


I'll only ask you one question and see will you do me the same courtesy:

Do you believe somebody who waved a confederate flag at a Cork game was likely doing so in support of Cork or slavery?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8427 - 15/06/2020 18:02:56    2280947

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Dublin have been All Ireland champions for longer than the confederacy existed. The only reason it's still a thing is white supremacy and the flag is used to represent that. It should be banned and to be honest I have idea why any Irish person would care. Ignorance is no excuse either.

Breffni39 (Cavan) - Posts: 11649 - 15/06/2020 18:06:14    2280948

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I haven't made it up at all, I'm not even the first poster on this thread to have mentioned it. I have pointed out that the crest of your beloved Dubs could also be construed to have slavery connotations. You're ignoring this because you have no rebuttal to it, other to deflect and pretend that what happened before/during the US civil war is germane to race relations in another country 3000 km away and with a completely different history, while events pertaining to the history of Ireland on the same theme has no bearing on anything whatsoever. It's quite bizarre reasoning at best, but hey, you don't consider it "genuine", so we shouldn't discuss it.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a flatmate of mine a few years back in which he told me that a Celtic cross is a symbol of the far right in Central and Eastern Europe. Yet in Ireland in the 2000s there was quite a trend of people getting tattoos of that same thing, ostensibly on the basis of it being an old symbol of the country.

Should we ask anyone who got that tattoo to remove it? There are plenty of people of Central and Eastern European origin walking round Ireland who could take exception to such a thing. Maybe the GAA should take a stand on the issue? Without discussing it with anyone, of course.

Symbols often mean different things in different national contexts.

And as for the number of "people raising issues", few raised the issue of the clubs named after Mitchel until it appeared in the national media last week. Now it's become an issue and we're debating it here. Who knows, maybe some journo somewhere in the national media may raise the Dub thing, maybe not."
I've asked you to show me the instances of non-Viking people's continued discrimination against in Ireland and around the world but you can't.

I've tried to engaged you in your crusade to argue that the Viking longboat on the Dublin Crest is equivalent but you haven't answered any of my questions as regards the widespread offence that you seem to think it causes.

Make your argument as to why your imagined and made up people that are offended by the Dubs crest are equivalent to the real people in the world that are offended by the Confederate flag.

You are putting imagined people's feelings on a par with millions of real people's feelings. That's a really weird and strange thing to do.

What is it about those real people that means their feelings are only as important to you as made up people's feelings?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 15/06/2020 18:16:42    2280952

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Replying To Superglue:  "Kinda hard for people to complain about something before they were made aware of it.
Rename the clubs to Young Irelanders. That way it commemorates when Mitchell seemed sound"
Yeah you can only be offended if you're offended before you know anything about the issue seems to be the position that some of the pro-Confederacy flag posters have tied themselves up in.

Makes sense.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13009 - 15/06/2020 18:20:49    2280953

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Replying To Breffni39:  "Dublin have been All Ireland champions for longer than the confederacy existed. The only reason it's still a thing is white supremacy and the flag is used to represent that. It should be banned and to be honest I have idea why any Irish person would care. Ignorance is no excuse either."
And why would an Irish person care if it was waved at a Cork game so?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 15/06/2020 19:44:06    2280960

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what about all the teams and pitches names after religious people..hasn't religion caused the most unrest worldwide. Haven't religious leaders caused harm and suffering to young people that play and attend these clubs? Where have the protests been to rename all these clubs,pitches,schools...surely thats as important as a flag or some lad who lived 100 years ago. Some of these atrocities have happened in the non so distant past.

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1448 - 15/06/2020 21:19:05    2280972

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "And why would an Irish person care if it was waved at a Cork game so?"
Your response "why would an Irish person care" would be valid if we are an insular, inward looking, nation of navel gazers but hopefully we are more than that, with a more global perspective, realising that celebration of diversity is our true worth and conversely not caring impoverishes us.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 170 - 15/06/2020 21:48:46    2280977

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Replying To Superglue:  "Kinda hard for people to complain about something before they were made aware of it.
Rename the clubs to Young Irelanders. That way it commemorates when Mitchell seemed sound"
A very good point a rename to Young Islanders is a very good substitute.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4328 - 15/06/2020 22:07:14    2280978

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Your response "why would an Irish person care" would be valid if we are an insular, inward looking, nation of navel gazers but hopefully we are more than that, with a more global perspective, realising that celebration of diversity is our true worth and conversely not caring impoverishes us."
But wouldn't people from Ireland waving a rebel flag from the southern states of America at a gaa game in Ireland in it self be
" diverse "?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10999 - 15/06/2020 22:42:37    2280980

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I haven't made it up at all, I'm not even the first poster on this thread to have mentioned it. I have pointed out that the crest of your beloved Dubs could also be construed to have slavery connotations. You're ignoring this because you have no rebuttal to it, other to deflect and pretend that what happened before/during the US civil war is germane to race relations in another country 3000 km away and with a completely different history, while events pertaining to the history of Ireland on the same theme has no bearing on anything whatsoever. It's quite bizarre reasoning at best, but hey, you don't consider it "genuine", so we shouldn't discuss it.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a flatmate of mine a few years back in which he told me that a Celtic cross is a symbol of the far right in Central and Eastern Europe. Yet in Ireland in the 2000s there was quite a trend of people getting tattoos of that same thing, ostensibly on the basis of it being an old symbol of the country.

