National Forum

National HL Paper review

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Sweeney has a piece in today's independent criticising the NHL set up.one point is Westmeath didn't choose to be effectively promoted from division 3 to division 1 as 2a and 2a are in real terms.remember last year Cork defeated Kilkenny in A relegation play off while Westmeath were promised the idea of the promotion from 2a to 1 a was they were guaranteed two years in division 1 but what happens they face a play off with Carlow to see who stays up.
A far better NHL structure would be five divisions instead of six, two up and two down,top two to finals.
Division 1 :Limerick,Tipp, Waterford, Galway,Clare, Kilkenny,Cork, Wexford.

Division 2 :Dublin,Laois,Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim,Kerry,Offaly,Meath.

Division 3:Wicklow,Mayo,Derry,Down, Kildare, Roscommon,London.

Division 4 Warwickshire,Armagh,Donegal,Tyrone, Longford, Monaghan.

Division 5 Sligo,Letrim, Lancashire,Cavan, Fermanagh,Louth.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 736 - 02/03/2020 14:00:12    2271661

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If I see his name on a article i don't read it, just sensation journalism seems to be his go to

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 2058 - 02/03/2020 14:17:23    2271670

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Replying To wexico15:  "If I see his name on a article i don't read it, just sensation journalism seems to be his go to"
Maybe just a bit harsh but I'd definitely question his knowledge of hurling.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 242 - 02/03/2020 15:11:41    2271691

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Maybe just a bit harsh but I'd definitely question his knowledge of hurling."
Agreed but he has a point the above league's would be more competitive

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 736 - 02/03/2020 20:42:52    2271789

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Replying To jobber:  "Agreed but he has a point the above league's would be more competitive"
Didn't see the article but the leagues listed up there would be a terrible system. Year 1 you might have Wexford and Cork relegated, and Dublin and Laois promoted. The following year you would be almost guaranteed to have Wexford and Cork promoted, and Laois and 1 other relegated. There isn't much wrong with the current system, it allows teams prepare for championship and for developing teams to have a reasonable chance of being promoted to play the big guns and keep their place there.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2379 - 02/03/2020 21:09:55    2271795

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Maybe just a bit harsh but I'd definitely question his knowledge of hurling."
And his knowledge of rugby

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1225 - 02/03/2020 22:02:14    2271805

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Replying To wexico15:  "If I see his name on a article i don't read it, just sensation journalism seems to be his go to"
No different to .most journalists nowadays. They need to take a contrary view just to stay "relevant". It doesn't matter if the contrary view makes sense or is nonsense as long as it makes copy.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1386 - 02/03/2020 23:00:40    2271818

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Replying To Soma:  "Didn't see the article but the leagues listed up there would be a terrible system. Year 1 you might have Wexford and Cork relegated, and Dublin and Laois promoted. The following year you would be almost guaranteed to have Wexford and Cork promoted, and Laois and 1 other relegated. There isn't much wrong with the current system, it allows teams prepare for championship and for developing teams to have a reasonable chance of being promoted to play the big guns and keep their place there."
The league's in themselves would be far more competitive than now as clearly it could only be top 2 to final.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 736 - 02/03/2020 23:15:08    2271821

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I agree the current NHL top 12 is about right.
For further improvement, I'd go with the following -

1) Switch Galway for Clare in 2020 NHL to leave revised groups forming 2 Prov Championships of 6 teams (Wmeath guesting in Muns).
2) Then, for fixture variety, the NHL could have the remaining inter-group pairings, 'Muns 6 v Lein 6'.
3) After 5-match Prov groups, top 2 in each to Prov Finals, with both Champs to AI QFs.
4) Also, top 6 of 12 (11-match record, incl carryover of prior NHL 6-match record) to AI QFs (Prov Champs advancing twice get a bye to AI SFs).
5) In NHL KO, top 4 of 12 '6-match inter-group' records join top 4 of 12 (11-match record, incl carryover of prior Prov 5-match record) to NHL QFs (teams advancing twice get a bye to NHL SFs).
6) Note - 11-match records will only be possible for 'most' of the 12 teams (those not the one team relegated after either the Prov or NHL group phases in the revolving 11-match cycle).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1774 - 02/03/2020 23:21:27    2271825

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The leagues sweeney is mooting was the model used in the past which served us well if im asked. The top 2 in Div 1 went into semis and third and fourth in Div 1 played top 2 in Div 2 in quarter finals.
You could argue the same for football used be quarter finals with top 4 in div 1 , top 2 in div 2 , top of Div 3 and 4 in quarters. threw up some novel pairings especially div 4 winner v div 1 team.

hurler32 (Limerick) - Posts: 837 - 03/03/2020 10:00:01    2271876

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I read one of his articles last summer and it was appalling.
Don't pay him any heed.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 621 - 04/03/2020 10:58:34    2272141

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Given the weather impact in the last two years, should the GAA build in more off weeks within the same time interval ?

This can be done with smaller groups within both codes -
Div 1 (A5 + B5)
Div 2 (A5 + B5)
Div 3 (Foot North 6 + South 6; Hurl A5 + B5)
Div 4 (Hurl 5)

Mostly 4 games per team.
Group winners to respective Div Finals.
Group lasts go down / Div Finalists (ex div 1) go up.
Group 3rds & 4ths switch groups within each div.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1774 - 06/03/2020 20:23:28    2272531

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Replying To hurler32:  "The leagues sweeney is mooting was the model used in the past which served us well if im asked. The top 2 in Div 1 went into semis and third and fourth in Div 1 played top 2 in Div 2 in quarter finals.
You could argue the same for football used be quarter finals with top 4 in div 1 , top 2 in div 2 , top of Div 3 and 4 in quarters. threw up some novel pairings especially div 4 winner v div 1 team."
Why do people think it makes sense for 2nd in div 2 (or 4th in past seasons) to get into knockout stages ahead of 5th in div 1. It always has been a ludicrous thing.
Had it been Dublin who won the joe mcdonagh cup last year and knocked out laois in a prelim quarter final there would be uproar that they got an easy passage through. I don't know how the GAA comes up with these things.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2840 - 08/03/2020 20:07:05    2272889

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Why do people think it makes sense for 2nd in div 2 (or 4th in past seasons) to get into knockout stages ahead of 5th in div 1. It always has been a ludicrous thing.
Had it been Dublin who won the joe mcdonagh cup last year and knocked out laois in a prelim quarter final there would be uproar that they got an easy passage through. I don't know how the GAA comes up with these things."
It was most likely a way to get the vote through. I don't mind it to be honest most years it won't make much difference and if the JoeMcD teams do get good enough to win every year then the system worked and we can bring these guys into Liam full time

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 685 - 08/03/2020 20:58:31    2272900

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Replying To Breezy:  "It was most likely a way to get the vote through. I don't mind it to be honest most years it won't make much difference and if the JoeMcD teams do get good enough to win every year then the system worked and we can bring these guys into Liam full time"
yeah you can bet it was to get things through a vote.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3687 - 09/03/2020 13:24:54    2273016

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Replying To Soma:  "Didn't see the article but the leagues listed up there would be a terrible system. Year 1 you might have Wexford and Cork relegated, and Dublin and Laois promoted. The following year you would be almost guaranteed to have Wexford and Cork promoted, and Laois and 1 other relegated. There isn't much wrong with the current system, it allows teams prepare for championship and for developing teams to have a reasonable chance of being promoted to play the big guns and keep their place there."
You could have Wex v Laois and Cork v Dub playoffs there - weak teams need to earn their way up - or have 1 up/1 down with 3rd last hosting lower div 3rd and 2nd last away at lower div 2nd.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1774 - 09/03/2020 17:10:26    2273093

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Whatever type of league format is used, it definitely shouldn't have a quarter-final stage, And I'd argue it shouldn't even have a semi-final stage. If you have to have 2 equal league groupings as div 1, just have the top 2 teams play the final. I'd even go further and have an 8 team top division with no final, just the top team wins. Because its supposed to be a league. But if that can't be, it should really just have a final at maximum.
And if there are 'dead rubbers', so what? Teams will still try out new players in such games. And the way the leagues have been working out, you'll still have numerous teams in the run for top position, or trying to avoid relegation, at the last round. You can't engineer a league make over 50% of league placings be rewarded, and still call it a league, nevermind calling it competitive.

But they can't keep expanding the number of championship games every year, and putting April aside for club games, AND have the same league with knockout stages. This year, it started in mid January, been played in bad conditions, and most teams are now out of the league, and have up to 10 weeks until the next competitive game. But the league knockout rounds take up the whole of March, it doesn't make sense.

All counties should have the same amount of games in the league, they're all preparing for the championship. And thats ultimately what the league is about

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1749 - 09/03/2020 17:50:01    2273106

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Yes - having most teams playing the same number of games is desirable. Given the weather, maybe a smaller NHL schedule (e.g.. 5 team groups) played over an unchanged time interval would work.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1774 - 10/03/2020 17:24:00    2273274

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