Should we ask anyone who got that tattoo to remove it? There are plenty of people of Central and Eastern European origin walking round Ireland who could take exception to such a thing. Maybe the GAA should take a stand on the issue? Without discussing it with anyone, of course.

Symbols often mean different things in different national contexts.

And as for the number of "people raising issues", few raised the issue of the clubs named after Mitchel until it appeared in the national media last week. Now it's become an issue and we're debating it here. Who knows, maybe some journo somewhere in the national media may raise the Dub thing, maybe not."
Are you seriously suggesting the Viking boat on the Dublin Crest is a racist emblem? Against who exactly is/was this symbol of racism directed at? Who is groaning under the weight of this symbol of oppression? Who where the slaves? They where from this country, they where also defeated Vikings, Saxons etc etc. We benefitted from Slavery, Slavery was a currency in the early middle ages we where damn good at it. Brian Boru's name means Brian of the Tributes and how was that tribute paid for by the vikings? You are talking about an age in which all practised slavery including us, there was no Irish then. How did St patrick get here? This is ridiculous BTW Dun Laoire and Rathdown and Fingal County also have them and Longford is named after them. So please try a little harder. You may need to expand your purge of Viking emblems, Roscommon's Raven and in our purge of GAA emblems don't forget Kerry, the boat looks like a viking ship but that is St Brendan the Navigator.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4328 - 16/06/2020 00:35:15    2280983

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Your response "why would an Irish person care" would be valid if we are an insular, inward looking, nation of navel gazers but hopefully we are more than that, with a more global perspective, realising that celebration of diversity is our true worth and conversely not caring impoverishes us."
There you have it, despite all the usual arguments it boils down to the simple argument - what do we care about black lads in America and how they are treated, its not our problem in Ireland and its up to us if we want to wave this flag. Of course he is not a racist because he gives money to famine relief in Africa and he had a grand uncle who went on the missions there. Sure its all grand then isn't it.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 795 - 16/06/2020 01:16:11    2280984

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I am not sure if this link works but it is an excellent article written by Prof Gerry Murphy, an out and out Cork GAA man. This was written back in 2017 and remains relevant today.
White strikes me as strange is that all those advocating the opposite to this are not from Cork and as they said the people who were bringing those flags have now stopped. It is difficult to understand why this is not getting through to some people on this forum and the only thing I can think of is that underneath it all lies racism

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-irish-mail-on-sunday/20170820/282016147442980

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 795 - 16/06/2020 02:04:29    2280986

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You know if some of these other problematic names or symbols are subsequently removed in the future, then it will be because they also deserve to be."
Should GAA club names be called after the town or village only (not green Irish freedom fighters) ?

In Ulster for example, should the GAA try to appeal to the Unionist community to participate in its games ? - I don't see club names like Na Piarsaigh reflective of a shared society !

I note the recently formed new club in East Belfast is generic in name.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1799 - 16/06/2020 04:12:34    2280989

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Replying To wishfulthinkin:  "what about all the teams and pitches names after religious people..hasn't religion caused the most unrest worldwide. Haven't religious leaders caused harm and suffering to young people that play and attend these clubs? Where have the protests been to rename all these clubs,pitches,schools...surely thats as important as a flag or some lad who lived 100 years ago. Some of these atrocities have happened in the non so distant past."
If you can get a protest started on this Im with you. Can we tear down a few grottos along the way

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 903 - 16/06/2020 07:58:54    2280992

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I've asked you to show me the instances of non-Viking people's continued discrimination against in Ireland and around the world but you can't.

I've tried to engaged you in your crusade to argue that the Viking longboat on the Dublin Crest is equivalent but you haven't answered any of my questions as regards the widespread offence that you seem to think it causes.

Make your argument as to why your imagined and made up people that are offended by the Dubs crest are equivalent to the real people in the world that are offended by the Confederate flag.

You are putting imagined people's feelings on a par with millions of real people's feelings. That's a really weird and strange thing to do.

What is it about those real people that means their feelings are only as important to you as made up people's feelings?"
I imagine there are millions of people walking round Ireland who get terribly upset at the idea of the Cork fans waving a flag right enough. Do you have any data to support your contention that it causes such widespread offence in Ireland? Like a poll, perhaps?

Actually, don't bother. I've had enough arguments over the years with woke types to realize that they tend to put feelings, real or imagined, over data anyway.

You and I are obviously poles apart on this and quite frankly, I've little desire to engage in a further dialogue of the deaf.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1796 - 16/06/2020 08:18:56    2280993

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Replying To Superglue:  "How many would defend Mitchell the same way if it turned out he was an informer instead of a racist?"
That's a fair point.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 16599 - 16/06/2020 08:47:27    2280994

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